Industrialization made the world wealthy not capitalism. In fact I posit to you that if food shelter and education were free we might have many more scientists, doctors and forward thinkers. Who knows what brilliant life changing ideas we have lost because a brilliant person had no choice but to toil in relative obscurity by their circumstances? The circumstance specifically of being unable to acquire higher education because of the pricetag and/or investment in time.
Industrialization made the world more wealthy than ever before
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that's why we have student loans. if the major and the person are marketable, they can afford to pay them back. if they aren't, then the person will struggle with non discharageable in bankruptcy loans. we should not allow colleges to charge so much, and we should limit grants or loans in ways that are marketable. of course, this all assumes the government should stay in the student loan business... as without it, there would be a lot of lost potential as you mentioned where people struggle just to make ends meet.
food is a negligible thing... a part time job or an extra loan can pay for that. the only people who would struggle with food are people with major issues, but they're not the ones becoming shining stars in science and such. and, that's why we have food stamps. of course, this assumes we keep food stamps for people around the edges.
shelter we just can't afford.the deficit is already out of control. in my opinioin people shouldn't have to pay more than half of their income in taxes, and while there's still room to close loop holes, i dont think even taxing that much would be enough income if all we focus on is the wealthy. after all, they say billionaires are worth 3.5 trillion in assets but the democrats want to increase spending by that same amount. how much sense does that make? i suppose section 8 should stay for the people on the fringes but that's not going to get rock star scientists into better positions. student loans are how we do that.
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@n8nrgmi
All the USA has to do is to introduce USAcoin. Bitcoin has no value yet it is worth $61,109 U. S. dollars.
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@n8nrgmi
So your idea is for more young Americans to be saddled with crippling life long debt?
As for housing perhaps if we abolish the land lord class and don't allow people to own homes they don't personally use.
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@FLRW
All the USA has to do is to introduce USAcoin. Bitcoin has no value yet it is worth $61,109 U. S. dollars.
Well that is how regular money already works. I'm not much for switching to letting weasels into the henhouse because foxes are such trouble. Printing money hasn't gotten us put of trouble so I highly doubt computing new money would make a difference.
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@secularmerlin
notice i also said regulate college costs and make loans/grants marketable. two years is enough for a degree. focus on STEM. that sorta stuff. make loans income based and not part of a person's credit report.
i would be open to limiting how many houses a person can own. but before we do that i'd rather allow millions more manufactured houses and trailers than zoning currently allows.
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@n8nrgmi
notice i also said regulate college costs and make loans/grants marketable. two years is enough for a degree. focus on STEM. that sorta stuff. make loans income based and not part of a person's credit report.
Would you be in favor of forgiving all current student loan debt?
i would be open to limiting how many houses a person can own. but before we do that i'd rather allow millions more manufactured houses and trailers than zoning currently allows.
Perhaps we should concentrate on filling the houses that are already vacant before we build even more.
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@secularmerlin
i think people should take at least some responsibility for what they've borrowed. maybe everyone pays ten percent of their income until it's paid off, or maybe half of it's paid off, or until they die, whichever comes first. it's not right to make the loans discharged in bankruptcy after the fact, and it's not right to saddle taxpayers with the whole bill, and it's not fair that some people lived the high life in college while others struggled yet those who lived it up get a free ride.
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@n8nrgmi
I didn't say pay people's student loan debt I said forgive it. Erase it. Make it go away
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@secularmerlin
like i said bankruptcy after the fact is problematic. for a simple yes or no, i would say no i dont support just discharging it. maybe partial discharge for some people.
it's not right to the private lenders who gave out loans with the expectation that the government would back them up like the government said it would. i suppose i wouldn't mind since lenders aren't guilt free themselves... maybe making people pay ten percent of their income for ten years, then if anything is left make them continue paying ten percent a year while half of what's left is discharged.
with all that said, discharging it would violate the contracts clause of the constitution. the government can't change contracts after they've been established. i wouldn't mind amending the constitution for a partial discharge situation, but getting an amendment like that to occur just aint gonna happen.
well maybe i'm wrong on the contract clause thing... i dont know how to analyze the contracts clause versus the bankruptcy power of the constitution.
Money is made up and banks don't produce anything.
who were the people who made the world industrious?
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@secularmerlin
above
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@secularmerlin
Money is made up and banks don't produce anything.
agree
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@Dr.Franklin
who were the people who made the world industrious?
Why the proletariat of course.
