The Political Consequences of Low Birthrates

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Total Fertility Rate (TFR) = number of children a woman gives birth to over her lifetime. Historically TFR's have hovered around 5-7 children per women. Almost everywhere in the world, as economic and technological development takes place, the TFR falls dramatically In some places it's higher, in some places significantly lower than that. The reasons for the variance are complicated and not well understood. This is called the "fertility transition." The United States went through its fertility transition early, and other than during the baby boom the TFR has hovered around 2 or below since the Great Depression: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033027/fertility-rate-us-1800-2020/ 

This fertility transition is now in an advanced stage almost all around the world. In fact, some analysts are predicting that this year will be the first time (ever?) that the world as a whole has reached below-replacement fertility. The causes of fertility rates are complicated, multivariate, and above all poorly understood. 

The future belongs to those who show up. So who IS having kids in America? Ethnically, Hispanic women have the most children, but their birthrates are crashing extremely rapidly as part of a greater phenomenon where the White and Hispanic populations are converging on several important factors. Black women have more children than White women and have for some time, which has allowed them to hold onto their historical 11-13% share of the population even as the non-hispanic white proportion of the country has dropped. But this fertility advantage is dwindling. Other than Asian women (who have rock bottom fertility rates of 1.1-1.3) all groups in the US are converging to around 1.7 children per women, or perhaps even lower than that. 

Politically the question is more interesting. For women born in the 1970s, self identified conservative women had around 0.25 children than self identified liberal women. This is a meaningful, but relatively small difference. However, this is a lagging indicator. For women in their 30's, the gap is a lot larger but it's possible that liberal women will in their 30s will have more later births than conservative women. But take a look at fertility rates by state (yes, I know this is from Twitter but this account is a pretty reliable source): https://twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1460983673491279883 

Top 10 states: Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red, Red. 

Bottom 10 states (and DC): Blue, Blue, Blue, Blue, Blue, Blue, Bluish-purple, purple, Blue, purple.

Not everyone having children in red states are white conservatives (in the south especially many are minorities) and not all children from conservative households stay that way so I don't think this portends a long term and inevitable conservative dominance. But I think it is still a socially/politically relevant fact that white liberals seem to be going the way of the dodo bird, genetically speaking. If this groups wants to continue to hold onto its share it must do so through conversion. 

What can't be denied is that clearly conservative areas are having more success at getting the youth to breed than liberal areas are. While this may provide conservatives a sense of smug satisfaction, this most likely has more to do with cost of living and urbanization rather than policy, as the "family values" party doesn't do all that much for families. But still, the numbers are what they are and liberals ignore this at their own peril. Anecdotally, I expect this trend to grow far stronger with the millennial's and gen-z. I am in my mid to late-20s right now, about the age that many of our parents had their firstborns, and the only people I know who have kids are conservative religious types. The people I know who are in a position to have kids in the next few years (stable relationship/married/engaged, economically secure, non-hedonistic) don't skew as conservative/religious but are far from leftist zealots. The most liberal people I knew from my youth are still status chasing in expensive big cities.

While it's true that kids from conservative families don't always stay that way I expect that 1) The people of my generation who have remained religious and conservative despite being run through the public school and social media ringer are far more likely to raise children who stay that way than their hapless boomer parents, and 2) Personality is extremely heritable, especially when the parents get an 18 year crack at the child's environment, so if conservatives are having far more children the countries culture and temperament will still change even if a large percentage of these children change ideologies. 

I also wonder what is going to happen when the number of childless adults rises. Given the already fragile mental state of people in my generation, I'm not bullish on their personal happiness thirty years from now when their parents are dead and their families aren't growing. It really makes me sad.

Wildcards: The US is peppered with small religious groups with ultra high fertility rates. Most famously the Amish, but also Hasidic Jews, Hutterites, conservative Mennonites, and to a lesser extent Latin Mass Catholics, fundamentalist Mormons, and Quiverfull Evangelicals. It's the same principle as compound interest--given enough time, something that starts out small can grow extremely large, which is why the Amish, who numbered about 5,000 a century ago, aren't really that small an ethnic group anymore, now boasting 360,000 adherents. There's basically zero conversion, that's purely internal growth. Continuing that growth rate would yield 26 million Amish people in 2121. The Amish as a whole have a TFR of 5-6, but certain conservative sects have even more kids, 7-10 per woman and so are growing even faster. Hasidic Jews are going to be around 35-40% of children in Brooklyn in the next decade, and will reach majority status very quickly if trends don't change. 

