Is calling someone a coward a ban worthy offense

Author: Outplayz

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bsh1
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@Outplayz
In regards to the hate speech thing... this site is starting to shape up as a perfect example. I personally don't think you can handle policing people's speech bc i don't think anyone can without bias. People can call me stupid all day and i'll just laugh bc i find it funny... You can call someone stupid once and they're devastated. Who do you side with? 
Per a previous site discussion, restrictions on hate speech have been significantly relaxed. No user has been banned for hate speech, period. Similarly, no user has been warned about hate speech since that previous site discussion.

ResurgetExFavilla
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@bsh1
Regardless of the specific situation, the definition that you used is absurdly broad, and represents a typical bait and switch. You say 'I'm going to ban sexual harrasment'. Most people are fine with that, because when you say 'sexual harrasment', we think:

First, lewd or suggestive comments which constitute unwanted advances.
And, maybe:

Second, lewd or suggestive comments designed to make the recipient uncomfortable or to mock the recipient.

Those two are what the word has classically meant, and together encompass the common language understanding that the word carries. However, lo and behold, the fine print holds a definition which basically weasles 'hate speech'-eseque language policing into the definition:

Third, comments targeting a user's sex, sexual attractiveness, sexual performance, or orientation which are designed to make the recipient feel uncomfortable or to mock the recipient
So now 'sexism', making premature ejaculation jokes, calling someone ugly, or saying something that might make gay people feel bad are all 'sexual harrasment'. You've used the rightful opprobrium that people feel over some creep making unwanted lewd advances to people online as a trojan horse to sneak in a bunch of stuff that most people just don't have a problem with. Far from laissez faire moderation, the mods can apparently play mind reader and judge the motives of someone, but they also have such a ludicrously loose definition of what's out of bound that it includes attempts at mockery or making someone 'uncomfortable'.


Outplayz
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@bsh1
Per a previous site discussion, restrictions on hate speech have been significantly relaxed. No user has been banned for hate speech, period. Similarly, no user has been warned about hate speech since that previous site discussion.
Are you sure? Insults are hate speech... you haven't warned anyone for insults? 

Polytheist-Witch
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Sure thing sock puppet
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Everyone is free to go from this pit to the last one. 
bsh1
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I am going to disagree that the third category does not constitute sexual harassment. Other sources consider sexual harassment: "Unwanted sexual teasing, jokes, remarks, or questions," "Asking about sexual fantasies, preferences, or history," "Personal questions about social or sexual life," "Offensive remarks about a person's sex," "Verbal...harassment of a sexual nature," "Harassment based on sexual orientation," and "Telling lies or spreading rumors about a person's personal sex life," among other things. I feel comfortable with the definition of sexual harassment as it stands. But, just as these sources note, action on sexual harassment violations will only occur when it is deemed severe or incessant. 
bsh1
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@Outplayz
Are you sure? Insults are hate speech... you haven't warned anyone for insults? 
Hate speech is insulting, but not all insults are hate speech. Questioning whether I am sure is a bit insulting, as it implies I am either lying or unable to recall my own actions. I will repeat: "No user has been banned for hate speech, period. Similarly, no user has been warned about hate speech since that previous site discussion."
Castin
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Considering that, by bsh's definition, it's sexual harassment to call someone ugly, I can't say that the accusation really carries much weight.
It would certainly be absurd, if true. I don't have any insider evidence on whether it is. Do you?

