Delusion In Most Atheists?

Author: BrutalTruth

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@BrutalTruth
Do I take it you consider killing an enemy in war as not justified?   What about executing a convicted killer?   Would you say that people's moral judgement of such things is 'universal'?
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@keithprosser
Do I take it you consider killing an enemy in war as not justified?

You're asking me if you take it that way? I don't know. Do you?

What about executing a convicted killer?
What about it?

Would you say that people's moral judgement of such things is 'universal'? 
True morality is based on reality, thus it is not affected by us. It is what it is, regardless of us. That's why morality is universal.

If the war is necessary to protect the lives of those whom you rely on to survive, then yes, the war is morally just.

Executing a convicted killer is not morally just, because the killer has been apprehended and no longer has the power to kill someone. Therefore, the killer no longer poses an immediate threat, and as I said, killing is only justified if there is an immediate threat of death by that person. "An eye for an eye" is morally skewed, because it asserts that two wrongs make a right.
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@BrutalTruth
Morality is based on reality? It is universal?

You sound like a monotheist, though you still haven't realized yet that The Truth is literally The One God.



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@BrutalTruth
For a Christian, you seem like a rather intellectually honest individual. You may ask me whatever questions you like about what I believe and why. I may even agree to debate you on these forums, if you promise to admit defeat if you are defeated.

Are you ready to free form your arguments against God in this arena or are you still hiding behind a formal debate (where you are limited by rounds)? let me know I am willing to discuss/debate all aspects of Theism/spirituality. You could have just asked me why I haven't participated in formal debates rather than insulting me. Let me know when you are ready or get bored. If you want a clean free form debate/discussion that is what I want too I'm not interested in preparing garbage that cannot be demonstrated, you have yet to give me a chance, you seem content to believe that anyone who does not participate in a formal debate to be "you're either a coward, an imbecile, or are ignorant of what this site is intended for"....(you just insulted more than half the site members). 
When you come around and realize those little debates you participate in don't really address much but other peoples opinions through certain sources and links, perhaps you will come to realize free form here is much more dynamic depending upon who you converse with. We are not limited here by time or others opinions, perhaps you jumped the gun in labeling me an imbecile and as a matter of fact I could probably articulate Theism in ways you never though possible. 
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@BrutalTruth
They have a lot of similarities but some glaring differences too. I side toward full Preterism. I don't see how you can make sense of Scripture with partial Preterism, or with futurism in any form. 
Then yes, I do understand where you stand, and no I do not agree that it is the biblical stance, nor do I specifically disagree.
You understand where I stand. Good. That would be a good topic of debate then. Do you want me to set it up in the next couple of days? If so, would you care to say what you think is non-biblical about it (where it diverges from the biblical accounts)?

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@PGA2.0
I'm currently already in two time constricted debates, so I'm going to have to pass on that. I don't have time for another debate right now. Plus, I'm honestly not interested in specifically debating the biblical relevance of Preterism. I find that belief system to be irrelevant to the reason I debate against Christianity and theism.
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@EtrnlVw
I never insulted you. I made a logical deduction. If someone is an intelligent person, and one says they're an idiot, that is an insult. If one displays signs of idiocy, and/or proves that they're an idiot, and one, in turn, says they're an idiot, that is not an insult, rather it is a statement of fact. In any case, you don't strike me as the type of person who is interested in being correct, or finding the truth. You strike me as a person who already believes they're absolutely correct, and would never renounce their beliefs if proven incorrect. Now, I could be wrong. I'm not claiming to be able to divine knowledge based on an impression. However, until you give me reason to believe otherwise, I will remain uninterested in debate with you in an environment such as this.
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@BrutalTruth
Yes you did insult me because you never asked, you assumed and made judgements about my character. Your opinions strike me as someone being exactly what they are accusing others as. Until you release those opinions and do more than label me that's all you really have to go by. Why not just strike up an intelligent conversation and see who is the one that is stubborn. You strike me as the type of person you accuse others as being, one that believes they are absolutely correct. And as I've pointed out, you can see that in your OP. 
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@EtrnlVw
If one displays signs of idiocy, and/or proves that they're an idiot, and one, in turn, says they're an idiot, that is not an insult, rather it is a statement of fact.

Your opinions strike me as someone being exactly what they are accusing others as. Until you release those opinions and do more than label me that's all you really have to go by
Someone who claims statements of fact to be opinions is claiming to be intelligent, and you're surprised at why I'm not interested in what that person has to say? Comical.
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@BrutalTruth
I'm surprised you have nothing to say at all, TBH. So far, I have yet to know what that is besides insults, you haven't presented anything other than your opinions of Theists. Let me know though, you may be surprised such an unintelligent man can show you some things.
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@BrutalTruth
If one displays signs of idiocy, and/or proves that they're an idiot, and one, in turn, says they're an idiot, that is not an insult, rather it is a statement of fact.