The past doesn't predict the future and the birthrates of these groups will eventually hit a wall....but when is anyone's guess, and what will happen afterward is unknown. Millions of ex-Amish and ex-Hasidic Jews filtering into mainstream society fifty to seventy five years from now is a political and social phenomenon no one is expecting but one that I believe is pretty much inevitable unless their TFR crashes to something resembling secular society very quickly.

Anyway I don't really have a point of this post. I was actually just jotting stuff down for my own purposes and thought maybe someone on this forum would find it interesting. I don't know what the future holds, but it's certainly interesting! If you're currently on the fence, you should have a kid.
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there are also countries (not the US) that I think are pretty much doomed due to their low birthrates. South Korea = population of 52 million, 272,000 births last year (and the current data suggests they are decreasing further.) Yes yes, technology, automation yada yada but numbers like that are just asking for a social system collapse in 30 years, or for a foreign country to easily overwhelm the 5% of your people who are fighting aged males in 2050
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Parents who have a child today will spend, on average, $284,570 by the time the baby turns 18, according to Department of Agriculture (USDA) data. 
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thanks, that's good information. Do you have a link? Last time I saw this data it was pointed out that this factors in marginal housing costs, so if you already have a house the number is a lot lower. It doesnt factor in college tuition though which is brutal if you want to provide that for your kids
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thanks! 29% of it goes to housing. also look at how the housing costs "per child" (doesnt necessarily work that way but I see what they are getting at) differ between rural and urban areas...3900 vs 2400. I would imagine that has gotten worse in recent years and that other costs have that difference too. could explain a lot
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My grandfather: secular, urban, four children, four grandchildren, zero great grandchildren (hoping to change that soon) 

My wife’s grandfather: religious, rural, ten children, 40+ grandchildren/great grandchildren 

Both men born the exact same year, almost a century ago. Stuff like this fascinates me 
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Somewhat interesting, seeing another's thoughts.
I've no interest in having a family myself,
Though I think it'd be economically 'useful, both for myself and my country.
Least for people in the right situations, live well, and raise their family well.
Family can be an economic, moral, safety, emotional, support.

My opinions,
If one identifies a country as it's people/genetics/culture, and immigration is high, then low birth rate is bad for a country.
If one identifies a country as it's people/genetics/culture, and immigration is low, then a low birth rates consequences can be managed.
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@Lemming
Somewhat interesting, seeing another's thoughts.
I've no interest in having a family myself,
Without being too probing, why not? And without trying to depress you, what do you expect the latter half of your life to be like? 

My opinions,
If one identifies a country as it's people/genetics/culture, and immigration is high, then low birth rate is bad for a country.
If one identifies a country as it's people/genetics/culture, and immigration is low, then a low birth rates consequences can be managed.
Yeah agreed. Although even if someone defines a country as an economy or a polity or whatever I see immigration pressure lowering significantly over the next few decades because birth rates are falling everywhere. There just isn’t this massive reserve of impoverished young people anymore as people think. For example when the big Mexican migration to America happened starting in the 50s/60s, Mexico had a TFR of 6.5, now it’s down to 2.1 and about to hit below replacement 
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Introversion over the years, perhaps of character, certainly of behavior,
That culminates into a great preference 'for autonomy and limited relationships.

I say limited, for clear enough I spend time online, conversing with people often enough.

It's possible if I met someone, I'd end up in a relationship, but it's not something I have a great desire for,
Thus I make no attempts at it,
Even were a meeting to occur, I'm doubtful of my 'preference for it, but unknown theoreticals.

I don't 'think I'd call myself an Antinatalist.
Though my mind 'does think on that subject now and then, it's more a 'mood for me, than a stand.

Lastly, selfishness I suppose, I don't much want to give myself to another, be it a spouse, or my offspring's genetics.

. . .

I agree with what you say of countries systems,
Though I think culture is a 'significant bonus to the function of a country.
Genetics themselves are not culture, usually, and people can assimilate.