Outplayz
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@bsh1
You are insulting my definition of hate speech. Which includes insults that offend. Why do i have to use your definition? Plus, i'm talking about an outside source and not what this website defines these things as... in the real world, where people want moderators like this site, with legal consequences to offensive speech... this is a perfect case in point not to allow our society to be tainted with this ridiculousness of giving anyone the authority to decide what is offensive and what isn't. This is a private site... and, sure, you haven't warned anyone off your definition and/or this sites definition... i believe you. But that's not what i'm talking about.
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@RationalMadman
I don't see how it's humbling to have your friends tell you you're laughing at them and making them feel hurt. I can see how it's good for you to realise you to it though.
🙂


Outplayz
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@Castin
Hey that hurts my feelings. 
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@Outplayz
My smiley face had no relationship with the specific people/arguments in this thread. Also you know you can't stay mad at me, my fucking wardrobe leads to Narnia. No I don't need to explain wtf that means or where it came from, I've been to fucking Narnia. It made total sense for reasons knowable only to me.
bsh1
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@Castin
lol
Outplayz
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@Castin
Also you know you can't stay mad at me, my fucking wardrobe leads to Narnia. 
Lol... you should know by now i'm way down with fictional realism ;) 

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@ResurgetExFavilla
Only a narcissist sees anyone who bullies them as a sociopath, because they assume that no sane person could find grievous fault with them.
Ah, codswallop. I would never "assume no sane person could find grievous fault with me", but if I became bullied by a domineering and manipulative pathological liar with no apparent empathy, I would say that person has sociopathic tendencies, and I'd likely be right to say it. I'd also seek a second opinion from someone I considered to have good judgment, as a check on my bias. Then I would commence Operation Eat Me And Fuck Off. For the record, I don't think Goldtop was a sociopath.

In reality, most bullies are just normal people who have a very different idea of what is appropriate, and attempt to rectify what they see as errors in your behavior. The amount of 'bullies' that someone has is usually commensurate to the amount of character flaws that they put on display, and their hysterical refusal to correct any of them just attracts more bullies, like moths to a flame. Far from being 'sociopathic', bullying in any social economy is a way of fixing bad behaviour. It's only seen as bad in itself by people who are immature, or just lack the ability to accept criticism. Of course, you can argue that a specific bully is off the mark, but the act itself is very healthy.
It's true they're usually normal people. No one is pure evil. But I think it's a bit naive to think bullies are just trying to correct or improve their victims. We shouldn't assume it's tough love. Most of them are doing it for personal pleasure, and their motives are destructive. However, if you said ill-meaning bullies can still be useful in helping one build a thicker skin -- serving as unwitting training dummies, if you will -- I could get behind that.

Castin
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@Outplayz
Harassment should mean someone that goes around and literally harasses you without any substance to their responses.

And last point, when they said they told him not to talk to people on this forum... i just don't get that. What are people like him suppose to do? People that are generally skeptics and harsher in their rebuke... what are they suppose to do when the mods tell them they can't talk to anyone? You can't talk to A, b, c, d, e, f, user... you can only talk to Outplayz bc everyone else doesn't like you... i mean common, really? As long as the conversation is minimally substantive and it isn't just random rude remarks... we are all on a public forum and are choosing to put ideas, sometimes radical, on these forums... You're going to be criticized. I just see very little empathy for the side that is being reported on. It seems like mob rule to me right now. The crybabies all getting their way... that just makes zero sense to me. Life is hard, there are mean people in this world... stop hiding and step up and justify yourself and be confident in your ideas ...if it gets no where... instead of being offended, know it's the other person problem. Or, rework and grow yourself. You learn very little from agreeable people.    
I have not found that last sentence to be true. But I have found that powerful things are forged in fire, and that conflict is defining.

Fwiw, I was gonna reply to many other points in your response to me, but they would probably all have fallen under debate about Goldtop, and if you get treated like a Goldtop apologist one more time it seems like you may start shooting people.
Outplayz
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@Castin
I have not found that last sentence to be true. But I have found that powerful things are forged in fire, and that conflict is defining. 

Fwiw, I was gonna reply to many other points in your response to me, but they would probably all have fallen under debate about Goldtop, and if you get treated like a Goldtop apologist one more time it seems like you may start shooting people. 
Yeah... my whole intention here was to bring attention to the definitions of the things he got in trouble for... not so much defend him. But bc i knew Gold and how he acts... i was a little surprised to be honest about the sexual harassment part of it which made me skeptical of the other reasons. But like i've mentioned, i agree with the moderation, however, i think the moderation should take a second look at the implications of things such as harassment when told not to talk to someone. That is just unavoidable and kinda not fair when the person is here to specifically reply to said users bc he/she disagrees with those user... it's a little like entrapment. I think as long as it's minimally substantive ... it shouldn't qualify as harassment.  