And can you show those instead of claiming them? rather easy to claim someone is an idiot without showing why....

Someone who claims statements of fact to be opinions is claiming to be intelligent, and you're surprised at why I'm not interested in what that person has to say? Comical.

What statement of facts? Mister Formal Debate? 
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@BrutalTruth
Okay, then the question is why should my instincts operation in the same way yours do?

Because we're both human.
So was Hitler, so is Kim Jong-un. Do you think they operated on what was best or good for society or on what was good for them? It doesn't matter to them on the means they use to survive as long it is them. 


If it is to my benefit to kill others so I will survive what of it? If Hitler had gained world domination and has survived, then whoever he deemed unfit would be eliminated and there would be nothing wrong with it. This begs the question of how you get from what is (descriptive) to an ought (what should be).  From what I witness those in power make the rules. If you live in North Korea you live by a different set of rules from those in the USA. Why is your moral instinct any "better" than that of Kim Jong-un? Because you like it? Well, too bad, he likes the opposite and for you to survive in his country you have to abide by what he decrees. The problem is that you have two different set of rules regarding the same thing (let's say abortion or capital punishment). Who in effect is 'right?' They both can't logically be for they state opposites. It goes against the Law of Identity, the Law of Non-contradiction, and the Laws of Excluded Middles. In effect, it turns logic on its head.
Actions beget actions. That is factual reality. That's why killing for reasons other than an eminent threat is not morally just. If your life is immediately threatened, and killing is the only way to stop that threat from meeting reality, then killing is morally justified. If you kill indiscriminately, you invite others to do the same to you. Good begets good, evil begets evil, actions beget actions. These are basic logical principals, and basic human instincts for survival.
A factual reality does not get an ought from an is. It just is. 

I agree, killing for reasons other than self-dense or war is not morally just but I don't see how you get there.

Killing for an eminent thread was not the reason Hilter used for killing the Jews, and he managed to convince the German people he was morally justified in doing so.

But why would a random chance happenstance determine the same results for you as it does me? There is no reason because reason comes from mindful beings. There is no direction. Direction comes from intent and purpose. You can't have intent without mind. It is whatever survives that the direction is said to be determined - from a mindless, amoral fluke process. One of the many abnormalities from an evolutionary worldview is that there is a uniformity of nature and things are sustained indefinitely for no reason. It makes no sense why they would. 

Now, when you speak of good and evil, based on a moral reference point that has no reason to it - it just is - how does that determine what is best to compare goodness to? You may like not killing others or being killed (and I agree that good begets good and evil begets evil) but my Christian worldview has what is necessary to explain the why. I see your atheistic/agnostic worldview as not being able to for the reason that there is no purpose to it other than the purpose you and others build into it. So, it is relative, not objective. Thus it is relative and moral values do change. Just looking around at other societies verifies this is true.  



My moral instinct is no different from Kim Jong-un's. Kim is an evil prick who was raised in a morally skewed environment. His emotions were psychologically conditioned. His morality comes from these emotions, instead of reality. As I said previously, those who base their morality on conditioned emotions rather than reality are morally wrong. Kim has exactly the same instincts as I do. He simply ignores them when it comes to morality.


So what makes that wrong? Is he doing anything other than what his genetics and environment have determined him to do by fluke happenstance? Even if I agree with you on a lot of what you say, I don't see how your worldview justifies itself. I like what Francis Shaeffer said:

"Humanism means that the man is the measure of all things. Man is the measure of all things. If this other final reality of material or energy shaped by pure chance is the final reality, it gives no meaning to life. It gives no value system. It gives no basis for law, and therefore, in this case, man must be the measure of all things. So, Humanism properly defined, in contrast, let us say, to the humanities or humanitarianism, (which is something entirely different and which Christians should be in favor of) being the measure of all things, comes naturally, mathematically, inevitably, certainly. If indeed the final reality is silent about these values, then man must generate them from himself...
So, Humanism is the absolute certain result, if we choose this other final reality and say that is what it is. You must realize that when we speak of man being the measure of all things under the Humanist label, the first thing is that man has only knowledge from himself. That he, being finite, limited, very faulty in his observation of many things, yet nevertheless, has no possible source of knowledge except what man, beginning from himself, can find out from his own observation. Specifically, in this view, there is no place for any knowledge from God.
But it is not only that man must start from himself in the area of knowledge and learning, but any value system must come arbitrarily from man himself by arbitrary choice. More frightening still, in our country, at our own moment of history, is the fact that any basis of law then becomes arbitrary -- merely certain people making decisions as to what is for the good of society at the given moment..."









