How Do You Know The Bible Is True?

Author: Yassine

Posts

Total: 494
#151
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
I haven't run away. I am still here waiting for you to post something that requires me to respond. I don't as a rule respond to attacks of a personal nature.  I will respond to matters of a religious nature - in accordance with the terms of this forum. I will however ignore any posts that are directed of a personal nature. 

 
#152
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
If there is an actual GOD, I would expect it to be omni-sensible.....Rather than the one of whacky biblical stuff.
Would you to care to explain what omni-sensible is? 

Though my only hedge betting, is that GOD might actually represent an inevitable evolutionary creation, process and finale.
Would you care to put that into a sentence that ordinary people might explain? 

So I'm not expecting a floaty about bloke to reappear any time soon.
For the record - neither am I? Does that make me an atheist? 

And of course everything might just be pure chance.

Including the thought in your head that managed to respond perfectly rational to that question.  Hardly! And very unlikely. 

And of course, neither you nor I actually have a clue....And neither did those that contrived the particular tale that you are hedging your bets on.
You can certainly speak for yourself about not having a clue. But you cannot speak for me.   I might not know close to everything. In fact I know hardly that much at all. Yet, with what I do know - and have experienced and am able to deduce using reason and logic -  the bible is true and God is real. 

But if it makes you happy....Good.

And I'm happy too.
It has never been about making me or you happy.  It is about something completely different. 


#153
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Repent of your ways - forsake the ignorance of your own wisdom and embrace the wisdom of GOD. 

Speaking of ignorance, you missed the questions that you say you can and do and will answer;
LOL @ you. I never said I would answer these questions for you.   

What did God choose you for?

Well according to Ephesians 1:4 it was so that I might be holy and blameless in his sight.  He goes on to say he predestined me and other believers in accordance with his pleasure and will - to the praise of his glorious grace. 

Why would anyone need to take a "scientific" approach or use "scientific methodology" to what you say of the bible  that it " is so clearly written ,crystal clear in fact" and is "unambiguous"  and that the authors are" extremely clear on what they intended to communicate"?
Anyone with half a brain - understands the scientific approach to reading is the proper way to read books.   People don't just pick up books and read a verse here or a paragraph there to try and understand what the author is trying to say.  If they do - in pretty much the way you do- then people would simply mock them - as I do to you.  

When we are trying to understand what the authors of a book that is written over 2000 years of history and with over 40 authors from cultures in far away lands and with far long ago cultures - it is important to know who they are - why they were writing - who they were writing to - what occasion they were responding too and what kind of genre they were using. To try and understand the bible without these things is silly.  Yes, the bible is for the most part straightforward to read - and is for the most part unambiguous and clear in what they are trying to communicate - but not if you DON'T apply proper methodology to it. 

This is why Charismatics struggle with many parts of the bible and why fundamentalists say lots of crazy things.  They don't use the recognized methodology. They think the Spirit of God will simply let them know what it means. 

The test of a proper methodology is when people using it - come to the same or very close interpretations of a text.  Yet when people relying on the Holy Spirit are the only ones who come to a particular interpretation then it is a pretty big clue they have missed the methodology class. Similarly when people such as yourself are the only ones who come to the distorted understanding of scriptures that you do - and that nobody else can - then it too is a pretty big clue.  

The things I say as a general rule have been tried and tested and people - and scholars around the world can see how I arrived at a certain point.  That you disagree with my points are a problem with you - not with my methodology. 

And what do you do with the information that you get from scripture?
Well it depends what information you are talking about? As a general rule - I try to read a passage, interpret it to understand it, and then ascertain any relevant principles from it - that might be applied to my life.  I try to ascertain whether the principle is a command or a recommendation or some kind of wisdom. I try to ascertain whether it is an encouragement or a correction or a rebuke or a manner of training me for righteousness. I try to ascertain whether it was addressed to me as a person in every generation or whether it was addressed to the people of Israel or to a particular individual.  Or whether it was a principle or prophecy for Jesus. 

There are lots of possibilities for the information I obtain from Scripture. The above is not a comprehensive list. 

#154
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
So what is GOD?...If not the typical picture bible representation that most theists are brought up with.

Made in GODS image as it were.


In your own words and keep it reasonably simple, preferable with out too many scriptural soundbites.....Can you do that?


#155
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret


.
Miss Tradesecret,

YOUR SHEEPISH RUNAWAY QUOTE AGAIN RELATIVE TO MY POST #124:  "I haven't run away. I am still here waiting for you to post something that requires me to respond. I don't as a rule respond to attacks of a personal nature.  I will respond to matters of a religious nature - in accordance with the terms of this forum. I will however ignore any posts that are directed of a personal nature. "

Okay, since you will, let me insert the word "try," to respond to matters of a religious nature, then in my post #124 in showing you running away from posts of a religious nature, then respond to the following in BOLD type to save yourself even further embarrassment!  Ready? 

BEGIN:

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=4&post_number=82  *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=4&post_number=87 *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=4&post_number=89

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=4&post_number=94 *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=103 *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=106

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=117 *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=118 *

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=119

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=120  *

The links above that are not in bold type, were posts that explicitly shows that you cannot defend yourself when I make TRUE comments regarding your runaway status, get it? Yeah, you do. LOL


.




