Obviously, the goal of vaccine mandates is to get everyone vaccinated. My question is, for what purpose? What is the end goal? I am speaking in the context of a national level. Let's say we get 100% vaccination rate in the U.S. How does that get us "back to normal" again?
Vaccine Mandate Purpose
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@Fruit_Inspector
- Less hospitalised or deeply fatigued workers = more active working force and less drain on any industry.Even if non-lethal, Covid often leads to weeks if not multiple months of fatigue and severe lung scarring.
- The virus surviving less in all citizens' bodies means no matter who spreads it to who it gets killed off ASAP. The only citizens who will remain unvaccinated (due to health reasons, their body can't adapt to or handle vaccines) in a mandate will be those whose immune systems also can't handle Covid (sure-fatalities) so it's also gonna extra-help them.
- The US doesn't have any sort of public healthcare scheme but if it did, it would be about draining that less, it does still have limited staff so it's better to not completely swamp them or they will neglect some sick for the 'more sick' and that kind of trade-off in a highly developed nation like US is very shocking.
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@Fruit_Inspector
What did you think of the smallpox vaccine? It was successfully used to eradicate smallpox from the human population. Routine vaccination of the American public against smallpox stopped in 1972 after the disease was eradicated in the United States. During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year.
@RM
You know I'm blocked, right?
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@FLRW
So is the purpose of vaccine mandates to eradicate SARS-CoV-2 from the human population?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Yes, Herd immunity also can be reached when enough people have been vaccinated against a disease and have developed protective antibodies against future infection. Unlike the natural infection method, vaccines create immunity without causing illness or resulting complications. Using the concept of herd immunity, vaccines have successfully controlled contagious diseases such as smallpox, polio, diphtheria, rubella and many others.
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@FLRW
Yes, Herd immunity also can be reached when enough people have been vaccinated against a disease and have developed protective antibodies against future infection.
When specifically will this be reached? When the U.S. is 100% vaccinated? Will we be free to go back to normal then?
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@Fruit_Inspector
You know I'm blocked, right?
quite rightly so
I forgot specifically which post led me to block you but I know myself well enough to know it was extremely likely to be a justified block.
I don't have much tolerance for right-wing bigots and it is not hypocritical to be pro-tolerance and anti-intolerance, being tolerant of the very intolerant is more hypocritical.
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@Fruit_Inspector
It won't now. It's not 100%, it's somewhere in the 90's. But a big enough population delayed getting vaccinated for reasons, which afforded the virus the opportunity to reproduce and mutate and become vaccine resistant. If there weren't an argument about wearing masks over who knows what in 2020, the virus would have had less opportunity to spread (REPRODUCE), then vaccines would have come out in 2021, the vaccine would have been the nail in the coffin for the virus by around June of 2021. Instead people made masks an issue, then made vaccines an issue, so they didn't take any action at all to mitigate against the virus, and those people allowed the virus to go on. Delta, Omicron, certainly more going forward to come and now, the virus will ONLY reproduce vaccine resistant strains.
Now, "Normal" is going to end up getting redefined.
@RM
You know I'm blocked, right?quite rightly so
Alright, just making sure.
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@ludofl3x
So let's say we achieve a 100% vaccine rate in the U.S. Let's also say that vaccines have the ~95% efficacy rate against current viruses.
What happens when the virus mutates in a country that is not fully vaccinated, then makes its way to the U.S.? Even though we have a 100% vaccination rate, this will likely be ineffective at stopping the new variant.
So if we are susceptible to variants from other countries, what is the end goal of a vaccine mandate in the U.S. to achieve 100% vaccinated rate?
What happens when the virus mutates in a country that is not fully vaccinated, then makes its way to the U.S.? Even though we have a 100% vaccination rate, this will likely be ineffective at stopping the new variant.
So if we are susceptible to variants from other countries, what is the end goal of a vaccine mandate in the U.S. to achieve 100% vaccinated rate?
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@Fruit_Inspector
So if we are susceptible to variants from other countries, what is the end goal of a vaccine mandate in the U.S. to achieve 100% vaccinated rate?
Is the hypothetical other country not at all vaccinated? That seems unlikely. You have to look at the virus as a fire, and susceptible people as logs. The less logs on the fire, the less intense it is, the faster it dies, and the more difficult it is to spread. I'm sure you don't need to have the idea that minimization of death, illness, economic interruption, etc., all the shit that made 2020 blow so hard, is better than doing nothing. The end goal is to protect as many citizens as possible from as much negative impact as possible. What are you getting at?
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@Fruit_Inspector
The end goal is mandated diets since obesity is the driving factor for Covid deaths over any other factor. It's also more dangerous to the health of people outside of Covid.