Ramshutu
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@BrutalTruth
The notion that No Gods exist would only be unreasonable if there was no evidence to support that position. If there was reasonable and rational evidence to preclude the existence of God (which there Is), then its reasonable to hold the view that no God exists to the extent that the evidence shows.
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@Ramshutu
What evidence is that? that precludes the existence of God? 
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@BrutalTruth
 
I'm currently already in two time constricted debates, so I'm going to have to pass on that. I don't have time for another debate right now. Plus, I'm honestly not interested in specifically debating the biblical relevance of Preterism. I find that belief system to be irrelevant to the reason I debate against Christianity and theism.
Okay, that is your choice. But if Preterism is true then you can't dismiss the biblical God as easily as you do. People say there is no evidence for the biblical God. Prophecy is one of many bucket loads full of reasons. What is more, it can be verified via history to a reasonable and logical extent. Thus, there is factual evidence for it. 

The funny thing is, I have not found one person in this forum to date that has a good knowledge of it. They dismiss God without testing the truth claim. 
When on DDO there was only one person that had a good fundamental understanding of Preterism. The rest spoke out of ignorance. 
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@EtrnlVw
The word "idiot" was used as an example of something that can be used as an insult, and can be a statement of fact. It was, in fact, never used to describe you(at least by me, I can't speak for others). The words used for you were: coward, imbecile. And at the time of stating them, I explained why I stated them. Currently, you are showing signs of a horrible memory.
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@BrutalTruth
Currently, you are showing signs of a horrible member and your accusations for why you claim I'm a coward or imbecile have no relevance or legitimacy. Try again? perhaps become involved in a religious discussion that this forum has prepared for you, or run away and keep creating ad-homs? 
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@PGA2.0
People say there is no evidence for the biblical God. Prophecy is one of many bucket loads full of reasons. What is more, it can be verified via history to a reasonable and logical extent. Thus, there is factual evidence for it. 

A man says "God told me this will happen in 100 years." 100 years later, said thing happens. This does not prove that the god this man claims told him this actually did tell him this, nor does it prove that this god even exists. It doesn't even prove that the man knew it was going to happen. The only thing it proves, in fact, is that the man happened to be right. Be it by pure happenstance, foreknowledge, or a god, neither have been proven. This is a perfect example of what I'm referring to when I say that Christians have no concept of what constitutes evidence and/or proof.
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@EtrnlVw
"Ad homs" are insults used with the intention of refuting an argument. My words to you held no such intention. Currently you are proving that you have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is. Do you wish to continue showing signs of being an imbecile, or would you like to cut your losses and be quiet?

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@BrutalTruth
A man says "God told me this will happen in 100 years." 100 years later, said thing happens. This does not prove that the god this man claims told him this actually did tell him this, nor does it prove that this god even exists. It doesn't even prove that the man knew it was going to happen. The only thing it proves, in fact, is that the man happened to be right. Be it by pure happenstance, foreknowledge, or a god, neither have been proven. This is a perfect example of what I'm referring to when I say that Christians have no concept of what constitutes evidence and/or proof.

Ahh, a thing you won't have to worry about when discussing religion and God with me, but you keep creating ad-homs, I can argue for Theism without the Bible. But you will never know as long as you keep insulting me and not engaging me with content. 
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@BrutalTruth
"Ad homs" are insults used with the intention of refuting an argument. My words to you held no such intention. Currently you are proving that you have no understanding of what a logical fallacy is. Do you wish to continue showing signs of being an imbecile, or would you like to cut your losses and be quiet?

Ad hominem-
is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[

I presented my argument and you responded with the above....I'll wait here while you create an argument or response of some type rather than ad homs. 


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@EtrnlVw
Ad hominem-
is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[

Exactly. Thank you for proving my point :). If you read my previous responses to you, you will see that my statements of fact(referred to by you as "insults") were not used with the intention of refuting an argument by attacking your character, motive, or other attribute of you. My words to you had nothing to do with any argument you had made, thus these "insults" do not meet the criteria of what constitutes argumentum ad hominem.
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@BrutalTruth
Post number 27 and 34. 
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@Everyone

It's been fun, but I have things to do. I'll be back later.
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@BrutalTruth
Better things to do besides run?
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@BrutalTruth

People say there is no evidence for the biblical God. Prophecy is one of many bucket loads full of reasons. What is more, it can be verified via history to a reasonable and logical extent. Thus, there is factual evidence for it. 