#156
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret


.
Miss Tradesecret,

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #151:  " ......  I will respond to matters of a religious nature ...."

Not only are you the #1 runaway of biblical axioms, you are the #1 LIAR within this Religious Forum as well!!!

Since you "say" you will only respond to religious in nature posts, then the following is a religious in nature post to you that you are finally to respond too in  what Jesus' inspired words say about you being a woman (https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy ), and where you are to directly follow His inspired word herewith: “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp the authority over man, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE.” (Timothy 2:12)

You have embarrassingly RAN AWAY 5 TIMES from this topic of you being a woman as shown, and your position as such to remain SILENT, as shown in the links below with NO REFUTATIONS whatsoever from YOU other than to HIDE from them again, and again, and again, and again, and again!



Miss Tradesecret, you cannot HIDE anymore from your ungodly position as a woman that goes against Jesus' TRUE TEACHINGS relative to a woman in Timothy 2:12, where YOU try to usurp the authority over the superior man, where you are adamantly to remain SILENT instead!  In other simpler terms for you to "maybe" understand, is where do you get the authority as a shown woman to override what Jesus says in Timothy 2:12 ???!!

Dear, the membership is watching, and so is Jesus (Hebrews 4:13) to your next runaway ungodly "excuse" to the question above! LOL!


.

 





#157
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret
@zedvictor4


.


YOUR REVEALING QUOTE POST #154 THAT IS EMBARRASSING AT TIMES TO TRUE CHRISTIANS LIKE MYSELF:  "Made in GODS image as it were."

"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." (Genesis 1:26)

Yes, the ol' made in God's image and likeness, where then we have to accept that God had an anal exit for excrement, a belly button, a penis to pee from, and a prostrate for seminal fluids that He never used, that is, until Jesus as God celestially impregnated His own mother Mary through incestual means in the virgin birth scenario within the Bible.  Of course, I am talking about my Christian God named Jesus, and not Allah god of the muslim faith, which is the same god through Abraham tradition that is as contradicting as you can get, which can be another topic!

Anyway, run these biblical axioms up the flagpole to see if the runaway from biblical axioms Miss Tradesecret will discuss them with you, where she will probably not do it, other than to make more 2nd class womanly excuses to run away from them! LOL

.
#158
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
Well, as I predicted here , Brother>>>#128

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

But I don't doubt the above verse will not apply to the Reverend Munchausen and s/he will have a new definition for the word "liars" and a new translation for what Revelation 21:8 actually means.#128


Tradesecret wrote:  "It does not apply to me in that context". #131
Surely even [...........] you appreciates that [for] verse to apply to me requires that I be a liar?  

It does, and you are. Your own contradictory bio's have proven that..... Reverend Munchausen.



 I reject that God is omni- everything.

Why? Are you denying that god has all of the attributes of someone Omni?

Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all-present. This term means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole of the universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.










#159
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8


See: The Bible is Fiction: A Collection Of Evidence
#160
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret

What did God choose you for?

Well according to Ephesians 1:4 it was so that I might be holy and blameless in his sight.  He goes on to say he predestined me and other believers in accordance with his pleasure and will - to the praise of his glorious grace. 

I asked what god chose you for. Now why you believe he chose you, thicko.




Why would anyone need to take a "scientific" approach or use "scientific methodology" to what you say of the bible  that it " is so clearly written ,crystal clear in fact" and is "unambiguous"  and that the authors are" extremely clear on what they intended to communicate"?
Anyone with half a brain - understands the scientific approach to reading is the proper way to read books. 
Nope. The bible is "just a book of words that don't mean anything" and a book that can't cause anything" and are "crystal clear and unambiguous" according to you.  Therefore there is no reason to take a scientific approach to it. it is not a scientific book of any sort. 


When we are trying to understand what the authors of a book that is written over 2000 years of history.....

 But do you not say this of the bible authors>>.

Tradesecret wrote: 
 "The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate". ? 


Do you not also press home your point with this >>

Tradesecret wrote: "Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all.  It is clear. Crystal clear in fact."   https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4148-why-do-scripter-beleivers-cherry-pick-verses?page=3&post_number=55
Those are your words not mine. yet here you are NOW telling us that one needs to take a "scientific approach"  to something that you claim is simple to read and those authors are" pretty clear about what they want to communicate " concerning what you have also have said is "unambiguous and  crystal clear".. You are simply full of contradictory shite at the end of the day, aren't you Reverend Munchhausen?





And what do you do with the information that you get from scripture?
Well it depends what information you are talking about? As a general rule - I try to read a passage, interpret it to understand it, and then ascertain any relevant principles from it - that might be applied to my life.  I try to ascertain whether the principle is a command or a recommendation or some kind of wisdom. I try to ascertain whether it is an encouragement or a correction or a rebuke or a manner of training me for righteousness. I try to ascertain whether it was addressed to me as a person in every generation or whether it was addressed to the people of Israel or to a particular individual.  Or whether it was a principle or prophecy for Jesus. 
Ok I'll play. And once you have considered and ascertained any relevant principles and to whom it may have been addressed to, what do you do with results and how do you use your own findings that you have gleaned from your "scientific" studies of the bible?










#161
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Do you always like your own pages?  LOL!