Better start hitting the gym before the government starts handing out belly passports.
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@ludofl3x
Is the hypothetical other country not at all vaccinated? That seems unlikely.
It's not hypothetical at all. If we assume Omicron originated in South Africa, that means the U.S. still would have been susceptible to it even if we had a 100% vaccination rate. I don't know what their vaccination rate is, but I'm guessing it's much higher than 0%.
You have to look at the virus as a fire, and susceptible people as logs. The less logs on the fire, the less intense it is, the faster it dies, and the more difficult it is to spread.
But isn't SARS-CoV-2 a highly infectious respiratory virus capable of infecting animals and mutating relatively quickly? How do you eradicate something like that with vaccines created for last year's virus?
I'm sure you don't need to have the idea that minimization of death, illness, economic interruption, etc., all the shit that made 2020 blow so hard, is better than doing nothing. The end goal is to protect as many citizens as possible from as much negative impact as possible. What are you getting at?
I'm trying to figure out what the current goalpost is besides the vague goal of ending the pandemic. If the goal is to eradicate the virus, it seems vaccines are showing to be a somewhat ineffective way to do so. Unless of course we are going to mandate new vaccines and boosters either every six months or with the discovery of a new variant.
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@Greyparrot
The end goal is mandated diets since obesity is the driving factor for Covid deaths over any other factor. It's also more dangerous to the health of people outside of Covid.Better start hitting the gym before the government starts handing out belly passports
Half the country would be unemployed with belly passports! But have you seen the push for eating bugs by people like the World Economic Forum?
Can you imagine if we had actually spent as much time, money, and effort on promoting healthy lifestyles for the last two years instead of ruining our economy with lockdowns and pushing vaccines? Not saying we should have, but think of how much better off we'd be. All we got was fat pride instead...
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@Fruit_Inspector
If the goal is to eradicate the virus, it seems vaccines are showing to be a somewhat ineffective way to do so.
They're most effective when a vast majority of the population gets them in short order. We didn't do so. It's extremely likely that Covid boosters will be required at least annually in order to minimize the effect. There isn't going to be an 'eradication' of this as there was with polio or small pox, it's too late for that.
But isn't SARS-CoV-2 a highly infectious respiratory virus capable of infecting animals and mutating relatively quickly?
It wasn't mutating relatively quickly. Look at the case trend between January 2021 and September 2021. It was on the way to being eradicated but THEN mutated into strains that were more vaccine resistant because not enough people got the vaccine AND those that didn't get the vaccine chose, in large part, to take no more preventative measures, basically freeloading off the people who did get vaccinated, and the virus used them to reproduce, and boom, Delta variant in September. Omicron in November. By February it's likely there will be another strain.
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@ludofl3x
It's extremely likely that Covid boosters will be required at least annually in order to minimize the effect.
Until when? And are they mandatory through vaccine passports or some other compulsory method?
It wasn't mutating relatively quickly. Look at the case trend between January 2021 and September 2021. It was on the way to being eradicated but THEN mutated into strains that were more vaccine resistant because not enough people got the vaccine AND those that didn't get the vaccine chose, in large part, to take no more preventative measures, basically freeloading off the people who did get vaccinated, and the virus used them to reproduce, and boom, Delta variant in September. Omicron in November. By February it's likely there will be another strain.
A large dip in cases based on voluntary PCR testing, most being likely done by symptomatic individuals in wealthy countries, does not mean the highly infectious respiratory virus was on its way to eradication.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Obviously, the goal of vaccine mandates is to get everyone vaccinated.
Nope. There are many circumstances in which vaccination is not recommended or appropriate.
My question is, for what purpose?
To reduce the risk and harm of disease.
What is the end goal?
The reduction of risk and harm.
I am speaking in the context of a national level. Let's say we get 100% vaccination rate in the U.S. How does that get us "back to normal" again?
"back to normal" probably needs to be be defined to give a good answer. There are many aspects of society that were permanently impacted. For example, the 20 year trends towards working from home and online purchasing were accelerated with no real expectation of a return to baseline.
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@Fruit_Inspector
A large dip in cases based on voluntary PCR testing, most being likely done by symptomatic individuals in wealthy countries, does not mean the highly infectious respiratory virus was on its way to eradication.
Ah, okay, so the vaccine doesn't work. I guess the point is mass subjugation of society through mystery 5g injection, right. We can all ignore that the dip coincides almost to the day that vaccines became available, plus three weeks. Carry on.
