Problems on Dart with commonly made type of arguments

Author: Mesmer

Posts

Total: 43
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
About 70% of the arguments I engage in on Dart are common/uncommon logical fallacious. Here are the most common ones I've come across and how to fix them:

(1) Ad Hominem -- when you attack the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. This is logically fallacious because even if the person has a negative trait, this in no way debunks the argument being made. Always avoid Ad Hominem.

(2) Appeal to Authority -- this incurs a similar problem to Ad Hominem in that the qualifications/position of someone is used as evidence, when again the evidence should be found within the argument itself, not who is making it. In times of knowing absolutely nothing about the topic, it may be reasonable to default to expert consensus. However, when material on the topic is available, you should never be using this line of reasoning.

(3) 'Lived experience' as evidence -- the issue with this is that you're applying your (potentially faulty) perception of events to make (potentially faulty) inductive conclusions. This renders whatever conclusion you draw likely fallacious because you are failing to control for confounding variables. Also, 'lived experience' lacks objectivity in that you're almost always unable to demonstrate your lived experience to other people. Again, in times of not knowing research and data on the topic, your lived experience may be the best evidence you have, but it is by default very poor due to the way it's constructed. Don't use 'lived experience' in your reasoning, unless you have nothing better.

(4) Begging the Question -- this occurs when you imbed the conclusion in your reasoning.  This is a logical fallacy because you can't use the conclusion you're trying to prove as evidence for the conclusion you're trying to prove (you haven't yet proven the conclusion!) Always avoid begging the question.

I hope this short post helps some people realize the invalid nature of their logic, and thus allows them to construct stronger arguments.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I would happily make the arguments for you being the banned user but I am told by mods I will get banned if I do that. There'd be zero logical fallacies.

Enjoy your racist posting while it lasts, which won't be long.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,190
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mesmer
Common/uncommon logical fallacious.
So which one then?

Or is it mix and match?
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
So which one then?

Or is it mix and match?
It's both.

Common and uncommon logical fallacies make up 70% of the arguments I've had addressed to me on Dart.

I listed and explained the most common ones, but the common ones don't themselves equal that 70%.

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,190
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mesmer
Isn't "logical fallacies" a contradiction in terms.
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
Isn't "logical fallacies" a contradiction in terms.
Nope.

Also, there's an entire Wikipedia article on it: Formal fallacy - Wikipedia .
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,190
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mesmer
One assumes that something that is logical, therefore isn't fallacious.

And so something that is fallacious won't be logical.


Can you explain why not in words greater than "Nope".
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Mesmer
Said the guy with 0 debates. Show, don't tell.

Are you perhaps talking about forums? Because forums is a place to talk, not engage in high-intensity debating. In reality, anybody who does that will get clapped with losses, sooner or later.


Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
@rationalmadman

I would happily make the arguments for you being the banned user but I am told by mods I will get banned if I do that. There'd be zero logical fallacies.

Enjoy your racist posting while it lasts, which won't be long.
He is talking about normal things about logic and you are talking about who he is and bringing out wrongdoings not even barely related to this topic thread.

RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
and you have assumed that they're a male, we all have things to learn 
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Oh, I am sorry.

But even then, this flaw existing does not make that one justified. Just saying.
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@RationalMadman
and you have assumed that they're a male,
"He" Is the grammatically correct singular pronoun to describe a person if you don't know their gender. 

949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@Sum1hugme
"He" Is the grammatically correct singular pronoun to describe a person if you don't know their gender. 
I entirely agree, but, our new gender definitions, with the likes of AOC now calling women "people who menstruate," as if any other real gender can, let alone would menstruate, just to avoid the "w" word, as if that gender no longer exists. The great god Kant is now calling the tune. Seems to me, Kant is more logical if rendered as Can't.
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Mesmer
You’re clearly not too smart. Leading debaters on this site would disagree with you; and I have not seen any of those fallacies used myself. Everyone here makes great arguments, and if that’s the case it’s not possible that these four fallacies are that common.
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
-->
@Ramshutu
i see what you did there.
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@drlebronski
The last one was the hardest..
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Ramshutu
 I have not seen any of those fallacies used myself.
I thought "fuck sex" is ironic enough, but this is like 20x better.

Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Intelligence_06
It seems that only about four people on this website think the forms are discussion and not necessarily debate thanks for saying it.
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Intelligence_06
Are you perhaps talking about forums? Because forums is a place to talk, not engage in high-intensity debating. In reality, anybody who does that will get clapped with losses, sooner or later.
This is a really bad comment.

Firstly, I've already addressed the idea (specifically responding to you) why debates aren't a great place to determine truth: Racism is a nonsense, malicious term v2.0 (debateart.com) . You didn't respond to that there.

Secondly, you've never provided a reason to prove that the "forums is a place to talk", as opposed to writing better, more rigorous arguments that could be used in a debate. In conjunction with my first point, we also have reason to be more rigorous in the forums.

Thirdly, and most importantly, there's really no good reason to use these logical fallacies. You're just making illogical arguments and attempting to excuse them, which is illogical.
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
One assumes that something that is logical, therefore isn't fallacious.

And so something that is fallacious won't be logical.

Can you explain why not in words greater than "Nope".
"Logical fallacy" is a commonly accepted term. Most people know what is meant when it is used. This is uncontroversial and frankly not worth arguing over.

If you feel the need to embrace your hyper-literal, fedora-tipping autism, use "formal fallacy" instead.
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Ramshutu
You’re clearly not too smart. Leading debaters on this site would disagree with you; and I have not seen any of those fallacies used myself. Everyone here makes great arguments, and if that’s the case it’s not possible that these four fallacies are that common.
Very clever :)
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,190
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mesmer
So you cannot explain in words greater than "Nope".

No problem.
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@RationalMadman
Huh
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@949havoc
I'm sorry, but nothing you said made any sense. Maybe I'm just missing the point...
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@Sum1hugme
If you mean my #13, it was mostly tongue-in-cheek, although I happen to believe kant can't. philosophize, that is.
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
You're wasting everyone's time.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,190
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mesmer
That's illogical and fallacious.

People waste their own time.

I can't do it for them.
dfss9788
dfss9788's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 152
1
2
2
dfss9788's avatar
dfss9788
1
2
2
-->
@Mesmer
Don't forget appeal to intellectual snobbery.
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@949havoc
I'll bite. What part of kant's philosophy do you disagree with?
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
appeal to authority is something that will always be a problem in any heavily liberal environment. Establishment bias means and liberals having control of the establishment means that sources considered credible by the establishment and also coincidentally funded by the establishment, will be liberally biased. It's not that there are no experts that agree with conservative positions (even many who are liberal), it's just that the establishment chooses which experts get heard. 

Since liberals are intellectually lazy (part of the reason they uncritically accept whatever the establishment tells them), they will just lazily say 

1. Believe A, because expert said believe A.

You can respond that the experts premises are flawed or that experts disagree, but they just come back with.

1. This is an establishment backed expert, and premises should be ignored for the experts opinion, however if we do look at premises, the silenced experts premises aren't to be trusted because they don't have the backing of CNN.