Why would anyone need to take a "scientific" approach or use "scientific methodology" to what you say of the bible  that it " is so clearly written ,crystal clear in fact" and is "unambiguous"  and that the authors are" extremely clear on what they intended to communicate"?
Anyone with half a brain - understands the scientific approach to reading is the proper way to read books. 
Nope. The bible is "just a book of words that don't mean anything" and a book that can't cause anything" and are "crystal clear and unambiguous" according to you.  Therefore there is no reason to take a scientific approach to it. it is not a scientific book of any sort. 

don't attribute words to me that are your interpretation of what I wrote.  At least put some context to it. If you are able to.  

The Bible is clear. No issues.  Yet if you choose to read it in a manner that it was never meant to be read - then it won't be crystal clear.  This does not mean it was not written clearly.  I see no point in continuing this conversation. You agree with me anyway - you just don't want to apply the same standards you do to other books to the bible - because - then you won't be able to articulate your made up secrets about the bible.  
#162
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret


Why would anyone need to take a "scientific" approach or use "scientific methodology" to what you say of the bible  that it " is so clearly written ,crystal clear in fact" and is "unambiguous"  and that the authors are" extremely clear on what they intended to communicate"?
Anyone with half a brain - understands the scientific approach to reading is the proper way to read books. 
Nope. The bible is "just a book of words that don't mean anything" and a book that can't cause anything" and are "crystal clear and unambiguous" according to you.  Therefore there is no reason to take a scientific approach to it. it is not a scientific book of any sort. 

don't attribute words to me that are your interpretation of what I wrote. 

So are you denying that it is YOU that says of words in the bible that:  "Words are words. And that is all they are". #45  Tradesecret?  <<< this is YOU, Reverend Reverend Munchhausen and the substance and the context is there in the link for anyone to read for themselves.

Are you also denying that it is YOU that says of the bible: "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything" .#3  Tradesecret? <<<<< this is YOU, Reverend Munchhausen and the substance and the context is there in the link for anyone to read for themselves.

Are you also denying that it is YOU that says of the bible : " But the fact is most of it is pretty easy to understand and interpret......The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate" #62 Tradesecret <<<<< this is YOU, Reverend Reverend Munchhausen and the substance and the context is there in the link for anyone to read for themselves.

Are you also now denying that it is YOU  have categorically stated that:  "Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all.  It is clear. Crystal clear in fact".   #55 Tradesecret<<<<<< this is YOU, Reverend Reverend Munchhausen and the substance and the context is there in the link for anyone to read for themselves.


And  NOW  YOUR most recent claim about the bible is: "  The Bible is clear."#161 Tradesecret <<<<<< this is YOU, Reverend Reverend Munchhausen and the substance and the context is there in the link for anyone to read for themselves.

If all the above are as you have categorically stated, then why are you claiming that one has to take a "scientific approach" to something so crystal clear, unambiguous, from a book that is full of "just full word that can't cause anything"?

I see no point in continuing this conversation.

Well of course you don't. You have been caught out again for the contradictory bible dunce that you clearly are.

As I have been saying from the day I joined here, that Bible/The New Testament is full of contradictory nonsense.  It is full of half ambiguous and enigmatic stories and sayings that do not make a single bit of sense on the surface.  But you insist that is is "crystal clear and  that the authors make themselves clear on what they want to convey"..  You are a fkn clown,Reverend Munchhausen and I am sure that many reading here can see you for the lying contradictory clown that you are.


And what do you do with the information that you get from scripture?
Well it depends what information you are talking about? As a general rule - I try to read a passage, interpret it to understand it, and then ascertain any relevant principles from it - that might be applied to my life.  I try to ascertain whether the principle is a command or a recommendation or some kind of wisdom. I try to ascertain whether it is an encouragement or a correction or a rebuke or a manner of training me for righteousness. I try to ascertain whether it was addressed to me as a person in every generation or whether it was addressed to the people of Israel or to a particular individual.  Or whether it was a principle or prophecy for Jesus. 
Ok I'll play. And once you have considered and ascertained any relevant principles and to whom it may have been addressed to, what do you do with results and how do you use your own findings that you have gleaned from your "scientific" studies of the bible?




#163
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret


.
Miss Tradesecret,

You have now sheepishly ran away 6 times as shown in the links below, from not addressing a religious fact of you being a woman and where you are not following Jesus' COMMAND in Timothy 2:12, where you are not to usurp the authority over the superior man, but to be in silence when in this forum!



1.  It is EXPLICITLY SHOWN that you are a woman before you changed your gender to comically "unknown" is herewith:  https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy

2.  The direct words of Jesus state without question that women like YOU are NOT to teach, nor to usurp the authority over the superior man like myself, but to just STFU when men are around, period!  “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp the authority over man, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE.” (Timothy 2:12)


Miss Tradesecret, as usual, you are too SCARED to engage me upon this religious topic because I will once again Bible Slap you Silly®️  in front of the membership! Therefore, since you are the #1 pseudo-christian runaway from Biblical axioms upon this forum, you run and hide and tremble in fear of me outright owning you and your faith again!  LOL!

As if you admitting that you are a sexual DEVIANT wasn't embarrassing enough for you in this forum in the past, now you are trying to outdo that faux pas with you now running away from being a woman and disgracing Jesus' words in Timothy 2:12!   You have no limit in being a complete Bible fool!