As far as till when, probably forever, and how, you probably will have to show proof of vaccination in schools, otherwise at some point, there will be people who get sick and die by their own choice and people who take the vaccines and don't. Again, natural selection at work, just much more grim than I'm comfortable with.
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@ludofl3x
We can all ignore that the dip..
You mean the dip in yearly deaths after Biden opened the borders? After 70-80% of high-risk urban areas were vaccinated? Sure.. oh wait...
Yeah let's ignore that "dip"
I feel so bellygood inside thinking the mandates were designed to save lives instead of a cheap blatant grab for power.
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@oromagi
Obviously, the goal of vaccine mandates is to get everyone vaccinated.Nope. There are many circumstances in which vaccination is not recommended or appropriate.
This is true, but I have also heard of instances where these circumstances are being ignored where vaccination is mandatory for employment. This is anecdotal though and I don't feel like looking up citations, so for the sake of this thread let's just clarify to say the goal of mandates is to get all eligible individuals vaccinated. This would cover the large majority of the population.
So if the purpose of vaccine mandates is only to reduce the risk and harm of disease, and vaccines lose efficacy over time and with each new variant, should boosters and new vaccines to deal with variants also be mandatory?
"back to normal" probably needs to be be defined to give a good answer. There are many aspects of society that were permanently impacted. For example, the 20 year trends towards working from home and online purchasing were accelerated with no real expectation of a return to baseline.
I agree with this. "Back to normal" just seems to be another vague goal to be reached. That's why I'm looking to see what people see as back to normal, and how vaccine mandates will help achieve that.
Many people seem to think that the virus will just go away as soon as the U.S. is fully vaccinated because that's what the government is saying. I think that's false, but I'm interested to hear the justification for this.
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@ludofl3x
Ah, okay, so the vaccine doesn't work. I guess the point is mass subjugation of society through mystery 5g injection, right. We can all ignore that the dip coincides almost to the day that vaccines became available, plus three weeks. Carry on.
I never said any of that. You said the case trend showed the virus was going to be eradicated. I'm saying that no matter the cause of that trend, that is a bad conclusion.
As far as till when, probably forever, and how, you probably will have to show proof of vaccination in schools, otherwise at some point, there will be people who get sick and die by their own choice and people who take the vaccines and don't.
Just schools? Or would that also include workplaces, grocery stores, etc.?
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@Fruit_Inspector
You have to show proof of vaccination in schools today, and you'll have to do it tomorrow.
Do you have to show a vaccine passport to go into a grocery store right now where you live? I don't. And I live in the tristate. I don't think vaccine passports are going to be required by governments, but by private businesses.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So is the purpose of vaccine mandates to eradicate SARS-CoV-2 from the human population?
I think SARS-CoV-2 is now officially endemic in human populations. Which means that experts no longer hold out any hope of eradication from the human population given present technology.
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@ludofl3x
Do you have to show a vaccine passport to go into a grocery store right now where you live? I don't. And I live in the tristate. I don't think vaccine passports are going to be required by governments, but by private businesses.
Other countries do. And the Biden administration has shown gone from rejecting the idea of vaccine passports to now attempting to force large businesses to require vaccines as a condition of employment. But you have made where you stand on the issue pretty clear, which is all I was asking.
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@oromagi
Yes, given what we know about COVID-19 so far, many scientits believe that the virus that causes COVID-19 will likely settle into endemic patterns of transmission. But our inability to eradicate the virus does not mean that all hope is lost.
Our post-pandemic future will heavily depend on how the virus evolves over the coming years. SARS-CoV-2 is a completely new human virus that is still adapting to its new host. Over time, we may see the virus become less pathogenic, similar to the four coronaviruses that cause the common cold, which represent little more than a seasonal nuisance.
Global vaccination programs will have the greatest impact on curbing new cases of the disease. However, the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine campaign so far has touched only a small percentage of people on the planet. In addition, breakthrough infections in vaccinated people still occur because no vaccine is 100% effective. This means that booster shots will likely be needed to maximize vaccine-induced protection against infection.
With global virus surveillance and the speed at which safe and effective vaccines have been developed, we are well poised to tackle the ever-evolving target that is SARS-CoV-2. Influenza is endemic and evolves quickly, but seasonal vaccination enables life to go on as normal. We can expect the same for SARS-CoV-2 – eventually.
Our post-pandemic future will heavily depend on how the virus evolves over the coming years. SARS-CoV-2 is a completely new human virus that is still adapting to its new host. Over time, we may see the virus become less pathogenic, similar to the four coronaviruses that cause the common cold, which represent little more than a seasonal nuisance.
