17+ Korean series Squid Game is one of the best series I've seen in a while. SPOILERS MAY BE HERE

Author: RationalMadman

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There are scenes in later episodes where I literally shed tears. I am not ashamed about admitting that but I will tell you that for me to do that, a series needs to really be powerful. Another series I have shed tears during that's big and on Netflix is Lucifer (but you need to watch many episodes and some seasons in before really getting to where it began to get that deep).

Squid Game is epic, genuinely, I have almost never watched something that made me feel so many emotions at once.
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I don't want to spoil much but I will put a warning in the thread title just in case.
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@RationalMadman
I've noticed it has been the number one term searched on Wikipedia a few different times this past week.  There's lots of shows that are number one on Netflix that I don't bother with- might even avoid because they're number one, since my sensibilities tend to differ dramatically from the majority.  But lots of Wiki searches usually tells me that a show is hitting on some levels I might enjoy.
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Whatever floats your boat, Wiki Warrior, for me the biggest thing I enjoyed is that they don't over or under represent villains. You get to see the light and dark side of almost every significant character (except one guy, who I won't name and it's not the main character, there's a support character who I'd argue is morally benevolent  without any malice and no, I don't mean the cop though he may qualify too). I won't spoil anything further, just watch. You will be gripped.
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watched it.  I'd give it a solid 7/10.

I would characterize Squid Game as near-future Korean remake of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory with ultra-violence instead of candy.

16 days later

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watched first episode so far think its a little overrated.
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I appreciated it, for the most part. Not so happy with the ending, but I'll steer clear of spoilers. Part of the problem for me is that I have a very similar series that I was watching around the same time to compare it with (namely, Kaiji), and it just doesn't live up to that classic. It's got elements that I think are better than Kaiji, but on the whole, it's not as solid.
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If there is no season 2 then I'd agree the ending is iffy.
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What I enjoyed the most is that there wasn't a character in it that I think was totally unrealistic. They had stereotypes which aren't even normal to have (such as Il Yeong and the old man) these stereotypes really exist of course but they're often relegated to totally irrelevant background characters in most series, here they showed a lot of types who are normally background characters as at least prominent in one episode.

Gi-hun is a type of character who nearly never ever is the protagonist of a series, he is often some loser support character at best.
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I’d agree on the characters. I think they did some things with the finale that won’t be fixed by a S2, but for the most part, I enjoyed the narrative.
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I meant Ji Young, not Il Yeong, I'm new to Korean naming style.
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The 'pretty girl' rarely gets shown to have proper depth like she was.
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I liked Squid Game. It's one of the more solid series' on Netflix


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what's wrong with the finale?

Did you not find the twist good?
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Don’t want to spoil it for anyone reading, despite the title of the forum, but I think that the twist retroactively diminishes some previous events without adding anything substantial.
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Also, in general, I’m not a fan of the basic motivation behind setting all this all up. There’s likely more to it, but the reason given at the end is very superficial and doesn’t jive with the character of “the man behind the curtain”. As an explanation for why they’re doing this, it works much better when you have an unmitigated asshole at the helm, which Kaiji does.
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I mean, I can't continue this conversation if you have an ethical dilemma with spoilers. If you're okay with spoiling since I do warn it in the thread's title, I'd like to discuss it.

To me, it was actually too obvious but I'm extremely intelligent with these twist-heavy series. The only twist that caught me by complete surprise is that the cop's brother was who he was. I caught onto that his brother must clearly be important and potentially even running the place but I didn't expect him to be who he was.
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Alright, we can just open up with the spoilers. Anyone reading this, you’ve been warned.



My issue is two-fold. One, I don’t buy that the old man is that much of an asshole. He can say all he wants that people entered into this willingly (under pressure of massive financial debt and even death if they don’t join doesn’t quite meet that bar for me), but at minimum, the first game was not consented to with knowledge of what elimination actually meant. He knew what he was doing, yet his demeanor (perhaps a mask, though even when he was out of the games, he still behaved similarly) didn’t speak to someone enjoying those deaths. For someone who actively started this on the basis that it would liven things up to have these people die in front of him and his ultra rich buddies, we got no indication of what makes him so committed apart from him saying that he’s committed.

Two, it just introduces lots of little holes into the previous events. He either was willing to put himself in extreme physical danger that could have ended in his death (not sure how that would have affected these games, since he’s the mastermind behind them), or he gave himself easy outs (yes, I noticed the locks missing on his shackles for Tug-of-War) that would have made it obvious that he was playing by different rules if they ended up being necessary, which also disrupts the game a bit since everyone was supposed to be equal and his ruse would have been exposed. I think that the Marble Game, in particular, is harmed by this, probably the most emotionally affecting episode. He was never in any danger and had no cost to losing. Gi-hun was given the equivalent of an auto-win with no consequences, giving him an unfair advantage. If Gi-hun had turned around when the gun went off, it would have spoiled everything. The reveal itself doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, either. Gi-hun just learns that there are people out there willing to help, which… I mean, it was the police, it’s part of their job. It would have been much more affecting if he realized in the end that he was the one who could save the homeless person, which would have galvanized him to act for others as he does after that. Just seems like its narrative effect doesn’t make a whole lot of sense going forward and it actively confuses what came before. 
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@whiteflame
So, at this point I realise you have noticed some things but totally missed others. On the other hand, I agree with you on something that many missed; il-nam was a complete and utter hypocrite. I don't just mean him dying, take this 'equality' stance he holds (or at least the cop's brother holds), there's no way at all they thought that by not punishing fighting that someone with a body like Deuk-Su is on equal footing with someone like Sang-woo for starters (and Sang Woo was a brilliant fighter and tactician but just face it, Deuk-su wins that fight every time).

