Rittenhouse Trial

Author: thett3

Posts

Total: 189
#91
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
Monsters huh? What the fuck do you think a guy who murders two people by shooting them multiple times like it's a video game is and kept shooting others?

Was he a police officer? Was he the fire brigade? Was he military?

No, he's a 17 year old whose mother was so neglectful that she didn't know her own son had easy access to a weapon barely any American citizen should be wielding under any circumstance and it scared the shit out of the people he approached because, after all, it's exactly the kind of weapon a mass-shooter would bring there if they pre-planned to gun people down.

So, the people react. Not even overreact, they react. In response to being asked to disarm and hold his hands up, he holds onto the gun and tries to run away but if he runs away and they let him, he can then turn around too far away to easily combat with pistols and gun down masses.

Put yourself in the fucking shoes of the people who tried to disarm him. Don't for one second twist this into 'but hurrr durrrr you either want to smash property and support everything looters do or you back Kyle' because it isn't that simple at all. What is simple is seeing how it is absolutely straightforward to empathise with the dead guys.

And as for Ramshutu saying this guy is so traumatised.

Is this trauma? What happens when the mask slips?




You know who was smiling without shame or trying to mask it before they were slaughtered by a vigilante lunatic?

^ These images are used by right wing news 

You should be fucking ashamed what you are defending. Let's play this game then, justify the murders.

Tell me how the guys taking the stand have no emotion because they're so fucking sad and nervous that they give deadpan deliveries while kyle is smirking and working with no less than white supremacists to secure his victory. Scumbag.

I don't sympathise, I don't like him and I would be disgusted with myself if I pandered to you guys just to blend in with this forum crowd.
#92
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,907
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Tell me how the guys taking the stand have no emotion because they're so fucking sad and nervous that they give deadpan deliveries .

Like bicep boy? That guy showed zero emotion. Even while he was explaining to the prosecution why he was shot.
#93
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
What emotion should he show? Should he shed tears just for show? Not everyone processes sadness the same way.
#94
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,907
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Or guilt for that matter. I think his words were he "unintentionally pointed his gun at Kyle?"

At what point does a person become responsible for their actions, intentional or not?

Like, maybe BLM thugs shouldn't resist arrest and people shouldn't flippantly point guns at others.
#95
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I'd bet a huge proportion of my entire income and anything I own that in this situation, right-wing people would react far worse than those guys did.

I am extremely sure that if he'd approached a group of Trump supporters at a protest (such as during the January Riots) he'd have been brutally gunned down ASAP and made an example of. He's extremely lucky the guys didn't actually fire at him fast preemptively and gave him a chance to disarm. Fucktard.
#96
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,907
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
The only person gunned down January was a white girl by a black cop.
#97
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,907
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
He's extremely lucky the guys didn't actually fire at him fast preemptively and gave him a chance to disarm.

It wouldn't have escalated if the mob didn't exercise vigilante justice by waving a gun in his face. That mob shouldn't have been there in the first place.

People have a right to resist vigilante justice.
#98
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Because nobody is stupid enough to approach guys armed like this:

#99
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
People have a right to resist vigilante justice.
Exactly, that's why everyone who reacted to Kyle was correct.

Sick of this double standard.
#100
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
"It's okay to be armed and defend yourself against other armed people, even shooting to kill"

"oh sorry, not if you're a BLM protester"
#101
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
  • has an AR-15 underage and 100% unlicensed, is considered entitled to have it
  • have pistols overage whether licensed or not, are all considered scumbags to have and wield them
  • not just flexing the AR-15 but using it to slaughter people shooting way past the initial shot to confirm 2 kills - called an angel
  • barely using the pistols at all, asking him to calmly disarm himself, running and screaming when he fires - called the devils

#102
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
keep trying greyparrot, just say 'bicep boy' and feel clever
#103
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11


#104
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,907
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Because nobody is stupid enough to approach guys armed like this:

Actually, Bicep boy and his crew was that stupid.
#105
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,114
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Show me one piece of evidence that this was premeditated murder. Prove that Kyle intended to kill these people from the beginning.
#106
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,580
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