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@secularmerlin
Short explanations above, to a multi-faceted socio-material symbiosis.
Whereby "wealth" is the catalyst.
And material development and progress, is the universal objective.
And human beings are dispensable.
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@zedvictor4
And human beings are dispensable.
I don't think they should be. My personal database tells me humans are worthwhile. It is an opinion that I hold so strongly that for me it takes on the force of fact. I understand academically that this is only true if I make it true but I just cannot do other than to make it as true as I can for both myself and others.
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@secularmerlin
I too, strongly hold the opinion that humans are worthwhile.
But for the reasons given above.
Nonetheless, humans are still dispensable.
Otherwise we would live forever.
We have a very brief time frame in which to be effective.
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@zedvictor4
We have a very brief time frame in which to be effective.
A blessing and a curse
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@secularmerlin
Very true.
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@secularmerlin
As for housing perhaps if we abolish the land lord class and don't allow people to own homes they don't personally use.
What is the suggestion here? Use eminent domain to purchase all investment properties nationwide then sell to the renters?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What is the suggestion here? Use eminent domain to purchase all investment properties nationwide then sell to the renters?
I am suggesting we abolish the land lord class. That we outlaw eviction. That we discontinue ownership of residential property by corperations and also by private citizens that do not live on said property at peat part of the year.
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@secularmerlin
I am suggesting we abolish the land lord class...
I understand that. I am asking how you would go about that. For example you say you would make it illegal for me to own a rental property. That would obviously preclude me from buying a second one but does not answer what I would have to do with the one I already have.
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@secularmerlin
In fact I posit to you that if food shelter and education were free.
"The First Law of Thermodynamics", translated into plain English is "There is no such thing as a free lunch".
"Conservation of energy" is a basic law of physics that cannot be violated.
There is no such thing as free anything in the natural world of physical laws.
Industrialization made the world wealthy not capitalism.
In the real world, machines and tools that produce products often require a substantial investment of resources. Investments are capital.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand that. I am asking how you would go about that. For example you say you would make it illegal for me to own a rental property. That would obviously preclude me from buying a second one but does not answer what I would have to do with the one I already have.
Well if you own a property that you do not live in then you own a property you do not need. You would stop owning it because we agree no one should be homeless.
In fact I posit to you that if food shelter and education were free."The First Law of Thermodynamics", translated into plain English is "There is no such thing as a free lunch"."Conservation of energy" is a basic law of physics that cannot be violated.There is no such thing as free anything in the natural world of physical laws.
Free in the sense that we invest in humanity. We supply their basic needs and their education and as a result we have a highly educated citizenry which benefits everyone. Any such investment will be more than worth it in innovation.
Industrialization made the world wealthy not capitalism.In the real world, machines and tools that produce products often require a substantial investment of resources. Investments are capital.
Money is made up. If all you invest into a project is capital you haven't actually invested anything real at all. Machines and tools are made by and operated by workers exclusively. No investors are required. We don't need them feeding off of every transaction like vampires despite popular belief.
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@secularmerlin
Industrialization made the world wealthy not capitalism
Free market has led to ecology that is under attack from unfettered industrialization.
All systems of government have attempted to compete with the free market system, and they have not won out in this race.
The competition has led to other nations systems of operation to cut ecological safe guards.
This spiral to the top { winner } is leading a spiral to end-date-for-humanity 2232 { approx. }.
Mind access to intellect/concepts leads to technology ergo industrialization.
Mind access plus heart{ feelings/empathy } does not appear have been prioritized enough to prevent the end-date-for-humanity, later instead of sooner.
True, that, humanity survived the Mutually Assured Destruction years. That was a positive sign. It is now countered by a new set of truths being led by the false narrative as truth.
The individual seeks to live a longer life.
Humanity ignores processes that lead to longer life span for the species. Go figure. ego} * i * {ego appears to be running the human species.
Perhaps this is defect of an operstional systems of a genetically inherent, lop-sided, bi-lateral brain .
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@secularmerlin
You would stop owning it because we agree no one should be homeless.
I am not living in it but someone else is, a whole family of three in fact.
That isn't the point though. How would I stop owning it? You are being clear on your intended end result but very fuzzy on your method of implementation. Am I being legally required to sell it to the government? Legally required to sell it to the resident? Having it confiscated outright? Details are important and you are being evasive when I ask for them.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Well in a perfect world you simply agree to stop owning it. Ideally no one would have to force you to acknowledge the right to shelter of others.