.






#164
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
Perhaps if you asked one question at a time it might be helpful.   Even by going back to your first link in this post at this time - demonstrates that I am addressing your points throughout the discussions.

Just because you have nothing better to do that post one post after the next after the next - does not mean that others have the same time. Most of us work and don't sit on our backsides all day doing nothing but posting into forums.  

If I had run away as so often put it - then I would not continue to come back and respond to your posts.  At all. I would just leave or never respond. 

The fact is I do come back and I do respond. Yet if I miss many of your posts it is not because I am running away - it is because I am not omniscient and don't see them all.  Thank by the way for reminding me of this first post.  As it was it - I had answered prior to your linked page - perhaps not satisfying your questions - but answering it all the same. 

The question posed by you - I put into context. This of course - you dismissed because you didn't care about the context - you just wanted me to see the words about God indicating that anyone who curses their mother or their father should be put to death.  I pointed out the context - and the reason why Jesus referred to this. You didn't care about the context. Hence - you don't really care about the words - save and except to use them only in a one dimensional manner that simpletons like to use them.  

I rejected that you understood the law since you don't understand the purpose of the law. Like most simpletons, you look at one line and think you get it. This is why the world is going downwards. Simpletons are dumb. They can't handle things of substance. You can't handle things of substance. 

The purpose of the law is to protect the family unit. The family unit is the significant building block of society.  Male and female and kids. This is called private property law. Socialists of course and communists reject private property and therefore they reject the traditional understanding of the family. So they have distorted it and changed it. Now the family is whatever you want to make it. Two boys. Two girls. three of whatever. Kids from everywhere. Social contract is the basis.  No apparent hierarchy. Every one is equal. Hence for someone to curse their parents - is ok. And acceptable because parents don't have any authority. And as such kids do whatever they want. 

God on the other hand - set up laws to protect the family unit.  For God as it is for me - it is highly valuable and therefore the punishment for trying to destroy should be the highest penalty.  For me the higher the penalty - the greater the crime. Cursing parents is entirely a significant offence and should be treated as such. 

Jesus' point in the context as I highlighted was the difference between God's rules and human rules.  I knew you would not understand. I was hopeful that even a simpleton like yourself would still get the gravitas of such reasoning. Nevertheless, you dashed my hopes as you have done on other occasions.  

God's rules protect society.  Human rules tend to be culturally relevant to a particular time. Hence - their ceremonial washing. Their fasting. Both have their places even as many of our cultural rules have their place - but to come down hard on one - especially a man made rule which is only cultural - while at the same time neglecting the more important rules is the act of simpletons.  You seem to side with the pharisees over Jesus. Despite your mocking pretense of being with Jesus. 




#165
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret


.
Miss Tradesecret,


YOUR QUOTE IN POST #164  AT YOUR EMBARRASSING EXPENSE ONCE AGAIN: "Perhaps if you asked one question at a time it might be helpful."

If you have a genetic precondition at birth where your available thinking processes can't address more than one question at a time, or because of you not being able to do so and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, then let the membership know of this fact and we will adjust to your grade-school modus operandi condition, okay?  We are also here to help the Biblically mentally challenged like you.

The post to you regarding the topic at hand, which is "if a parents offspring curse them they should be murdered" was posted by me WAY BACK in February 25, 2022, which was 12 days ago! LOL!   Therefore, I have the right in telling you that YOU RAN AWAY from said post shown herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=4&post_number=82   

Nonetheless, your Bible stupidity is with you at all times with yet another long-winded lame attorney dissertation in your post #164 relative to offspring that curse their parents should DIE. This could have been deduced to one paragraph AGAIN, but since your English skills always go severely wanting, we have to read through your devoid tripe of 7 PARAGRAPHS, where again, you did not mention whatsoever that the offspring should be murdered in the said incident! SCARED of Jesus' true words again, runaway!

Here, let me easily school you quickly: “For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.” (Matthew 15:4).

Since the New Testament verse shown above is where Jesus COMMANDED that a parents offspring that curse them must surely die, then do you agree with this Jesus biblical axiom?  Furthermore, if your offspring, God forbid if you have any, cursed you, would you murder them in the name of Jesus to follow Jesus' COMMAND to do so in Matthew 15:4?  BEGIN: 



YOUR CONTINUED EMBARRASSING QUOTE IN POST #49: "As it was it - I had answered prior to your linked page - perhaps not satisfying your questions - but answering it all the same."

Surely you jest in thinking that you answered the topic at hand in your lacking post #49!!!  NOT!  You did not address again the main infraction that if parents are  cursed by their offspring, they are to be murdered as the verse in question specifically states! H-E-L-L-O? Read your lacking post link below where this is true you runaway Bible fool!


.





#166
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
It's not that I can't answer more than one at a time. It's that it will take more than one post at a time. You might have hours to waste on a forum. I don't. 

This is why I asked you in the past to start your own threads - and which you just NEVER wanted to do - because you though I was trying to get you banned.  I don't report people.  I don't want you to run away or get banned.  I can't say I like you. But this does not mean I want you banned. 