A man says "God told me this will happen in 100 years." 100 years later, said thing happens. This does not prove that the god this man claims told him this actually did tell him this, nor does it prove that this god even exists. It doesn't even prove that the man knew it was going to happen.
Your theory would be alright if it was one or two or even a few predictions, but hundreds? Who do you know who can predict the future with certainty? 

First, you would have to give good reasons that these authors wrote these manuscripts after the events in question. If you can't do that then you would have to show the predictions were inaccurate. Are your reasons good? 



The only thing it proves, in fact, is that the man happened to be right. Be it by pure happenstance, foreknowledge, or a god, neither have been proven. This is a perfect example of what I'm referring to when I say that Christians have no concept of what constitutes evidence and/or proof.

Prophecy is only one of many arguments that the Bible is what it claims. I could make the argument on other grounds but I like prophecy, mainly because people speak about it from ignorance and because prophecy refers to history. But who do you know or have ever known who could predict hundreds of specific things that happened exactly as predicted? Can you list any? Yet, this is the biblical claim. 

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@BrutalTruth
In your debate with Mopac you said,

"As I said in the description of this debate, the Christian god can only be defined by the Christian bible. The sources used for my opponent's semantic argumentation hold no authority to define this god, thus the premise for their argument is entirely false."
What makes you think that your authority and judgments are more authoritative than its words? After all, you are basing your highest authority on a mere mortal, limited, finite mind - yours or someone else. Why is it the necessary mind in determining truth? May I ask what your highest authority is on this matter? 

Do you believe that Josephus existed, based on his written accounts or not? How would you confirm the existence of an ancient historical person? Do you have to see them to believe them? And can you get to know someone from their biography or things based on what has been written about them? I see your argument as mute unless you want to deny the reasonableness of history.

The biblical God does not go about trying to prove His existence to His creatures. You either take Him as the highest authority or you place some authority above His. He interacts with humanity by singling out a specific people, and they write about Him. The difference between you and Him is that He is a Spirit alone. You are material and it can be argued spiritual. There is a part of you that does not seem to conform to the natural world if materialism is all there is. By the way, are you an empiricist or do you believe in the immaterial also? 

In the pages of Scripture, there is a message, a revelation about/from a personal being claiming to be God. If this message is true, then we can know God in as much as He has revealed Himself. If the message is from God, then you would expect it to confirm what we know about reality through its words. Prophecy is one such confirmation. Another is the unity of the Bible and its central theme. The NT says it reveals Jesus Christ throughout the OT Scriptures. I can show the reasonableness of this on most pages of the OT. The OT Mosaic Covenant was a covenant with Israel. In Exodus 24:3 they agreed to the conditions of the covenant. Deuteronomy 28 gives the blessings of the covenant and the curses for disobeying the covenant. Every physical ordinance and the ritual requirements were a shadow or type of a more perfect reality, a spiritual one. We are told they all point to Jesus Christ, and this can be demonstrated. 

The descriptions of God revealed in the pages of Scripture are also reasonable in describing what God would be like, the greatest necessary Being. The Creator would need to understand His creation and what He has made. He would have to transcend it, and therefore the physical reality, and that reality would have to have a beginning. If He is all knowing, just, and wise, then He would demonstrate this in the pages therein. These attributes are just a smattering of what is revealed about God. We also learn of His character, His holiness, purity, and power.

Then, I can go from there to determining how we make sense of anything, ultimately. Why should we in a chance happenstance universe? There is no reason. Why do we keep finding reason and why do we continue to make sense of a senseless universe? It makes no sense that we would. Why would we?

If I start to dismantle your worldview, to find out what makes it tick, what would I be left with that could make sense of anything? To make sense of origins, existence, morality, truth I claim God is necessary.      

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@EtrnlVw
Post number 27 and 34. 

What about them?
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@PGA2.0
Your theory would be alright if it was one or two or even a few predictions, but hundreds? Who do you know who can predict the future with certainty? 

Who said this man could predict the future? I certainly didn't. A man could give five hundred million accurate predictions, and simply be a man who staged five hundred million events to happen exactly when he said they would in the future. Only a fool believes that looks are never deceiving. If Preterists are really that gullible, then they have far more problems than the idea that they're delusional alone.

