Rittenhouse Trial

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Greyparrot
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@thett3
I honestly didn't know his dad lived there. I can safely tell all those people saying he shouldn't have been there to respectfully go fuck themselves and worry about their own families.

Blood is thick in families that still have a Dad.
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@thett3
one of the main reasons he went there was to protect property. he testified that he knew lethal force isnt allowed to protect property... so what he was intending was if he had to, to wait for an attack on himself and then shoot people. it was a "come at me bro" attitude that he clearly had. that's why it's exactly like messing with lions and then being forced to shoot one, and then wondering why people are mad at you for messing with lions to begin with. everyone knows the rioters aren't all that rational, they are just like lions, beasts. i do tend to be skeptical of his 'good citizen' acts like being a medic and such, as i think he was just telling himself he was being a super hero by doin all that. maybe i shouldn't second guess his motives on that point, but it's still clear by going to defend property and such, that he was lookin for trouble, and the 'messin with lions' analogy is completely accurate. 
thett3
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@n8nrgmi
one of the main reasons he went there was to protect property. he testified that he knew lethal force isnt allowed to protect property... so what he was intending was if he had to, to wait for an attack on himself and then shoot people. it was a "come at me bro" attitude that he clearly had. 
That does not follow at all. It is perfectly consistent to say you are there in the hopes that the presence of armed people acts as a deterrent (which it did) while acknowledging if the violent rioters did call your bluff and start vandalizing property anyway you wouldn't use lethal force to stop them.

But since we are talking about morality and not legality frankly I don't think using lethal force to defend property is immoral. I wouldn't do it personally but I have zero sympathy for a vandal or a looter getting shot in the act of wanton destruction

everyone knows the rioters aren't all that rational, they are just like lions, beasts.
And that's exactly my problem with it, including with what I myself said last year. Everyone is acting as if the presence of violent rioters and looters destroying a city is just a backdrop, something totally unworthy of a community response, and something that the people who live there or have ties there need to just lay down and accept. The rioters should not have been there either, and if Rittenhouse's mere presence there "provoked" them to the point that they would attempt to murder him...frankly, we would be better off if the whole community was like Rittenhouse and put their bodies on the line to stop this. I certainly don't have that courage 

i do tend to be skeptical of his 'good citizen' acts like being a medic and such, as i think he was just telling himself he was being a super hero by doin all that.
You can second guess the motivation all you want, but the fact is that those good citizen acts actually did occur. The fact that he truly did clean graffiti, put out fires, and render medical aid corroborates his story that he was there to clean graffiti, put out fires, and render medical aid. My belief is that he really was as naïve as he and his attorneys are portraying him to be, which isn't something I believed last year. Lots of midwit right wing kids are exactly like this, good natured and totally deluded about the reality of America
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@Castin
I thought that was probably it. It was a revelation to me as well, definitely changed things for me. I still think he should have left the illegally possessed AR-15 behind and just brought the fire extinguisher and the medkit. To that extent I agree with 2020 thett. Sorry, 2021 thett.
We can agree to disagree but fwiw the gun was actually in Wisconsin the entire time and never crossed state lines. Since a man who twice threatened to kill him if he got him alone attacked him once he had him alone I'm glad he brought his rifle along. The gun charge is apparently a little less cut and dry than it would seem on the surface but I also dont care about it at all because it's such small potatoes....
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@n8nrgmi
one of the main reasons he went there was to protect property. he testified that he knew lethal force isnt allowed to protect property... so what he was intending was if he had to, to wait for an attack on himself and then shoot people. 
Wait for something that seemed dangerous. The kid didn’t do anything wrong.
thett3
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But since we are talking about morality and not legality frankly I don't think using lethal force to defend property is immoral. I wouldn't do it personally but I have zero sympathy for a vandal or a looter getting shot in the act of wanton destruction
I guess I should clarify this, because I would end up feeling sympathetic to shot looters. I feel sympathy for the people Rittenhouse shot, despite everything. But what happened to them was a consequence of their own decisions to commit crimes and attempt to maim or murder another
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The prosecution has been looking weak, but that’s not surprising considering they indicted Rittenhouse in only 48 hours. Just a bit hasty…
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@cristo71
I think the real reason the Prosecution was angry that Rittenhouse took the 5th is because they didn't know the whole story until he talked on the stand. Totally irresponsible jurisprudence. Don't assume shit.
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@thett3
It seems gullible to me to think he was just trying to scare people from doin wrong. If a person is aggressive to go there with an ak in the first place then u would think hed try to stop them somehow and it's all downhill from there. 
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@Greyparrot
The increasingly agenda-driven nature of our once trusted institutions is becoming more apparent every year. It will lead to the opposite of what they intend…

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@n8nrgmi
Why would you consider putting out a dumpster fire and cleaning up graffiti "going downhill?"