17-year-olds can vote in Congressional and/or Presidential primaries and caucuses in a large number of states, including Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming.  I'm guessing Kyle voted for Trump.
#107
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Because nobody is stupid enough to approach guys armed like this:

Actually, Bicep boy and his crew was that stupid.
No, no, it was he who approached and threatened them.
#108
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
you can keep avoiding replying to me but you can't say nonsense like this and expect me not to respond:

I don't think anyone on this site would have taken the case to trial. I may vehemently disagree with Castin, Ramshutu and Double_R on the morality of the situation but unlike the prosecution they aren't monsters who would try to put someone away for life over this. The prosecution is that monstrous. It is an open and shut case of self defense! 
I will repeat clearly what I said:

Monsters huh? What the fuck do you think a guy who murders two people by shooting them multiple times like it's a video game is and kept shooting others?

Was he a police officer? Was he the fire brigade? Was he military?

No, he's a 17 year old whose mother was so neglectful that she didn't know her own son had easy access to a weapon barely any American citizen should be wielding under any circumstance and it scared the shit out of the people he approached because, after all, it's exactly the kind of weapon a mass-shooter would bring there if they pre-planned to gun people down.

So, the people react. Not even overreact, they react. In response to being asked to disarm and hold his hands up, he holds onto the gun and tries to run away but if he runs away and they let him, he can then turn around too far away to easily combat with pistols and gun down masses.

Put yourself in the fucking shoes of the people who tried to disarm him. Don't for one second twist this into 'but hurrr durrrr you either want to smash property and support everything looters do or you back Kyle' because it isn't that simple at all. What is simple is seeing how it is absolutely straightforward to empathise with the dead guys.

And as for Ramshutu saying this guy is so traumatised.

Is this trauma? What happens when the mask slips?




You know who was smiling without shame or trying to mask it before they were slaughtered by a vigilante lunatic?

^ These images are used by right wing news 

You should be fucking ashamed what you are defending. Let's play this game then, justify the murders.
You can play your rhetoric and context-twisting games with others, it won't work with me. I see what you're doing and can reverse-engineer it.
Topic's author
#109
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,061
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I think part of what you’re missing is the uniquely American weirdness of open carry. In fact, nobody we have been able to see on any of the videos was terrified of the fact that Rittenhouse (among many, many others) had a gun. The first attacker, Rosenbaum, was earlier in a minor physical altercation with people open carrying. So Rosenbaum wasn’t so terrified by the presence of a gun that he felt compelled to attack in defense. There was some other reason. Whatever that reason was (and there has been no evidence that Rittenhouse provoked him in any meaningful way), Rittenhouse was clearly trying to retreat. 

When it comes to the second incident I don’t know if you’re really taking into consideration mob mentality. It’s pretty clear in the video—it starts out with yelling and following. Then the pace picks up slightly, someone throws a punch or hits him with an object from behind. Another hits him with skateboard. He trips and falls and the bloodlust kicks in. No less than five people descend on him. Two stop advancing as he recovers and shows clear control of his weapon. One jumps onto his face, making contact and Rittenhouse fires two shots that miss. Another hits him in the neck with his skateboard and tries to take the gun, and is killed. Finally the last attacker pretends to surrender, but sidesteps and points a gun at Rittenhouses head and is shot in the arm


Other than not being there in the first place I don’t really know what you’d expect him to do in that situation.  That mob would have beaten him to death. His behavior beforehand simply wasn’t the behavior of someone who just wanted to kill people. 
Topic's author
#110
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,061
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
Exact quote from the Prosecution: “everybody takes a beating sometimes” lmao 
#111
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
That's a very weird way to twist the entire video out of context, it doesn't show what happened before and I'm not verifying my age on google to see it (I don't like it tracking my real identity with videos like that, Google doesn't need my passport or other form of ID for me to experience the web).

I already know that the video fails to show the build-up.

I want you to ask yourself what someone who is 100% affiliated with white supremacists is doing at a Black Lives Matter rally armed with a gun capable of taking down 12 with him.