But I think myself, that genetics can 'tinge culture, as well as the fact that groups tend to 'keep their cultures.
Can take a 'lot of ink, to be stronger than blood.
(Ink being laws, history, so on.)

(Edit)
Ah forgot, later half of my life,
Well, 'ideally, save enough money to retire,
Continue pursuing that which I enjoy or interests me.
Continue limited relationships with others.
Die of old age, regretful that I was not more reckless in ambition to power or life extending technology.
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@thett3
very insightful post
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@Dr.Franklin
Thank you
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If you're currently on the fence, you should have a kid.
Love that.

Did you get it from the  Karma Sutra?

Only joking.


I would assume that low birth-rates are relative to culture, rather than to a lack of potential.
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Yeah the “fertility transition” is caused mostly by access to birth control and knowledge of how to prevent conception. But after that is anyones guess. What causes a country like France to bottom out at around 1.8 while a country like South Korea bottoms out at 0.8? And no, it isn’t immigration. A mix of economics, urbanization and culture I would guess

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There just isn’t this massive reserve of impoverished young people anymore as people think. 
>The Middle East and Africa have entered the chat

More of a problem for Europe than us, but that could change quickly based on how easy transport from one country to another has become 

Good post, though! It’s very curious that we don’t know why birthrates have declined. Obviously contraception has played a major role, probably the entrance of women into the workplace as well. That mixed with the fact that a frightening amount of people my age say that they hate kids and never want them adds attitudes about parenthood to the mix.

Hungary has seen some increases to its birthrate and marriage rate since the passage of their generous social benefits for those that have kids. It doesn’t seem substantial enough, but I hope they can be an example for us
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There's probably a slew of latent biological signals developed over thousands of years that tell us when we don't need more people before it becomes an actual problem. Probably has to do with the fact that we can only have 10 close relationships due to biological limitations. Anything more than that and it's non-essential.
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I might be inclined to agree with you, but it seems that the people having so many kids abroad live in massive, crowded slums
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Might be a religious component to it as well.
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Might be a religious component to it as well.

Whatever keeps them from wrapping their willy
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>The Middle East and Africa have entered the chat

More of a problem for Europe than us, but that could change quickly based on how easy transport from one country to another has become 
Yeah I should’ve added a caveat that it’s still true in sub Saharan Africa, just not Latin America anymore. I think birth rates in SSA will decline and agricultural yields will rise though…but Europe is one famine away from having a gigantic migrant crisis on their hands 

Good post, though! It’s very curious that we don’t know why birthrates have declined. Obviously contraception has played a major role, probably the entrance of women into the workplace as well. That mixed with the fact that a frightening amount of people my age say that they hate kids and never want them adds attitudes about parenthood to the mix.
Yeah I think contraceptives also just changed the way that people view having children. There were always ways to prevent having kids but they were more primitive and prone to failure etc, now it’s just 100% a choice. In the past people who wanted lots of kids would have more than people who didn’t but the amount of people opting out now or just failing to get with someone in time is extremely large…I wonder what impact it will have on the gene pool long term 

Hungary has seen some increases to its birthrate and marriage rate since the passage of their generous social benefits for those that have kids. It doesn’t seem substantial enough, but I hope they can be an example for us
I would say the impact was substantial. They went from 1.2 (almost apocalyptic tier) to hovering around 1.5 which is far from ideal but a society can get by on that.

I think it has a lot to do with the type of lifestyle you can afford, relative to expectations. For people in places like California or Massachusetts who grew up in their parents 4 bed 2.5 bath house that they bought in 1985 who can now barely make rent on an apartment I imagine it’s really tough to want to have a kid in that circumstance. Since liberals tend to live in expensive metro/coastal areas I wonder if that alone explains the birth rate differences rather than any personal choices

I’ve also read, but can’t find proof right now, that the kinds of subsidies in many European countries make educated/high IQ people more likely to have kids. If true that’s obviously a good thing 