Do you have any sense of community responsibility even when your own family lives in the community?

Any at all? Or do you just wait for shit to be delivered to you?
thett3
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I will say the prosecutor in this case is an absolute cockroach of a "man." It is beyond clear that he does not truly believe that Rittenhouse did not act in self defense--his own evidence clearly shows it, and his cross examination consisted of inane questions such as "why did you fire at the man who was stomping on your face?" "Why didn't you stop to administer first aid to the person who had hit your neck with a skateboard and tried to take your gun?" He flagrantly ignored pre-trial rulings by the judge to not introduce certain evidence, tried to intimidate a witness into modifying their official police statement, and implied before the jury that the defendants 5th amendment privileges imply guilt, leading to the judge literally screaming at him. He should be disbarred and criminally prosecuted.

I was already cynical but this case has permanently destroyed the little faith I still had that there is such a thing as justice in the United States. Thank God the entire incident was caught on camera from multiple angles. 
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@Greyparrot
Even if it's self defense y'all r basically just saying it's OK that he went there to shoot people.  Don't pretend that's not ur position cause its the only plausible position u could argue
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@n8nrgmi
Sorry if I came across harsh, but it irritates me to no end to hear people complain about people assaulting "mostly peaceful protestors" when they themselves have never experienced the shock and awe of having an ice bottle smash the side of your skull in while an angry mob of people chase you. 

The highest level of trauma experienced is getting a pizza delivered 15 minutes late.
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@n8nrgmi
Even if it's self defense y'all r basically just saying it's OK that he went there to shoot people.  Don't pretend that's not ur position cause its the only plausible position u could argue
Bullshit. He was running away and only shot after he was cornered against a few parks cars by someone trying to take his gun. How is that the behavior of someone who went there to shoot people? Again, you shouldn’t opine on the case if you haven’t watched any of the videos that show clearly what happened. 
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@thett3
So u think if he was guarding property and someone tried something that he wouldn't have done anything provocative enough to instigate an altercation? If he did anything significant it was a recipe for someone gettin shot.  I guess u acknowledge he's just a stupid kid so maybe u r right he's not complete culpable for his portion of death. But if he's not culpable for being an instigator he's at least culpable for poor judgement
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@n8nrgmi
You realize the reason he got attacked was for cleaning up graffiti and putting out fires, not for "protecting property"

In your world if you think that's justifiable, then I welcome you to experience it.
TheUnderdog
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Kyle Rittenhouse was looking for the trouble.

I support the death penalty for murderers, and this includes this thug!  Give him the firing squad.
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@thett3
Many people polled thought Kyle killed some black people...
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@n8nrgmi
Even if it's self defense y'all r basically just saying it's OK that he went there to shoot people. 

He didn’t go there to shoot people tho…

Don't pretend that's not ur position cause its the only plausible position u could argue
It’s his community burning down because of rioters. The rioters shouldn’t have been there in the first place either.
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@n8nrgmi
So u think if he was guarding property and someone tried something that he wouldn't have done anything provocative enough to instigate an altercation?
You mean show his gun and tell rioters to stop breaking shit? That’s provocative? What about rioters breaking stuff in the first place?

If he did anything significant it was a recipe for someone gettin shot.  I guess u acknowledge he's just a stupid kid so maybe u r right he's not complete culpable for his portion of death. But if he's not culpable for being an instigator he's at least culpable for poor judgement
It wasn’t poor judgement to shoot someone who was repeatedly beating you with a skateboard. It’s not poor judgement to go your community and clean up graffiti. It’s not poor judgement to help someone protect their property.
Ramshutu
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On a legal level, Rittenhouse was acting in self defence, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable conclusion - I don’t think it’s reasonable to argue against that from a legal stand point. 

However, I think if BLM protesters went to a Pro Trump protest, and in the process of being set upon by Trump supporters, ended up shooting one in self defence, then shooting a bunch more that appeared to be about to use deadly force in return after seeing them shoot the first - that would be legally self defence too. 

The real issue here is the difference between legal responsibility and ethical responsibility.

Going to a violent protest armed with an AR15, purposefully putting yourself in harms way; and then shooting a bunch of people when you feel you’re in harms way; you do indeed bear some of the ethical responsibility - if none of the legal responsibility. This is compounded a great deal by the open belligerence of many of the militia groups and right wing groups that appeared to almost relish the possibility of putting themselves in the potential position of legally shooting protesters; combined with a large number of Trump supporters who seemed to encourage just that.

3 people are dead because a teenager decides to show up to a riot with an AR15. Whilst a bunch of people made stupid choices - no one made choices that warranted their death.  The problem here, for me, is that Rittenhouse deserves some of the ethical responsibility - not all - for showing up at a riot with an AR15.