I just happen to think the questions you raise - religious questions - seeking an understanding of what the bible says is important enough to give proper respect and time to. You might think it is all a big joke. You might like to try and find ways to ban me. That is your very immature perspective on life. But it is not mine. And never has been. 

Your responses are the ones which are in jest.  It is you who continues to be schooled.  I know you dislike this. but the facts speak for themselves. 

Please - let's discuss one at a time. Without the accusations. Without the scorn. As people who really do wish to discuss the passage and the truth of it. Are you able to do so? 

Let's begin with the cursing parents one. Although I have addressed it - perhaps you can comment about maximum penalties - or the value of family - or the seriousness of relationships or the change in philosophy from biblical to modern to post modern. Or the understanding of covenant. Rather than trying to seize on one word and make it all about that - let's actually have an exchange of ideas - rather than always trying to score points - winning at all costs.  Is that even possible for you? 


#167
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret


MIss Tradesecret,

First things first, since you are in discussion with men within this forum, therefore you go directly against Jesus' command in Timothy 2:12 since you are explicitly shown to be a woman in this link;  https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy and where YOU are therefore not to usurp the authority, nor teach, but to remain silent when around men within this forum!  

With the above TRUTH being said regarding your continued biblical ignorance relative to the wants of Jesus the Christ shown above, and if this wasn't embarrassing enough for you, then you once again left out the main premise in your wanting post #166 of Jesus commanding that any offspring that curse their parents should die!  As if this biblical axiom is going to disappear for you, of which at your continued expense, it will not!:  “For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.” (Matthew 15:4)

Simply answer the following questions:

1.  Tell us, why are you so SCARED to show Jesus as an accomplice in murdering the offspring that curse their parents in Matthew 15:4?

2.  Do you agree with Jesus' biblical axiom of murdering offspring that curse their parents?

3.   If you have offspring, God forbid if you do, and they cursed you, would you murder them in the name of Jesus' command to do so in Matthew 15:4?  And if not, where do you get the authority to usurp Jesus' command in this respect?!

Whoops, I am sorry, damn it, but I asked more than one question at this juncture to you!  Since you stated that obviously you can't handle more than one question from me at a time, as embarrassingly shown in this link:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317599  can you at least "try" and answer the 2nd and 3rd one to hurry this discussion along at your continued expense?   Or, if need be, I can help you answer the additional questions  because I am also here to help the mentally challenged of the JUDEO-Christian Bible like you fully represent within this forum ad infinitum, okay? You can thank me later. 

BEGIN:


.


#168
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
the Bible is from God and worthy of being read by itself without the distortion of others 


So can it be taken literally then?



#169
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
the Bible is from God and worthy of being read by itself without the distortion of others 


So can it be taken literally then?
Are you asking me to explain this again?

If we are using the word "literal" it is used in contrast to the allegorical or mystical point of view.  In other words, do we take the words that are written at face value - v a mystical understanding of them. 

Face Value does not mean without context, understanding who the author is, who he is writing to, the purpose or occasion of why they are writing, the type of genre being used.  For instance - the Lord is my shepherd. Does this mean God is a literal shepherd and that I must be a literal sheep? Of course not. It is a metaphor isn't? It's poetry isn't?  Yet on face value - the literal usage of the word means we don't have to go deeper and more mystical or look for code words to explain what shepherd or sheep means?  

A mystical allegorical approach is when the readers try to use words as code words, or interpretations that only the inside people know, it is the approach used by the Eastern Church initially - and by many people in history trying to find deeper and magical or mystical understandings of the bible - like Newton and his numbers theories. Or the fundamentalists using newspaper interpretations. Or code word like Lion and sheep and eagle etc.  Yes the bible contains - symbols and imagery.  Yet, not code words or magic number systems.  Yes, the language of the Hebrews and the Greeks does at times use numbers - and perhaps at times there are more covert points - but overall - this will depend upon the author, the audience, and the purpose.  Revelation for instance was written to a people who were being persecuted by the Romans - there would be a reason to perhaps be a little more circumspect with language. Yet the Gospels are not written in such a manner.  And lots of the bible is not written similarly, Context Context Context. 

Nevertheless, I get the idea - you want to use the word "literal" as another type of genre - which it is not.  There is no genre called literal. There is narrative. There is poetry. There is history. There is wisdom. There are letters. There are metaphors. There are gospels.  And prophetic language. Or apochrophal. But LITERAL is not one of them.  

so the Bible is written clearly ( for the most part).  It is not a mystical book per se. 
#170
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
First things first, since you are in discussion with men within this forum, therefore you go directly against Jesus' command in Timothy 2:12 since you are explicitly shown to be a woman in this link;  https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy and where YOU are therefore not to usurp the authority, nor teach, but to remain silent when around men within this forum!  
Firstly, Brother Fake persona, I am not a woman. Secondly, We are not in church. Thirdly, Even if we were in church, this command is not for females to be silent per se - it does not prevent singing, praying, nor speaking to their children. It is a command only to those in the higher levels shouting down to the lower levels - thus causing disruption. Since at the time - it was only woman and their children upstairs - and all the men were down with the rest of the men, there was no need to tell the men to stop disrupting. 