Merry Christmas btw. May yours be better than mine (I have covid!)
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It really is weird though how many people I know are clearly selecting themselves out of the gene pool. I know it’s pretty dehumanizing to think of yourself in Darwinistic terms but damn you’re the endpoint of literally billions of years of organisms reproducing, it must take a lot to overpower that inherent urge. I’ve always wanted children so don’t understand. I guess the real urge is to have sex and until recently that just resulted in children 
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Yeah I think contraceptives also just changed the way that people view having children. There were always ways to prevent having kids but they were more primitive and prone to failure etc, now it’s just 100% a choice. In the past people who wanted lots of kids would have more than people who didn’t but the amount of people opting out now or just failing to get with someone in time is extremely large…I wonder what impact it will have on the gene pool long term 

Yes, I do think that the introduction of mass-legalized abortion and the sexual revolution soon following the wide availability of birth control also did a lot to cognitively disassociate sex from having children.

As for the gene pool, I think the future looks rather grim. Lower-IQ people have less foresight/planning ability and have more kids, while those wealthier, higher-IQ people choose to have less on average. Considering that 40-60% of intelligence is inherited, we are going to go through a stage of serious dysgenics that will take many generations to recover from.

I would say the impact was substantial. They went from 1.2 (almost apocalyptic tier) to hovering around 1.5 which is far from ideal but a society can get by on that.

I think it has a lot to do with the type of lifestyle you can afford, relative to expectations. For people in places like California or Massachusetts who grew up in their parents 4 bed 2.5 bath house that they bought in 1985 who can now barely make rent on an apartment I imagine it’s really tough to want to have a kid in that circumstance. Since liberals tend to live in expensive metro/coastal areas I wonder if that alone explains the birth rate differences rather than any personal choices

I’ve also read, but can’t find proof right now, that the kinds of subsidies in many European countries make educated/high IQ people more likely to have kids. If true that’s obviously a good thing 
Yeah, I think the Hungarian model certainly shows promise. A 25% increase is nothing to scoff at. I'm just not certain that the generous financial incentives will be enough, considering that 2.1 fertility is needed to sustain a population (must be over 2 to replace parents and those that die annually)

Certainly more is necessary- a cultural shift. Maybe a return to religiosity in which parenthood is greatly encouraged would do the trick, but it would have to be a religion that forbids contraceptives like Catholicism and more traditional sects of other religions (hence why Orthodox Jews have a ton of kids as you noted- while not entirely banned, they are quite restrictive over contraceptives)

This modernist, atheist attitude of living life to the fullest while young and no life after death really has no room in it to waste your finite time and money on raising children.

Certainly it's probable that high living expenses prevent some liberals from having kids, but considering that even those at the higher percentiles of income in the US still don't tend to have as many kids as the poorer ones, I think that again is only one piece of the puzzle.

Here is a 2017 study that found that higher income was strongly correlated with having fewer children. In fact, it was a straight decline from the highest birth rates in the under $10k category to the lowest birthrates in the over $200k income category, with one exception ($10-15k was lower than surrounding) https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/

Not sure how representative this is, but as an anecdote, one of my professors had told us about how his daughter had once wanted to have 3 or 4 kids. His daughter and her husband I believe he said were both doctors (very able to afford kids), but now she doesn't want any because she is worried about climate change. It's insane how all of this fearmongering turned someone who would have been likely a great parent into one adamantly opposed to having children.

Merry Christmas btw. May yours be better than mine (I have covid!)
Merry Christmas to you as well! It's been a rather uneventful Christmas, but I can't complain. Get better, my friend! :)
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Sorry for the wordy response lol.

It really is weird though how many people I know are clearly selecting themselves out of the gene pool. I know it’s pretty dehumanizing to think of yourself in Darwinistic terms but damn you’re the endpoint of literally billions of years of organisms reproducing, it must take a lot to overpower that inherent urge. I’ve always wanted children so don’t understand. I guess the real urge is to have sex and until recently that just resulted in children 
I don't think it is dehumanizing to recognize that you have a biological purpose on the earth to reproduce. But in the end, we are the result of billions of years of reproduction and everything had to happen exactly the way it did for us to be here. I don't understand how people can think of everything that went into our existence and still choose to put an end to an entire genetic line.