In regards to that last sentence... i wanted to edit that too once i read it back. I just thought you'd say something so i can correct myself in reply, and thankfully you caught it. You do learn a lot from agreeable people... but what you learn from people that are totally against your ideas is different. For instance debating people like Gold have taught me all new analogies to make my point clear, made me focus on defining what i mean more succinctly, etc. You just learn different things from people that disagree with you and these things are extras that strengthen your main points and how they get communicated. That is why i like having people that are polar opposites to someone that is more agreeable or even someone that's nice but not agreeable. Bc nice people don't push you the same way someone that is a little more mean-spirited would. 
ResurgetExFavilla
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@Castin
Ah, codswallop. I would never "assume no sane person could find grievous fault with me", but if I became bullied by a domineering and manipulative pathological liar with no apparent empathy, I would say that person has sociopathic tendencies, and I'd likely be right to say it. I'd also seek a second opinion from someone I considered to have good judgment, as a check on my bias. Then I would commence Operation Eat Me And Fuck Off. For the record, I don't think Goldtop was a sociopath.
That's not what I said though, I said that only a narcissist sees ANYONE who bullies them as a sociopath. The vast, vast majority of the time, 'bullying' is done because you're breaking some unspoken social rule (that usually has a good reason for existing), or because you're doing something that most people find annoying, which is why the bully is able to function without himself being bullied. Are there some people who are 'sociopathic' and 'psychopathic' who bully? Absolutely. But sociopathy and psychopathy are both rare mental disorders, and are much more easy to find in the diagnoses of armchair psychologists than in actual clinical research.

It's true they're usually normal people. No one is pure evil. But I think it's a bit naive to think bullies are just trying to correct or improve their victims. We shouldn't assume it's tough love. Most of them are doing it for personal pleasure, and their motives are destructive.
I think that our society sees attempts at correction as destructive, because we've adopted this kind of insane 'love me or leave me', 'I'm beautiful and deserve to loved as I am' mentality. The fact is that all people are shitty. We all have flaws, we all do shitty things. Attempts to bend some of our pieces into a better position aren't destructive because we are not defined by our flaws, weaknesses, and failing. It's true that pride can creep in there; that's always a big temptation from the bully's PoV, which is why a healthy social ecosystem has a bully food chain. This is the kind of environment that I grew up in, and I just cringe sometimes at what an insufferable little shit I would have turned out to be if my ego hadn't been hammered out a bit. Were the bullies saints? No. Neither were the people who bullied the bullies. We were all just humans who saw someone doing something obnoxious or shitty, said 'stop being a little shit', and maybe felt a bit of undeserved pride. That's better than going through life demanding that the whole world lick your asshole 24/7 and not even being aware of how awful you are being.

However, if you said ill-meaning bullies can still be useful in helping one build a thicker skin -- serving as unwitting training dummies, if you will -- I could get behind that.
I think that they're vital to the formation of a functional conscience and self-awareness. Sometimes you have to be forced out of yourself, made to ask yourself 'jeez, maybe I am acting like an ass hole and had that coming'. It's not really something that most people can do on their own, without being put into an uncomfortable situation.


ResurgetExFavilla
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@Castin

The definition that bsh used in an earlier post, broken down. I have no problem with the first two definitions, but the last one had nothing whatsoever to do with the common definition of sexual definition until some shrivelled HR catlady decided to write it in there.