First, you would have to give good reasons that these authors wrote these manuscripts after the events in question. If you can't do that then you would have to show the predictions were inaccurate. Are your reasons good? 
Why would I need to do any of that, and why wold the predictions need to be inaccurate?
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@PGA2.0
What makes you think that your authority and judgments are more authoritative than its words? After all, you are basing your highest authority on a mere mortal, limited, finite mind - yours or someone else. Why is it the necessary mind in determining truth?

Because my mind is the only one I have, thus the only one relevant to me and what I believe.

May I ask what your highest authority is on this matter? 
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Authority on what matter? The Christian god?

Do you believe that Josephus existed, based on his written accounts or not?
I believe a book says he existed. Much like a book says Jesus existed, or the Christian god exists.

How would you confirm the existence of an ancient historical person?
You can't.

Do you have to see them to believe them?
Or smell them, taste them, touch them, or hear them. There are five empirical senses, not just one.

And can you get to know someone from their biography or things based on what has been written about them?
If said writings are verified to be true, then perhaps. It depends on how thorough said writings are.

I see your argument as mute unless you want to deny the reasonableness of history.
There is nothing reasonable or unreasonable about history. History is one thing, and the recording of it is another. The truth is often lost to time, as the scribe can write whatever they want. Who could ever verify the truth of the words written by men whom have been dead for 2000 years?

The biblical God does not go about trying to prove His existence to His creatures.
That much is painfully obvious, and quite ironic too, being that an omnipotent being could very easily prove such a thing.

You either take Him as the highest authority or you place some authority above His.
I place no authority on magical invisible pink unicorns.

He interacts with humanity by singling out a specific people, and they write about Him.
How do you know this?

The difference between you and Him is that He is a Spirit alone.
Actually, according to Scripture, he's not "A" spirit. He IS spirit(John 4:24). He is also love(1 John 4:16), light(1 John 1:5), and a consuming fire(Hebrews 12:29).

You are material and it can be argued spiritual. There is a part of you that does not seem to conform to the natural world if materialism is all there is.
Is there? I've never noticed it.

By the way, are you an empiricist or do you believe in the immaterial also? 
It doesn't matter what I believe. I am unable to know that which I cannot empirically perceive/experience unless it can be known a priori, therefore any belief I have of that which can only be known a posteriori which I have not empirically perceived/experienced is delusion.

In the pages of Scripture, there is a message, a revelation about/from a personal being claiming to be God. If this message is true, then we can know God in as much as He has revealed Himself. If the message is from God, then you would expect it to confirm what we know about reality through its words. Prophecy is one such confirmation.
As I've already explained, prophecy confirms nothing.

Another is the unity of the Bible and its central theme. The NT says it reveals Jesus Christ throughout the OT Scriptures. I can show the reasonableness of this on most pages of the OT. The OT Mosaic Covenant was a covenant with Israel. In Exodus 24:3 they agreed to the conditions of the covenant. Deuteronomy 28 gives the blessings of the covenant and the curses for disobeying the covenant. Every physical ordinance and the ritual requirements were a shadow or type of a more perfect reality, a spiritual one. We are told they all point to Jesus Christ, and this can be demonstrated. 
The fatal flaw in your belief here is that you are assuming that this bible of yours speaks factual truth. You are assuming every word is absolutely true, and that everything it says happened, happened. Because of the fact that you are not 2000 years old, and have no time machine capable of traveling 2000 years back in time, this belief is unjustified, thus it is a delusion. In other words: No, it cannot be demonstrated. Not really. Only in your mind.

The descriptions of God revealed in the pages of Scripture are also reasonable in describing what God would be like, the greatest necessary Being. The Creator would need to understand His creation and what He has made. He would have to transcend it, and therefore the physical reality, and that reality would have to have a beginning. If He is all knowing, just, and wise, then He would demonstrate this in the pages therein. These attributes are just a smattering of what is revealed about God. We also learn of His character, His holiness, purity, and power.
The Christian god is a murderous, misogynistic asshole who rapes, pillages, commits mass genocide, pitches his own children into a "lake of fire and brimstone" for sins as menial as lack of faith... If this god does exist, I certainly don't want to know him.

Then, I can go from there to determining how we make sense of anything, ultimately. Why should we in a chance happenstance universe? There is no reason. Why do we keep finding reason and why do we continue to make sense of a senseless universe? It makes no sense that we would. Why would we?
Lack of intelligent design does not equate to lack of sense. That makes no sense.

If I start to dismantle your worldview, to find out what makes it tick, what would I be left with that could make sense of anything? To make sense of origins, existence, morality, truth I claim God is necessary.   
Well, your claim is false.