He says he was defending but who demanded or requested the assistance of a 17 year-old armed with a gun that is illegal for him to be wielding and frankly should be illegal all-out as it operates practically automatically while using it if one knows exactly when to let go and re-press the trigger between the bursts.

There is absolutely no way you are telling me that if someone who blatantly is anti-BLM and is verbally warning you to back off, armed with an AR-15 that you aren't going to feel threatened as a BLM supporter that you know that type despise and bearing in mind that type has been responsible for unleashing mass shootings quite a few times with such a weapon in the past few years.
#112
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
See my above post with 'want you to ask yourself' part.
#113
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@RationalMadman
Monsters huh? What the fuck do you think a guy who murders two people by shooting them multiple times like it's a video game is and kept shooting others?
Not important, but the guys he killed in self defence had over 60 combined criminal charges including domestic abuse and rape. The first "victim" was Rosenbaum who was charged by a grand jury with 11 counts of child molestation and inappropriate sexual activity with children, including anal rape. The victims were five boys ranging in age from nine to 11 years old. The other lad, Huber is a repeated abuser with the following being some of his charges: 

940.19(1) Battery Misd. A Dismissed on Prosecutor’s Motion
Modifier: 939.62(1)(a) Repeater
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
2 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.62(1)(a) Repeater
1 941.30(2) 2nd-Degree Recklessly Endangering Safety Felony G Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 939.63(1)(c) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
2 940.235(1) Strangulation and Suffocation Felony H Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
3 940.30 False Imprisonment Felony H Guilty Due to Guilty Plea
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(b) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
4 940.19(1) Battery Misd. A Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(a) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
5 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse
Modifier: 939.63(1)(a) Use of a Dangerous Weapon
6 947.01(1) Disorderly Conduct Misd. B Charge Dismissed but Read In
Modifier: 968.075(1)(a) Domestic Abuse

Not exactly good people who have a record of being reasonable or lawful, as the Kenosha shooting will also reveal. 

Was he a police officer? Was he the fire brigade? Was he military?
He was a kid who was attacked by a pedo and a wife beater - in fact the pedo later testified in court and confirmed that he stated"I'm going to cut your fucking heart out" called him a "ni***r" and taunted him by daring him to shoot him. 

Put yourself in the fucking shoes of the people who tried to disarm him.
Be honest here. If you were attacked by a pedo, wife beater and his accomplice and heard slurs such as "beat him up, get him, get that dude, get his ass" directed at you whilst a men charge you with skateboards, wooden planks and bottles, would you just subject? Remember, the people attacking Rittenhouse knew he had a gun - would a person with no malicious intents really charge an armed man whilst yelling "I'm going to cut your fucking heart out". 

What is your point? I can easily say 


^ Look at this look at his smile, he had a family!
#114
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Bones
Do you support the Elite assassinating Epstein to stop him exposing them? I think you only helped my point.

You say 'combined', how can the pedo testify if he is dead? I am genuinely confused.

Are you saying he came with targets in mind, tactically baited them and delivered vigilante justice? That's a line I could buy into and may fit his personality more, explaining that he's a hero-complex narcissist as opposed to just a simple sociopath.

Kyle is clearly high functioning and knew exactly how and when to unleash the weapon so as to justify doing what he did, he primed it for just the right moment to not get labelled a mass shooter or lunatic, had he done it a moment sooner we'd be seeing him differently.
#115
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@RationalMadman
Do you support the Elite assassinating Epstein to stop him exposing them? I think you only helped my point.
He killed himself.

You say 'combined', how can the pedo testify if he is dead?
Well he obviously went to court for his plethora of sexual abuse charges before he died. 

Are you saying he came with targets in mind, tactically baited them and delivered vigilante justice?
No I am trying to show that it is entirely plausible that the people who attacked him are not good people and that it should not come as a surprise that they would attack a kid on the street. It isn't like these are completely clean good people who came to protest. 

That's a line I could buy into and may fit his personality more, explaining that he's a hero-complex narcissist as opposed to just a simple sociopath.
Not a hero, but a kid you defended himself. You realise Kyle would be dead if he didn't do anything? 