In high school, I didn't think I wanted kids or to get married. Now I'm married and want to have kids lmao. However, I am not seeing that progression towards wanting to have kids (or even in some cases, to get married) among many of my peers. Even if it does happen, it'll likely be too late to have any.
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Yes, I do think that the introduction of mass-legalized abortion and the sexual revolution soon following the wide availability of birth control also did a lot to cognitively disassociate sex from having children.

As for the gene pool, I think the future looks rather grim. Lower-IQ people have less foresight/planning ability and have more kids, while those wealthier, higher-IQ people choose to have less on average. Considering that 40-60% of intelligence is inherited, we are going to go through a stage of serious dysgenics that will take many generations to recover from.
Yeah, on the other hand given this and how most kids have a nuclear bomb dropped on their brains from age 6 months when they are handed an iPad if your kids have a triple digit IQ and would fit in socially and physically in the 90s or earlier they're basically super heroes

Certainly more is necessary- a cultural shift. Maybe a return to religiosity in which parenthood is greatly encouraged would do the trick, but it would have to be a religion that forbids contraceptives like Catholicism and more traditional sects of other religions (hence why Orthodox Jews have a ton of kids as you noted- while not entirely banned, they are quite restrictive over contraceptives)
As an aside, Catholics in the US did have a much higher fertility rate than the WASPs prior to Vatican II. I have been trying to find the exact numbers (there actually ARE studies but they are all paywalled) but by the 1960s 35% of the babies born in the US were baptized as Catholics. The founding stock of the country was 1% Catholic! Pretty crazy, right? The "great replacement" already happened once, with the Ellis Island immigrants.

But yeah we will see if these religions will hold onto the children born into them...but man the secular, urban lifestyle really is a fertility shredder. I keep saying it because I don't think I can put into words how weird it is to me. Is there a historical precedent to so many people just voluntarily ending their lines?

This modernist, atheist attitude of living life to the fullest while young and no life after death really has no room in it to waste your finite time and money on raising children.

Certainly it's probable that high living expenses prevent some liberals from having kids, but considering that even those at the higher percentiles of income in the US still don't tend to have as many kids as the poorer ones, I think that again is only one piece of the puzzle.
Yeah, but what I don't get is what they expect their lives to be like when theyre in their 50s or whatever. Being a single adult I dont think would be that depressing if you are close with the rest of your family and they are having kids, but there are entire families where the none of the kids are reproducing, or  there are like four kids and one grandkid lol. Just seems so depressing to think about getting together with your aging siblings out of a sense of obligation to celebrate another Christmas that has long since lost its magic... Is it really worth it to "travel"? Or whatever it is people think they want 

Not sure how representative this is, but as an anecdote, one of my professors had told us about how his daughter had once wanted to have 3 or 4 kids. His daughter and her husband I believe he said were both doctors (very able to afford kids), but now she doesn't want any because she is worried about climate change. It's insane how all of this fearmongering turned someone who would have been likely a great parent into one adamantly opposed to having children.

Depressing. I have heard whispers of that sort of thing but it's always hard to tell whats reality or not. Yes don't have kids because you're concerned about the environment, I'm sure leaving the future to those who don't share that concern will help... 

However, I am not seeing that progression towards wanting to have kids (or even in some cases, to get married) among many of my peers. Even if it does happen, it'll likely be too late to have any.
Yeah this is what really weirds me out, man. I went to a college that notoriously attracts the last bastions of conservative, white, religious youth in Texas so I do know a lot of married people or parents from college. But none of my friends from HS are even married. actually I dont think any are even engaged. I have a friend from middle school who is engaged but I would be shocked if they have kids since they are hardcore secular urban libs

My older sisters social circle is mostly urban lib and they all have kids or are starting to though so maybe it really does happen rapidly once you see that big 30 approaching 
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Yeah, on the other hand given this and how most kids have a nuclear bomb dropped on their brains from age 6 months when they are handed an iPad if your kids have a triple digit IQ and would fit in socially and physically in the 90s or earlier they're basically super heroes
I'm a little confused by what you mean by this, but I think you're referring to the soon-to-be increased importance of environmental effects (how you raise your kids) on life outcomes. If so, I think that IQ as a relatively-important measure could be true, but overall genetic quality will reduce what people are capable of. Plumbers will be worse, worse accountants, worse electricians. An overall worse-off society.