With the above TRUTH being said regarding your continued biblical ignorance relative to the wants of Jesus the Christ shown above, and if this wasn't embarrassing enough for you, then you once again left out the main premise in your wanting post #166 of Jesus commanding that any offspring that curse their parents should die!  As if this biblical axiom is going to disappear for you, of which at your continued expense, it will not!:  “For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.” (Matthew 15:4)
I think anyone who curses their parents has done the wrong thing. It is to suggest that parents are permitted to be harmed by their children. The harsher the penalty, the more serious the crime. Obviously, you think cursing your parents is nothing to worry about. God has a different view and so do I.  The words "Must surely" I have also explained in another place is - a covenantal phraze. In the Hebrew the words if translated woodenly, would say "dying, you shall die". In other words, you are already dying because of your actions, this will bring you to full death.  Now the proper response from you is "oink oink". 



Simply answer the following questions:

1.  Tell us, why are you so SCARED to show Jesus as an accomplice in murdering the offspring that curse their parents in Matthew 15:4?

What is there to be fearful off.  The Bible believes in the death penalty. So does the USA.  Nevertheless, the death penalty is not murder.  Abortion is. But the death penalty is not. It is the legal killing of a person by the state.  Jesus agrees with the proper and lawful killing of people who break the law in certain circumstances.  Matthew 15:4 also does not have any one getting killed, does it? 


2.  Do you agree with Jesus' biblical axiom of murdering offspring that curse their parents?
Well I agree with Jesus - but not with your portrayal of it. Murder for instance is an unlawful killing of another person.  The death penalty is the lawful killing of another person.   I also note that this is not an axiom.  It is a legislative provision and it was also culturally relevant to the nation of Israel. 


3.   If you have offspring, God forbid if you do, and they cursed you, would you murder them in the name of Jesus' command to do so in Matthew 15:4?  And if not, where do you get the authority to usurp Jesus' command in this respect?!
Again, wrong. God does not command any one to murder anyone. In fact God says murder is wrong.  See the 6th commandment.  Jesus never asks any one to murder. He does ask his people to lawfully carry out any sentence imposed that would uphold the law and meet justice.  Hence an eye for an eye. And a tooth for a tooth.  Not an eye for a tooth or a tooth for an eye.  Equal punishment for equal crimes.   Justice has to be seen to be done. 

I don't disagree with God. I disagree with your very dodgy and uninformed view.  The bible contradicts your faulty and fake interpretation. 



Whoops, I am sorry, damn it, but I asked more than one question at this juncture to you!  Since you stated that obviously you can't handle more than one question from me at a time, as embarrassingly shown in this link:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317599  can you at least "try" and answer the 2nd and 3rd one to hurry this discussion along at your continued expense?   Or, if need be, I can help you answer the additional questions  because I am also here to help the mentally challenged of the JUDEO-Christian Bible like you fully represent within this forum ad infinitum, okay? You can thank me later. 

Brother fake persona,  the reason I asked you to give one question at a time is so that we don't distracted by your typical Mormon responses.  Whenever I pin you to the floor, you roll over and find something else to talk about.  You don't like to stick to one topic for too long since as soon I start to respond you panic and ask me about something else - distraction distraction distraction is your motto.   Never stick with one subject. Flit from one to the next.  


#171
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
the Bible is from God and worthy of being read by itself without the distortion of others 


So can it be taken literally then?
Are you asking me to explain this again?
Not that you have explained this to me before but yes, I am asking you a simple yes or no question.


If we are using the word "literal" it is used in contrast to the allegorical or mystical point of view.  In other words, do we take the words that are written at face value - v a mystical understanding of them. 
Ok so that will be no then ?   "Allegorical or mystical " Although you are quick to tell us that:

Tradescret wrote: Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all.  It is clear. Crystal clear in fact.

The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate.

Do you not see what a complete and utter contradictory clown you are Reverend Munchausen?



Face Value does not mean without context, understanding who the author is, who he is writing to, the purpose or occasion of why they are writing, the type of genre being used. 

So then the answer again is no, the bible is not to be taken literally. Something I have been saying since the day I came to the forum.


so the Bible is written clearly ( for the most part).  It is not a mystical book per se. 

You just want it both fkn ways. Particularly when your on the backfoot.


It is not a mystical book

Yet Jesus speaks of teaching the "mysteries" often. Speaks in parables and often does things in secret. 

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.".Matthew 13:11

This implies secret teachings, does it not?  To a chosen few and not for the uninitiated. 

So the bible cannot be taken literally, it is full of ambiguity ,  full enigmatic half stories, full of ambiguous and enigmatic verses  and that is something else I have been saying here from day one:  And it is not as "crystal clear" as you regularly purport it to be , is it you clown? 

You just want to jump in and out as its suites you.

One day you will say you " I do not ever take the bible literally" and another day you will say the bible is to be taken "both literally and none literally".

The fact is that you simply interpret the scriptures as YOU believe them and or been taught to believe them. I, on the other hand am a free thinker, I  do the same... but I believe they tell a completely different story to the wonder working prince of peace that you believe and have faith in and which I have laid out many times in most my own threads.

You just don't like the fact that I am showing that there could be, or is, another side to the NT and Jesus that you do not recognise, accept or like.

Tell me Reverend Munchausen, why have you spent 40 years studying and "memorising" the bible , if it as "crystal clear and unambiguous" as you claim it to be?