Kyle is clearly high functioning and knew exactly how and when to unleash the weapon so as to justify doing what he did
If he was a shooter, why didn't he just unload in a crowd? It seems to much of a coincidence that he only unloads when he is literally seconds away from being beat to death. 

he primed it for just the right moment to not get labelled a mass shooter or lunatic, had he done it a moment sooner, we'd be seeing him differently.
We can both agree here, if he had unloaded sooner we would not be having this debate - he would be a killer. But the fact is that he only shot them when they were trampling over him waving whatever weapon they had. 
#116
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Bones
If you believed Epstein killed himself, you wouldn't have used the image to prove a point as it would be irrelevant.
#117
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Bones
You said he later testified in court but if he is dead how did he do that later? I genuinely don't understand what you're saying.

What happened was that Rosenbaum said 'kill me n*****' to a white guy during the events that unfolded, in response to this, Rittenhouse literally did kill him.

I don't think people realise that the first killing happened unprovoked and that provoked the others to chase.

This is a very good timeline of what went down with backstories:


Rosenbaum was a very mentally ill, troubled man who had been abused worse or as badly as you say he had done. If we can justify murdering him for that by a vigilante, it sets very dangerous precedent for what can be justified in other murder cases.

Huber literally tried to disarm Rittenhouse, I don't understand what people are saying in this thread.

Rittenhouse had already murdered Rosenbaum before Huber and 'the mob' chased Rittenhouse to grab his gun and keep him there until cops arrived.
#118
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Bones
Not a hero, but a kid you defended himself. You realise Kyle would be dead if he didn't do anything? 
He wouldn't. This is some bullshit propaganda line. He had already murdered Rosenbaum.

"Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he knew Joseph Rosenbaum was unarmed "

It was this murder that triggered the others to keep chasing him.
#119
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
Please see my replies to Bones, I don't think you are piecing together the events properly.
#120
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,239
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
That has nothing to do with the here and now. Your position on the police and fire departments totally abandoning their posts is "the community has no right to collective self defense, they can just wait it out until the next election"
No, that’s not my position because we’re not talking about what rights the community has, nor are we discussing whether the Kenosha police department were or were not properly handling their duties. We’re talking about Rittenhouse and whether his actions were right or wrong. The arguments I’ve made are what, in my opinion, should have been his point of view on the situation.

You are calling what Rittenhouse did (put out fires and render medical aid) immoral
No, I’m not, and again, there is no way you could have gotten that from my statements. I made clear what I objected to, putting out fires and rendering medical aid were not mentioned. You added them on your own.

I said it’s not up to an 18 year olds in neighboring states to bring their AR15’s to defend against potential riots. Do you agree with that statement? If not, who is responsible? How do we as a society handle such a threat?
I don't agree with that statement. If 18 year old LARPers are the only people with the courage to put themselves in harms way to put out fires and help people injured by rioters…
In other words, you don’t believe local authorities elected by the people in the community are the ones who should be deciding how to handle potential riots in the community.

I also said if one has no business in a neighboring state (and he didn’t, having family 30 minutes away does not make it your business) and it’s dangerous enough to need an AR15, and local authorities are on the scene, then he had no business going there. Do you agree with that statement? If not, what’s wrong with it?
I don't agree with that statement. He is an American citizen and has every right to walk the streets if he so chooses. The streets do not belong to violent rioters, they belong to the people…
None of this is relevant. Of course he has a legal right to walk the streets, that’s not what I’m asking.

Again, what was his business in Kenosha?

This is textbook victim blaming. Does a 19 year old girl with a fake ID belong in a bar? No? Well, she shouldn't have been there! Who cares if she is assaulted!
Complete strawman and false equivocation. Any 19 year old girl should reasonably expect that if they walk into a bar they won’t be sexually assaulted. No reasonable person would presume that walking into a city plagued by riots is a safe place to show up with your AR15 as the anti-rioter. That is provocative, and that invites the very situation he found himself in. This was all foreseeable, this was all predictable. It’s not self defense when you create the situation that leads to you having to use deadly force. If he really just wanted to put out fires and render medical aid he could have left his AR15 at home. And if all he wanted was to defend himself he could have brought a hand gun instead of running around like a wanna be Rambo.