As an aside, Catholics in the US did have a much higher fertility rate than the WASPs prior to Vatican II. I have been trying to find the exact numbers (there actually ARE studies but they are all paywalled) but by the 1960s 35% of the babies born in the US were baptized as Catholics. The founding stock of the country was 1% Catholic! Pretty crazy, right? The "great replacement" already happened once, with the Ellis Island immigrants.
That is really interesting. I have access to a lot of databases, so if you send me the studies, I can look through them for you. I know a tradcath friend of mine likes to rant about Vatican II, but I don't remember anything in it relating to parenthood/contraception/etc that should have reduced fertility.

But yeah we will see if these religions will hold onto the children born into them...but man the secular, urban lifestyle really is a fertility shredder. I keep saying it because I don't think I can put into words how weird it is to me. Is there a historical precedent to so many people just voluntarily ending their lines?

If there is, that's the reason their civilization died out. This seems like an entirely manufactured issue for people to all of a sudden choose to have no kids and say they hate kids. That is occurring even without considering the rapid change of living expenses. Single-income households with children living in a house used to be possible with a factory job, but now it is barely possible for one working parent with a college degree to live in an apartment with any kids. But even if it were possible to have kids financially, I'm still at a loss that people don't even have it as a goal. Their current goal is no children, retire early.

Yeah, but what I don't get is what they expect their lives to be like when theyre in their 50s or whatever. Being a single adult I dont think would be that depressing if you are close with the rest of your family and they are having kids, but there are entire families where the none of the kids are reproducing, or  there are like four kids and one grandkid lol. Just seems so depressing to think about getting together with your aging siblings out of a sense of obligation to celebrate another Christmas that has long since lost its magic... Is it really worth it to "travel"? Or whatever it is people think they want 

Yeah, that is something that I also don't understand. Maybe they don't have enough foresight. Maybe they think that 15 pet cats will fill that hole in their heart. I'm not quite sure what they expect their elderly years to be when they retire early from not having kids. A long 40 years for hobbies to take up. Hopefully we don't fall into a suicide epidemic, no safety net is as good as family.

Depressing. I have heard whispers of that sort of thing but it's always hard to tell whats reality or not. Yes don't have kids because you're concerned about the environment, I'm sure leaving the future to those who don't share that concern will help... 

My thoughts exactly. The biggest way to change the future is through your kids. You have a lot of influence on their beliefs depending on your relationship with them, so you'll be leaving the earth worse off by your own measure. There is so much you can do to lower carbon emissions like having a garden, biking as much as possible to go places, etc. Saying "I'll just not have a kid" while eating specialty foods that need to be shipped a thousand miles is just a lazy copout attempt to show you "care" while expending no effort.

Yeah this is what really weirds me out, man. I went to a college that notoriously attracts the last bastions of conservative, white, religious youth in Texas so I do know a lot of married people or parents from college. But none of my friends from HS are even married. actually I dont think any are even engaged. I have a friend from middle school who is engaged but I would be shocked if they have kids since they are hardcore secular urban libs

My older sisters social circle is mostly urban lib and they all have kids or are starting to though so maybe it really does happen rapidly once you see that big 30 approaching 
I did go to a Catholic high school, and I'm starting to see a handful of marriages. Almost all of them are the still strongly-Catholic kids that want a lot of kids from what I understand. The kids that left religion (excluding me for the time being :/ ) seem to be entirely or almost entirely unmarried. Even though these kids went to the same high school and the same 3 or 4 grade schools, they are ending up in much different places. They weren't the liberal-types of "Catholic" schools either, so it seems that both the school and the parents both need to promote religious lifestyles to even have a hope of them keeping it.

It would make sense, only one of my parents was technically religious but didn't take it seriously (didn't even go to Sunday Mass).
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I'm a little confused by what you mean by this, but I think you're referring to the soon-to-be increased importance of environmental effects (how you raise your kids) on life outcomes. If so, I think that IQ as a relatively-important measure could be true, but overall genetic quality will reduce what people are capable of. Plumbers will be worse, worse accountants, worse electricians. An overall worse-off society.
What I mean is that so many kids today are beyond f'd. Raised on a diet of totally processed foods, handed iPads to shut them up where they surf YouTube to their hearts content before they can talk, doughy and androgynous, now there are kids whose freak parents have destroyed multiple precious years of childhood due to the pandemic... accounting for all this, once you factor in avoiding pathologies that have always existed (such as low IQ) a clean cut, not socially retarded kid with actual hobbies/interests and skills who is reasonably intelligent and not physically repulsive clocks in pretty highly these days.