#172
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret


.
Stephen, 

OMG, again you show Miss Tradesecrets hypocritical stance upon the JUDEO-Christian Bible to no end relating her contradicting stance upon taking the Bible literally or not!  As you can see with me easily refuting this Bible doofus woman, and in the same vein, she is back in using jabberwocky excuses of taking the literal disturbing passages away into another realm of what they actually say, they don't!  Some of Miss Tradesecrets Devil Speak examples are laughably shown herewith: "The words Must surely I have also explained in another place is - a covenantal phraze. In the Hebrew the words if translated woodenly, would say dying, you shall die. In other words, you are already dying because of your actions, this will bring you to full death, yada, yada, yada.  (Post #170)

Instead of Miss Tradesecret just HIDING from us Bible Slapping her Silly®️ and just running away in silence like she used to do from our superior knowledge of the Bible over her grade-school knowledge of same, she now comes up with the comical gibberish shown above to question, or literally change, the disturbing inspired by Jesus words He spoke within the scriptures!  BLASPHEME!

OMG, seriously, we need Miss Tradesecret here upon this forum for us and the membership to expose her Devil Speak as an example in how NOT to be a Christian, and this is barring the FACT that she is a woman (https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy), where another example is set in that she is NOT to usurp the authority of the man that rules over her, but to be in silence!  (Timothy 2:12)


.
#173
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret



.

Miss Tradesecret,

Addressing your wanting and ever so feeble post #170 one question or refutation at a time at your feeble request;

Since your sophomoric mental state can only handle one question from me at a time, as embarrassingly shown in your link herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317719  I will honor your flustering request to not embarrass you all at once with more than one question or refutation in one post of mine at a time, okay? Therefore, I will take each one of your insipid refutations and/or my questions to you, and make a separate post for them in the hopes that this action will help your child like modus operandi in being just too scared to address them all at once, okay?  You’re welcomed dear.


YOUR QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN NOT ADDRESSING YOUR WOMANHOOD AS SHOWN IN YOUR BIOGRAPHY:   Firstly, Brother Fake persona, I am not a woman.

Barring my alleged fake persona that owns your Bible stupidity outright, you have yet to put this proposition where you say that you are not a woman to rest, and the ramifications thereof pertaining to Timothy 2:12,  other than to run away from it as continually shown in the link below, understood WOMAN?  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317522

Dear Miss Tradesecret,  therefore, I have shown your biography in where your gender is a FEMALE herewith: https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy  Therefore, please tell the membership in why you are not a woman like you say, when your bio says that you are!  BEGIN:


.

#174
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas

OMG, again you show Miss Tradesecrets hypocritical stance upon the JUDEO-Christian Bible to no end relating her contradicting stance upon taking the Bible literally or not!  

Lets be honest, it is not too difficult to do ,Brother. And neither is  it difficult to highlight his/her contradictions.

See here for his/her very latest numbskullery and bible ignorance. #70

#175
BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,145
3
3
7
BrotherD.Thomas's avatar
BrotherD.Thomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret


.
Stephen,

Regarding your post #174, why should the membership not be surprised in Miss Tradesecrets total JUDEO-Christian Bible stupidity pertaining to the omni's of Jesus the Christ! Duh.

As embarrassingly shown once again, Miss Tradesecret ran away from me in schooling her upon Jesus' omni status where my biblical axioms relative to this topic put her into HIDING again in not being able to respond to my post herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337-how-do-you-know-the-bible-is-true?page=5&post_number=120

Stephen, remember what Jesus' inspired words say about the 2nd class woman that Miss Tradesecret fully represents: "The woman Folly is loud; she is seductive and knows nothing." (Proverbs 9:13)".  Truer words were never spoken relative to Miss Tradesecret being a woman as "she knows nothing!" LOL

.




#176
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Religious kids stop loving their mothers WAY WAY to early.

Mums go from meaning everything to the lady at church that makes the sandwiches.

A 10 / 12 year old boy is " closer " to god then a  50 year old women 
I mean. A 12 year old boy trumps any female. 
 I don't know where im going with this now. 
  
I think. 
Moms are way more powerful and important  then any mere god. 

When woukd one stop listening to Mom and " listen " to god. 
When do you think a " religious " kid would realize man are  FAR MORE IMPORTANT then women.  

On a yearly  scale of importance. It goes .
Mom
Mom
Mom
Mom
Mom
Mom
Then  one year it goes to God thennnnnnn mom. 
God 
God 
God
God
God 
Till the end. 

This year of change happens to early with religious people. 

I think.
 
#177
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Oh thats unless your mom beats ya.  

#178
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
 "The woman Folly is loud; she is seductive and knows nothing." (Proverbs 9:13)".  Truer words were never spoken relative to Miss Tradesecret being a woman as "she knows nothing!" LOL

Well I can honestly say, woman or man, male or female, a bit of both, that  verse certainly applies in the case of the self professed Reverend Munchausen, Brother. And deserves a thumbs up.
#179
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherD.Thomas
Addressing your wanting and ever so feeble post #170 one question or refutation at a time at your feeble request;

Since your sophomoric mental state can only handle one question from me at a time, as embarrassingly shown in your link herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317719  I will honor your flustering request to not embarrass you all at once with more than one question or refutation in one post of mine at a time, okay? Therefore, I will take each one of your insipid refutations and/or my questions to you, and make a separate post for them in the hopes that this action will help your child like modus operandi in being just too scared to address them all at once, okay?  You’re welcomed dear.
Excellent Brother, you have surprised the entire forum by acknowledging you are a flitter and desire to do something about it. I know it is only the first step, but it shows some promise. After all, until you admit you have a problem you can't get the help you so obviously need.  So thank you for at least attempting to get back with the program. One topic - question at a time. 