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@ResurgetExFavilla
The vast, vast majority of the time, 'bullying' is done because you're breaking some unspoken social rule (that usually has a good reason for existing), or because you're doing something that most people find annoying, which is why the bully is able to function without himself being bullied.
[sarcasm]LOL, yes yes this explains it completely. Poking someone in the ribs who can't poke back harder and pretend to poke them again and again especially if they're far more tickling than you so that they can flinch again and again and again and if they dare to do what they can do better than you back you either get them laughed at or they leave marks on you and you run to the teachers. YES OMG THEY DESERVE IT.[/sarcasm]

You don't know what the fuck bullying is or the psychology behind one who does it, it's never ever deserved or earned. It's entirely the bully's/ies' fault each and every time otherwise it wouldn't be bullying.
Castin
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I do take pains to say "sociopathic tendencies" instead of "sociopath", a diagnosis I am not qualified to make. I think everyone possesses sociopathic tendencies to a degree. It's a reality of society.

As to the third component of bish's sexual harassment definition -- I would really need examples of what kind of speech would qualify.

I've heard the suicide rate of my generation has climbed significantly. Some researchers theorize that it's because kids are withdrawing into their online worlds with little face to face interaction, so that when they get to college, teasing or taunting is devastating to them. They have no defense. Exposure to hard knocks is definitely necessary to the development of a strong and resilient person.
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@Castin
Yeah, technology is really doing a number on everyone, but especially the next generation. It's crazy how mind-numbingly stupid society has become about accepting 'progress'. At no other time in history has a young kid seen hundreds or thousands of different naked adults by the time he turns sixteen, or interacted chiefly through an electronic interface, or been exposed to the kind of unique visual language format which the internet offers every single day. We are in completely uncharted territory, tinkering with factors of human development that affect EVERYTHING within out society, and we're doing it with complete reckless abandon. You'd think that more people would stop, have a little humility, and say 'wait a minute, these are some pretty drastic changes, maybe we stop at some point'. But that almost never happens, there's a mind-numbing 'this happens, so it's good. Because it's good, it's okay that it happens' chain of thought and the whole bizarre procession of novelties marches on. Not only do they not get the 'hard knocks' social development, they are alienated from nature, sexually neurotic, and socially withdrawn.
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@Outplayz
I have not found that last sentence to be true. But I have found that powerful things are forged in fire, and that conflict is defining. 

Fwiw, I was gonna reply to many other points in your response to me, but they would probably all have fallen under debate about Goldtop, and if you get treated like a Goldtop apologist one more time it seems like you may start shooting people. 
Yeah... my whole intention here was to bring attention to the definitions of the things he got in trouble for... not so much defend him. But bc i knew Gold and how he acts... i was a little surprised to be honest about the sexual harassment part of it which made me skeptical of the other reasons. But like i've mentioned, i agree with the moderation, however, i think the moderation should take a second look at the implications of things such as harassment when told not to talk to someone. That is just unavoidable and kinda not fair when the person is here to specifically reply to said users bc he/she disagrees with those user... it's a little like entrapment. I think as long as it's minimally substantive ... it shouldn't qualify as harassment.  

In regards to that last sentence... i wanted to edit that too once i read it back. I just thought you'd say something so i can correct myself in reply, and thankfully you caught it. You do learn a lot from agreeable people... but what you learn from people that are totally against your ideas is different. For instance debating people like Gold have taught me all new analogies to make my point clear, made me focus on defining what i mean more succinctly, etc. You just learn different things from people that disagree with you and these things are extras that strengthen your main points and how they get communicated. That is why i like having people that are polar opposites to someone that is more agreeable or even someone that's nice but not agreeable. Bc nice people don't push you the same way someone that is a little more mean-spirited would. 
What do you mean by the bolded sentence?

Outplayz
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@Castin
What do you mean by the bolded sentence?
I mean it doesn't make sense to tell people not to talk to other people then call it harassment if they do when we are on a site to debate other views. Of course, if it isn't substantive at all, it's harassment. But as long as the person is minimally being substantive in their replies, i think he/she should be able to reply to anyone on this site... even if the replies aren't what the other person wants to read. Minimally substantive would mean something like... why do you believe in this delusional idea. It may not be nice... but it's still a question. But if they keep following someone around calling them delusional... then, that's harassment. Imho anyways.   