If there is, that's the reason their civilization died out. This seems like an entirely manufactured issue for people to all of a sudden choose to have no kids and say they hate kids. That is occurring even without considering the rapid change of living expenses. Single-income households with children living in a house used to be possible with a factory job, but now it is barely possible for one working parent with a college degree to live in an apartment with any kids. But even if it were possible to have kids financially, I'm still at a loss that people don't even have it as a goal. Their current goal is no children, retire early.
Yeah I agree about the housing prices thing...but at the same time for almost all of us our ancestors were ridiculously poor by our standards and they still had kids. I guess like we've been saying, it wasn't necessarily considered a choice back then, it just kind of happened. And yet even today there are poor people having kids--in fact they might have more kids. I think it has to do more with life experience and upbringing...as in, your RELATIVE level of wealth. If you come from a super poor community, holding down an apartment by yourself is actually a pretty impressive accomplishment and a step forward. If you grew up in your parents 4 bed 2.5 bath house thats now $750,000 an apartment seems like a huge downgrade. That's just my pet theory, though. 

There are places where that kind of lifestyle is still possible, the midwest and the south are littered with medium sized towns and cities where there are jobs that are full of houses whose prices still start with $1xx,xxx. It does seem like birthrates have fallen less in places like that, but unfortunately this sort of thing is hard to find because nobody pays attention to this stuff

I also think that sort of thing reflects a deep insecurity. When I've gotten people to open up, a lot just don't feel ready or worthy to raise a kid. 

My thoughts exactly. The biggest way to change the future is through your kids. You have a lot of influence on their beliefs depending on your relationship with them, so you'll be leaving the earth worse off by your own measure. There is so much you can do to lower carbon emissions like having a garden, biking as much as possible to go places, etc. Saying "I'll just not have a kid" while eating specialty foods that need to be shipped a thousand miles is just a lazy copout attempt to show you "care" while expending no effort.
Yeah. I'm not a determinist and believe that conscious beings/souls do have some exercise of control over their lives and choices, but soooo much of who and what you are is just inborn and comes from your genes. I posted earlier in the thread about my wifes grandfather who had ten kids...in a sense, he made another five of himself, and then another ten+ of himself again with all the grandkids. He's dead but in a way he has a much greater say in how things will be than some currently living people. You can't control what people do but through a combination of raising your kids and the genetics you pass on you can have a you-sized impact on events even after you've passed on.

I guess that sounds kinda arrogant lol. But doesn't make it any less true. I think libs make a huge mistake in ignoring this sort of thing

I did go to a Catholic high school, and I'm starting to see a handful of marriages. Almost all of them are the still strongly-Catholic kids that want a lot of kids from what I understand. The kids that left religion (excluding me for the time being :/ ) seem to be entirely or almost entirely unmarried. Even though these kids went to the same high school and the same 3 or 4 grade schools, they are ending up in much different places. They weren't the liberal-types of "Catholic" schools either, so it seems that both the school and the parents both need to promote religious lifestyles to even have a hope of them keeping it.

It would make sense, only one of my parents was technically religious but didn't take it seriously (didn't even go to Sunday Mass).
I've thought about Catholic School, but I'm also worried that it would be shoving religion down their throat too much and they might rebel, or be unpleasantly surprised at how much we have sheltered them from. I've been told that the fathers religiosity is the single most important factor, but I don't know. It's definitely important to me that they remain within the church

Religiosity has correlated with fertility for a long time but it certainly seems to be drastically increasing with our generation. I'm significantly older than you, though (I think like 4 years?) which at our age is a pretty significant age gap. Four years ago I was nowhere near where I am now. I wouldn't write off your peers just yet, but when they're pushing 30 or over that mark with no signs of settling down their genetics are probably going the way of the dodo.
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Yeah, I'll summarize the conclusion:

One theory is that fertility is expected to decline as religious and other ethnic groups would have similar fertility rates as they became part of the mainstream American culture. They believe that residence in the suburbs is one example of integration into the mainstream American lifestyle, and they reference a 1966 study by Zimmer and Goldsheider that shows that Catholic and Non-Catholic fertility has converged "much more" than it has in urban areas. 