What I am getting at here is that the very fact alone that beating the crap out of people, even to death, was unpunished within the resting area meant that regardless of one's ability at games, one was permanently a slave to one sole skill; hand-to-hand combat. No amount of social skills would help either because a 'gang' has every reason to turn on each other since only one walks away with all the money. 

That is one main reason I don't despise Deuk-su at all, not even for how he betrayed Mi-nyeo (the chick he banged). At the point of betrayal, he had every reason not to jeopardise himself and his team and was nearly 100% certain her team was bound to lose given that the doctor had told him what the challenge would be and that the command for them to be teaming up made it more likely the doctor was correct about what lied ahead. He had to maintain a ruthless persona even if he actually had feelings for her (which I don't think he did but if he did, he'd have had to act extra ruthless anyway) and ultimately he got extremely unlucky with how things played out. He even correctly abused his strength in the glass game, I would absolutely do what Deuk-su did there, even if I was weaker than him. I don't even know why anyone bothered going, what you do is blackmail the rest to vote to end the games if you're an early number, if anyone tries to push you off, you grab onto them and kamikaze and say you'll do that beforehand. This would have led to the glass expert helping them a bit and may have led to a totally different outcome.

Regardless, I am saying I see what you mean about hypocrisy and double standards along many angles in the game but that didn't make me dislike the ending, that was something I noticed before that was revealed.

I also think you didn't pick up on many clues that Il-nam is actually the father of Gi-hun and obviously was a sociopath who didn't give a shit about his son but just knew who Gi-hun was and engineered encounters with Gi-hun (such as counting with his finger pointed just as Gi-hun passed by him though I think that was a genuine thing he was doing because he needed to know his brain could still count people accurately so he'd stop the night-fight just in time for four teams to be the amount left). When Gi-hun says he's lactose intolerant and asks for chocolate milk (both a ridiculous and yet reasonable request because chocolate milk still has lactose but yes, it has slightly less and the lactose itself fuses with the cocoa somewhat to make digestion a tiny bit easier, it's why lactose-intolerant people often react more severely to something like pizza than a chocolate)... Anyway, Gi-hun says that and then the old man asks him if he got beaten for that as a child, then Gi-hun says 'yes' and the old man says he did that to his own son.

Another clue to pick up on (there's clues that were so abstract you couldn't pick up on) is that when they run around the marbles arena it's based on the old man's house and Gi Hun specifically states that he himself remembers living somewhere like this (clearly before the divorce/split which led to his mother needing to move in with him). This may also explain why the old man spared Gi-hun in marbles at all but I doubt it. At that point Gi-hun had proven himself even as a non-son ally and the old man obviously had planned to be the 'sucker' that didn't get picked so he could easily leave without getting noticed, this was all ruined because Gi-hun decided to pair with him.

I am confused though, since had the doctor not been killed off prior to marbles, there'd have been an even number of competitors but perhaps the old man had planned to drag out the marbles game regardless and do it how he did so he'd be killed at the last second and be able to fake it. 

What you say though, about his motive not making sense, is partly because I think Korean statements that are philosophical don't directly translate into English (both an issue on subbed and dubbed). What he was really saying was his motive, if you follow the context of the last scene, wasn't to just thrill himself, it was also to prove to himself (not the other businessmen involved) that at the core, humans are corrupt and that no matter how many random variations of people enter such a contest, they all end up backstabbing and selfishly operating regardless of what social bonds they form or previous assistance. I think he explicitly knew his own son was entering the contest that round, which he didn't mention to Gi-hun as he didn't know how to justify why he'd ditched him and his mother even financially despite being that rich. I also think he'd had Gi-hun followed long before and engineered it so that Gi-hun in particular got invited after he'd had every chance to get out of his parasitic lifestyle himself. This may explain why, sure others may have had many chances too, Gi-hun was already in crippling debt for years but only got asked to come to the game years after it began. He'd have been a perfect candidate way, way before. If you observe Deuk-Su's, Ali's and Sang-woo's backstory, those 3 explicitly are made clear to only have recently got into crippling debt scenarios, Gi-hun is in contrast shown to have perpetually been in it for years before he was asked to join the games. This is a much more subtle hint that Gi-hun was the old man's son as opposed to an ordinary candidate (as well as the old man seeing Gi-hun after quitting or even the old man voting 'no' when he was the tiebreaker, respecting Gi-hun's wish).