Media portraying the killings as murders or vigilantism is as inaccurate as portraying him as some beyond reproach saint. The reality is he shouldn’t have turned up at a riot armed with an AR15. It typified the apparent belligerence of the right, and militias - and it’s that aspect more than anything that I think drove much of the perceptions.

I have no idea why he was charged with murder: perhaps to try and dissuade militia turning up to riots and shooting people; perhaps to appease public opinion. It could be for a number of reasons.

Either way: I get the feeling that Rittenhouse isn’t a bad kid, and that what he’s gone through and is going through is more traumatic that whatever sentence the prosecutor could get.
Greyparrot
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perhaps to try and dissuade militia turning up to riots and shooting people;

How about letting the police do their jobs instead of defunding them like a cowardly Democrat?

Maybe people wouldn't feel the need to protect their families and the neighborhoods of their fathers if the police were allowed to put violent radical leftists in jail where they belong.
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What I think people are missing is this:

In recent years, there have been reports of individuals who were deemed "far right" being literally chased out of a town or city by an angry mob. Granted, maybe some of these people were in fact extremists, but their right to be in a public space while making political speech/expression should not have been contingent on their political ideology, no matter how personally distasteful to a majority or vocal minority of the population.

When these people were were "chased out of town", the media took a celebratory stance, gloating that they got their comeuppance at the hands of supposedly brave civic activists and relishing in their supposed cowardice for not standing their ground when vastly, vastly outnumbered.
This is a kind of extreme heckler's veto: shutting down people's natural rights in certain contexts through violence or implied threat of violence. And the left has not disavowed this practice so long as those being chased were on the right.

The left-leaning residents of Kenosha saw that Kyle Rittenhouse, whatever his origin or home address, disagreed with them. They fell back on an old familiar tactic but this once it backfired spectacularly.
I hope that an acquittal for homicide charges will serve to discipline and correct the American left by reminding them that denying the natural rights of disliked individuals through violence has consequences. Namely, if the police will not protect them, they might protect themselves by gunning down said mob. And under these limited circumstances (self-defense), them opening fire on other people demonstrably won't ruin their lives, meaning they'll be bold enough to disperse or deter an angry mob/assailant through force. Lethal force if necessary.

In other words, violence is a two-way street and poses no real advantage to any side, as anything you do to them today can be done to you tomorrow. To avoid it, you must respect that people you disagree with have and fully deserve the right to occupy the same public space as you.

Similarly, I hope that hardcore conservatives don't take any bad lessons from this. Rittenhouse is not to be emulated, for the simple reason that his circumstances must not be deliberately recreated.
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@thett3
For sure we have regard for self defence. But that isn't decided by a quick look at media footage, by a biased audience.

The whole point of law is to take the application of justice out of the hands of the lynch mob.

Fairness and consideration for all parties.....Including the deceased.

Well, one hopes that's so.
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@Ramshutu
This was my take as well last year, but after watching much of the trial it became clear that his Boy Scout acts (putting out fires, cleaning graffiti, and rendering medical aid) actually did occur. It also became clear that he retreated upon the first sign of confrontation multiple times. He didn’t behave in any way like someone spoiling for a fight. 

I don’t understand how Rittenhouse deserves ethical blame for bringing along a firearm to protect himself from a dangerous situation—and he was indeed attacked, by a five time child rapist and then a mob. What you, and others including myself at one point (to my regret) are saying is that the mere act of peacefully being there as an other means you carry ethical blame for what happens. The rioters own the streets, not the citizenry.  

However, I think if BLM protesters went to a Pro Trump protest, and in the process of being set upon by Trump supporters, ended up shooting one in self defence, then shooting a bunch more that appeared to be about to use deadly force in return after seeing them shoot the first - that would be legally self defence too.
Yeah if someone went to a pro-Trump riot where they were destroying a city and tried to clean shit up and got attacked by a mob I would give them a full throated defense…but there weren’t nationwide Pro-Trump riots last year in which dozens died and billions in damage occurred 
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@thett3
Adding to all you said, I have noticed no one criticizing Grosskreutz for bringing a firearm to the riot, nor for pursuing a person while brandishing and pointing that firearm at a person’s head.
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@cristo71
Right. He is the one who was trying to engage in vigilante justice
thett3
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Another beauty by the prosecutor was implying that the guy who pointed a pistol at Rittenhouse’s head after faking a surrender wasn’t a threat because Rittenhouse had a bigger gun. 

Unrelated but faking a surrender is one of the most dishonorable actions imaginable. It’s literally a war crime 
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@thett3
All the people threatening the Rittenhouse jury are vigilantes.