There is a theory that minority groups should have lower fertility than the dominant group, but seeing as there was no pronatalist ideology discouraging contraception, they threw that one out. (That and it seems today that a lot of minority groups have higher fertility anyway)

A study in 1968 by Day did an international comparison of Protestant and Catholic fertility. It concluded that the pronatalist Catholic ideology increased fertility under two conditions: economic development was high and the group was sensitive to its own minority group ideology. Day said that without those two conditions, the pronatalist ideas were unlikely to have any effect He also suggested that Catholic doctrine and natality were "connected through ethno-centrism and the feeling of being threatened as a group".

Another simple hypothesis from Freedman, Whelpton, and Smit in 1961 during the Baby Boom gave the credit of higher fertility to the "continuing strength of American Catholic institutions and ideology.

Deviations of Catholics from official church teachings and views of conservative clergy are "evident in the closeness of the reproductive ideals of Catholics with non-Catholics" (Blake, 1966) " as well as the secularization of their contraceptive practices" (Westoff and Jones, 1977) " and in their low fertility per se".

It also says that there was a big moral ambiguity surrounding oral contraceptives "the pill" that likely led to the huge decrease in Catholic fertility around 1963-64. For several years, apparently they thought the Vatican would change its stance on the issue and would be rationalized as an ovulatory cycle regulator. However, by 1968 when they chose to reaffirm their teachings, about a third of its members were using the pill (Ryder and Westoff, 1971, p. 209).

They believe that Church authority was lost because "the door had been opened for Catholics and there was no going back".

Social forces encouraging low fertility in the US coupled with that loss of authority they believe is an adequate explanation of the lower Catholic fertility. The fertility converged in the 30s and 40s, but they say the Great Depression likely accounts for that. The good economic conditions of the 50s allowed higher fertility.

They conclude with saying that Catholic fertility rates have converged and diverged and can diverge again. However, they think it is unlikely because of Catholic rejection of church teaching on birth control, the increase of Catholics entering the middle class, and Catholics entering suburban areas.

Didn't have time to proofread, sry :P Hope it helps

So my short interpretation of this is that Catholics have integrated into US society which promotes low fertility. The Vatican waited too long to condemn the oral contraceptive, so now that is most ignored by non-traditional Catholics. For Catholics to become high fertility again, we must ensure that they have economic opportunity, but that they also have strong, separate institutions that are probably going to be in the bad graces of our secular government, which will give that boost of feeling threatened as a group- they will be more reliant on Church institutions. That and a renewed conservative resurgence in the Church.
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Thanks! Did they give any numbers about what the TFRs of Catholics or Protestants were? 

As an aside the church is right about the pill if you think promiscuity is bad, which I do. Decoupling the sex act from any (realistic) chance of pregnancy has certainly changed how people behave. And also I know it’s been with us for a long time but I’m still not convinced that just shutting down such an important function in a woman’s body for years on end has no side effect 
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I’ve been doing even more research into this, and we are really going to see some interesting (and probably depressing) stuff happening very soon. Like next 10-20 years. Look at a place like Italy which has had a below replacement TFR for almost fifty years now. Population 60 million. Number of women of childbearing age (15-35) a little over six million. Girls age 0-14 around 4.5. Do the math. Even if there is some sort of baby boom, which there likely won’t be, the population is going to completely collapse in a way we have never seen before. Certainly nothing we’ve seen without huge invasions, famines, or plagues These women aren’t gonna have 7+ kids each

Boys have the same numbers of course. So the number of fighting aged males is small and dropping like a rock. Now the wealth of a country like Italy MIGHT save it. But there are countries like Thailand who are well into this fertility transition and probably won’t get rich in time. Hard to imagine that we aren’t going to see entire countries and peoples swept into the dustbin of history in our lifetimes 

Am I just autistic or is this stuff extremely fascinating?