The one thing against this theory is that the old man who clearly had sussed out the honey candy game being what it was, chose to let Gi-hun get umbrella (initially he let Gi-hun pick and insisted on it but Gi-hun then picked the umbrella and insisted the old man confirm he was okay with star). I also think the old man even knew the licking method and that holding the candy to the 'sun' would give a significant clue (given what he says about stars) but what confuses me is why he'd risk his own son losing on that particular task. I get that he is a darwinist and believes if his son didn't earn the win he doesn't deserve it and wanted to give his son a fair chance in life but I don't get that one time why he didn't either take umbrella or suddenly 'remember' the symbols and say they should all pick triangle.

My explanation of that is that the old man ultimately didn't think his son would win the whole thing, he was ready to break his own heart and see Gi-hun fail. This may also explain why he himself stalled the licking technique and was yes, using saliva to cut his own, but being slow. He was perhaps willing even to swap the candies if need be (I know, this is a stretch) but if you realise that if the rules dont' stop something then anything goes, then you'd understand.

What really confused me about the honey candy game was that the guards were so blatantly mispositioned to see some while watching others like hawks, it was perfect for cheaters, as we saw with the 'lighter' chick who would have had it confiscated and been killed/eliminated for ruining the 'entering the game as equals' concept etc. Even weirder was the Deuk-su was in sight of the cameras even if the guards weren't watching him. Surely one of the guards at least spotted what Deuk-su was doing. The only explanation I can think of is that the square guard who was involved with the organ harvesting saw it and didn't snitch because he planned on the doctor allying Deuk-su for a near-guaranteed win of the tug of war later on. That is the only explanation I could think of there. There is no way that the lighter being involved in the game matched the front man's 'equality' mantra.
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@RationalMadman
A lot of that could be right, and perhaps if it ends up being the case, I'll have a more favorable impression of the show. As it is, it's not that I'm negative on it, I'm just not as positive as I'd like to be, particularly on the ending. As for the motive being some interest in just proving to himself that people would backstab each other, that doesn't work very well for me, either. Seems more like a social experiment at that point, and if he is the kind of person who is just fascinated in seeing that kind of thing play out, then I'd still expect to see more indication of that. It came off as though he was just bored, rich, and set up this very elaborate and expensive game to put these indebted people go through hell. Maybe the end goal of that was philosophically-driven, but I'd really like to see more about why that's important to him. If he doesn't relish in watching their agony, then I'd like to see why this specific goal drives him. If that goal is just to deal with his son in the end, then in some ways that improves the story by providing him with personal stakes, and in others it diminishes it because everyone else was functionally window dressing.
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@whiteflame
Your 'window dressing' point applies to literally all series, most series have 2 characters that are way more pivotal to the storyline than the rest. It's extremely rare for that not to be the case.

Breaking Bad: Walter White and Jesse Pinkman
Naruto (3): Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura
Bleach: Ichigo and Ruki
Harry Potter (3): Harry Potter, Ronald Weasley and Hermione Granger
Star Wars: Initially, Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, later on Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker

These things are always there
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@whiteflame
Il-nam was apathetic, neither a pure sadist nor a saviour. He didn't care about the agony of others, it was mild entertainment for him.

He is, as I said, a clinical sociopath, not a psychopath. He has some emotions, just much less than an average person. Life is a joke to him.
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Yeah, but in most series, those side characters aren’t tools used by the main characters. I don’t mind side characters being side characters, I mind when their deaths are made virtually insignificant in retrospect. If Il-nam really doesn’t care about any of them, that doesn’t mean that the audience shouldn’t, but by reducing the story to the relationship between Il-nam and Gi-hun, it at least tells us that we shouldn’t care about them at all because they were all destined to die when they joined his game.

As for apathy being a motivator… yeah, I’m having trouble with that. One doesn’t go through all the trouble of creating these games solely for the purpose of satisfying mild entertainment, and if that really is the motivation, then it’s pretty weak to me. Whether sociopath or psychopath, characters in the driver seat like Il-nam just don’t seem all that interesting when their main motivation is boredom because they don’t present as someone who is desperate to escape said boredom. They present as someone who is just, as you say, apathetic and uncaring. Hell, by this point, even the spectacle seems to bore him to the point that he decided to put himself in the game. I understand that better, but as motivations for masterminds go, this doesn’t really work for me. Maybe that’s just me.
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Just binged it  and its amazing
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Glad you liked it, it is definitely deserving of its success.
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First 2 episodes were okay second was probably worst episode but then it really caught my attention after 3rd episode and watched every episode in a single night.
 
Wish there were more like it.
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marbles was pretty depressing.
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Marbles episode was phenomenal.
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@RationalMadman,
Marbles episode was phenomenal.

As was the bridge.
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@Stephen
Agree to disagree I guess. The glass game is where I really lost any sense of approval of the game's concept. Until the glass game, some degree of 'fairness' could be feigned, after that it was 100% out the window (pun intended).