Castin
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@Outplayz
I think it makes sense to tell a harasser to stop talking to his target, and to penalize the harasser if he then won't stop talking to the target. How obsessed is this guy that he can't just stay away from this one person? He can talk to literally anyone else. He came to the site to debate other views and the restraining order doesn't prohibit that.

I think you tend to assume others have your standards of what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, when really you have a much higher threshold for offense than the average poster. Even I just can't agree with the notion that harassment isn't harassment as long as the harasser tosses in the barest whisper of an argument to get the post to pass inspection.
Outplayz
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@Castin
What would said person do if everyone in the religion forum that dislikes him/her says they don't want to be talked to by the user in question? He/she can only talk to people that agree? And how is it harassment if i think your view is poisonous to the world and someone has to say something? Just let you say it unabated bc it makes you feel uncomfortable i targeted your view? 
EtrnlVw
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@Outplayz
The difference would be presenting arguments for the content of said post, rather than just shooting off ad-hom attacks. For instance, I could claim you are insane or delusional rather than argue the actual topics of discussion. Welcome to Goldtops world and you should know this quite well. You wouldn't recognize his harassment much unless you were the victim of it over and over. You see, I can follow someone around following most of the COC and yet still be a harasser...how? I believe you can figure that out for yourself, it is called targeting and anything can be said as long as it does not violate any COC....you are looking to much at the surface of things. Goldtop is obviously a member who lowers the level of discourse here in almost every thread and depending upon what stance you take you may believe he is legitimate in his attacks but they are still attacks. Just like what you see with Disgusted, why he has been allowed to continually insult and harass members here is beyond me but here he is, in almost every religious topic insulting people, how is that??
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@EtrnlVw
Just like what you see with Disgusted... here he is, in almost every religious topic insulting people...
I've been on this site a very short time, but I can verify this. The very first time I posted in the religion forum he immediately started hurling insults at me. 

I've got similar issues happening with two other users on this site right now. I've blocked both of them, but they follow me in all of my debates and either alternately demand that I "talk" to them about why I blocked them, or simply hurl insults at me for not responding to them. 
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@EtrnlVw
I'm not defending Gold anymore bc i accept his punishment. My concern is with how harassment is handled. Someone might think it's harassment just bc the person responds to them the most bc they don't like their view. When someone has the polar opposite view than you or might think your view is poisonous... the replies to you might not be nice (we can't expect everyone to be like secular or other kind opposition). However, if they are questioning and asking for your logic... i think it's fine. On top of that, i don't think a user should be able to go tell mods i don't want a specific user to talk to me. Bc then if everyone did that, than the user will have no one to talk to and why i think it's illogical to say you are harassing someone bc i told you not to talk to them. That just doesn't make sense. So i'm talking about a specific scenario and not by a user like Gold. His punishment mainly brought this issue to light and i've meant to focus more on that than him. And mind you... i'm not talking about someone that just undermines you, plays semantics, and changes your words to mess with you... as you know who i'm describing. That wouldn't even be minimally substantive. When i say minimally substantive i mean there are questions and inquiries... even if those are presented in a more mean-spirited way that will likely bring you not to like said user... but, they still try to dig into your belief and tell you why they don't agree. In this specific scenario, i don't think it's harassment if this user decides to focus on your views the most (which should in a way be a compliment), and i also don't think it's right for mods to tell them they can't talk to other people. As long as it's substantive.  
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@Raltar
There are destructive people in this forum even though they may never violate the COC (in which Disgusted has more than done) and which people may never really get what is going on, stalking may be done in secrecy unless someone is really watching. Such a case as with this topic where someone is willing to defend the actions of an abuser because he may have followed some rules, it would be like me letting some pervert stalk my daughter as long as no laws were broken. Goldtop is and always has been an abuser, whether he follows the rules or not, same with disgusted. Most people may not realize that both Goldtop and disgusted have an agenda for being in this forum.