YOUR QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN NOT ADDRESSING YOUR WOMANHOOD AS SHOWN IN YOUR BIOGRAPHY:   Firstly, Brother Fake persona, I am not a woman.

Barring my alleged fake persona that owns your Bible stupidity outright, you have yet to put this proposition where you say that you are not a woman to rest, and the ramifications thereof pertaining to Timothy 2:12,  other than to run away from it as continually shown in the link below, understood WOMAN?  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/7337/post-links/317522

Dear Miss Tradesecret,  therefore, I have shown your biography in where your gender is a FEMALE herewith: https://ibb.co/NFcsLgy  Therefore, please tell the membership in why you are not a woman like you say, when your bio says that you are!  BEGIN:
Nevertheless, it looks like you still are having problems discerning between religious and personal questions.   Ask me a religious question not one related to a personal situation, ok.  Are you able to cope with that distinction? I know it will be hard for you. But asking me about my sexuality is not a religious question. It is personal - and in your case it is not necessary  because I have answered it before by denying I am a female. And secondly, I have asked you to stop referring to it, again your tendency is towards bullying and stalking and  Attacking when it is in fact more pleasant to discuss the religious questions.  I understand that someone of your standing has no capacity to ACTUALLY discuss the religious which is why you continue to be personal in your questions - but even you should be aware now that you come across like a fruit loop - pretty close to young Stephen the stalker. 

So just to be crystal clear. If you want me to engage with you - in a helpful way - then ask religious questions. And not questions relating to me personally. 
#180
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
the Bible is from God and worthy of being read by itself without the distortion of others 


So can it be taken literally then?
Are you asking me to explain this again?
Not that you have explained this to me before but yes, I am asking you a simple yes or no question.


If we are using the word "literal" it is used in contrast to the allegorical or mystical point of view.  In other words, do we take the words that are written at face value - v a mystical understanding of them. 
Ok so that will be no then ?   "Allegorical or mystical " Although you are quick to tell us that:

Tradescret wrote: Well, I for one, do not believe that the bible is ambiguous at all.  It is clear. Crystal clear in fact.

The authors in the bible are pretty clear about what they want to communicate.

Do you not see what a complete and utter contradictory clown you are Reverend Munchausen?



Face Value does not mean without context, understanding who the author is, who he is writing to, the purpose or occasion of why they are writing, the type of genre being used. 

So then the answer again is no, the bible is not to be taken literally. Something I have been saying since the day I came to the forum.


so the Bible is written clearly ( for the most part).  It is not a mystical book per se. 

You just want it both fkn ways. Particularly when your on the backfoot.


It is not a mystical book

Yet Jesus speaks of teaching the "mysteries" often. Speaks in parables and often does things in secret. 

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.".Matthew 13:11

This implies secret teachings, does it not?  To a chosen few and not for the uninitiated. 

So the bible cannot be taken literally, it is full of ambiguity ,  full enigmatic half stories, full of ambiguous and enigmatic verses  and that is something else I have been saying here from day one:  And it is not as "crystal clear" as you regularly purport it to be , is it you clown? 

You just want to jump in and out as its suites you.

One day you will say you " I do not ever take the bible literally" and another day you will say the bible is to be taken "both literally and none literally".

The fact is that you simply interpret the scriptures as YOU believe them and or been taught to believe them. I, on the other hand am a free thinker, I  do the same... but I believe they tell a completely different story to the wonder working prince of peace that you believe and have faith in and which I have laid out many times in most my own threads.

You just don't like the fact that I am showing that there could be, or is, another side to the NT and Jesus that you do not recognise, accept or like.

Tell me Reverend Munchausen, why have you spent 40 years studying and "memorising" the bible , if it as "crystal clear and unambiguous" as you claim it to be?
Stephen, the bible is clear. Yes, let's say that again. It is not a mystical book.  Yes, it a book that needs to be properly read.  I think it is to be read literally as against a mystical understanding. Yet there is no LITERAL genre.  Words are words, aren't they?  You want to add to the words in the Bible with your secret mysticism.  Go ahead. But its not relevant to those who see through your charades and smoke and mirrors. Have I explained this to you before? Absolutely. Yet I doubt you read it the first time around - and I doubted you would do it this time. And reading your responses - it seems you really do have a problem understanding what you are reading.  You are not a free thinker.  You have a copy of the Secret book of Mark and its special mysteries.  LOL @ you for thinking you are a free thinker. Not an original thought in your little brain. 

My views on the other hand are consistent with millions of people around the world.  Anyone with half a brain can find the same conclusions as me, It is not difficult. Yet, if you want to think you are something special and have a mystical understanding - that no one else has - then well Stephen, there you are. Arrogant and a putz all in one thought.  A little bit of humility never hurt anyone.