Global vaccination programs will have the greatest impact on curbing new cases of the disease. However, the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine campaign so far has touched only a small percentage of people on the planet. In addition, breakthrough infections in vaccinated people still occur because no vaccine is 100% effective. This means that booster shots will likely be needed to maximize vaccine-induced protection against infection.
With global virus surveillance and the speed at which safe and effective vaccines have been developed, we are well poised to tackle the ever-evolving target that is SARS-CoV-2. Influenza is endemic and evolves quickly, but seasonal vaccination enables life to go on as normal. We can expect the same for SARS-CoV-2 – eventually.
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@oromagi
I think SARS-CoV-2 is now officially endemic in human populations. Which means that experts no longer hold out any hope of eradication from the human population given present technology.
I'm unsure of whether it is officially recognized as endemic, but I would agree that is where it should be classified.
So if there is currently no hope of eradicating the virus, wouldn't the logical conclusion of the current push be to mandate vaccines and boosters indefinitely? It would seem odd to make access to employment and other such important aspects of society contingent upon annual or biannual vaccinations for all eligible adults indefinitely.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So if the purpose of vaccine mandates is only to reduce the risk and harm of disease, and vaccines lose efficacy over time and with each new variant, should boosters and new vaccines to deal with variants also be mandatory?
I am fine with employer vaccine mandates, including govt. mandates for govt. employees. I don't think govts. should be requiring employers to mandate or enforce, generally. I don't really think of vaccines as more intrusive than say, govt. mandates for restaurant employees to wash their hands after pooping. I've never had a problem with those rules but the feds are not spending a lot of resources monitoring hand-washing. I am skeptical that there's much utility to fed enforcement that goes against local sentiment. If anything, Federal enforcement in the context of the current zeitgeist seems to result in more resistance, fewer vaccinated.
That's why I'm looking to see what people see as back to normal, and how vaccine mandates will help achieve that. Many people seem to think that the virus will just go away as soon as the U.S. is fully vaccinated because that's what the government is saying. I think that's false, but I'm interested to hear the justification for this.
I think its a mistake to advertise or hope for a return to normal- that there's some point in the past that's preferable to what we have now. That may be a core tenant of conservatism but its not something I've ever much bought into.
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@FLRW
-->@oromagiYes, given what we know about COVID-19 so far, many scientits believe that the virus that causes COVID-19 will likely settle into endemic patterns of transmission. But our inability to eradicate the virus does not mean that all hope is lost.Our post-pandemic future will heavily depend on how the virus evolves over the coming years. SARS-CoV-2 is a completely new human virus that is still adapting to its new host. Over time, we may see the virus become less pathogenic, similar to the four coronaviruses that cause the common cold, which represent little more than a seasonal nuisance.Global vaccination programs will have the greatest impact on curbing new cases of the disease. However, the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine campaign so far has touched only a small percentage of people on the planet. In addition, breakthrough infections in vaccinated people still occur because no vaccine is 100% effective. This means that booster shots will likely be needed to maximize vaccine-induced protection against infection.With global virus surveillance and the speed at which safe and effective vaccines have been developed, we are well poised to tackle the ever-evolving target that is SARS-CoV-2. Influenza is endemic and evolves quickly, but seasonal vaccination enables life to go on as normal. We can expect the same for SARS-CoV-2 – eventually.
agreed and well said. I did not mean to convey a sense of hopelessness by talking of COVID as endemic.
- The scientific response to COVID was astonishingly effective. We predicted, detected, and developed an effective medicine for this new disease with remarkably high confidence. This bodes well for humanity's capacity to survive future pandemics.
- The Renaissance is correctly seen as, in part, a reaction and result of the waves of Bubonic Plague that swept across Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. There's little doubt that present human populations are too high relative to the carrying capacity of our planet and so one reasonable, objective, long-term perspective on new diseases is that they offer a means of curtailing human populations without resort to evil methods.
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@Fruit_Inspector
So if there is currently no hope of eradicating the virus, wouldn't the logical conclusion of the current push be to mandate vaccines and boosters indefinitely? It would seem odd to make access to employment and other such important aspects of society contingent upon annual or biannual vaccinations for all eligible adults indefinitely.
We didn't feel that way about flu shots when they started becoming regularly promoted, when? 15-20 yrs ago. Before the pandemic, most hospital jobs mandated a flu vaccine uncontroversially, most schools mandated a series of vaccines uncontroversially. Before FOX and Trump decided to try to divide the nation about the issue, regular vaccinations had been a very normal part of American society for more than 50 years. Indeed, such programs were considered a hallmark of American scientific and rational achievement. What seems odd is the present popularity of the once fringe philosophies of anti-vaxxers in the face of overwhelming evidence of the safety and effectiveness of vaccinations.