The Constitution is Utterly Worthless

Author: Dr.Franklin

Posts

Total: 64
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
The fact that 9 men in robes can pull some bullshit reason and claim it to "constitutional" in order to enact their own agenda means that the Constitution is utterly worthless.

Heres another example- in 1994 the people of California VOTED to stop the massive immigration and demographic change that was present there BUT a judge pulled some bullshit reason and declared it "unconstitutional", meaning it was voided, thats right in the United States of America a judge can declare something VIA THE CONSTITUTION to shut down something that WAS DEMOCRATICALLY DECIDED ON. This means that in effect-the Constitution actively worked against the will of the American people.

Something needs to change. The judges have too much power.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Dr.Franklin
....but then, when you ask, he calls himself a Conservative.
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 34
Posts: 5,754
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
Originalist type judges should be the only ones allowed, they are the only ones who actually preserve the intention of the constitution.  All judges who do not have originality styles are basically committing treason
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
-->
@oromagi
majority people in x state voted to make slavery legal BUT a judge pulled some bullshit reason and declared it "unconstitutional", meaning it was voided, thats right in the United States of America a judge can declare something VIA THE CONSTITUTION to shut down something that WAS DEMOCRATICALLY DECIDED ON. This means that in effect-the Constitution actively worked against the will of the American people.

Something needs to change. The judges have too much power.

Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@oromagi
please answer the thread, The constitution is set up in a way so that judges can go directly against the will of the people.

Why is it like this, how can we prevent this?

and yes im a conservative and i know they worship the constitution but they dont realize that the Constitution means absolutely nothing because what is "constitutional" in the first place is decided by regular people like me and you who have opinions
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
@lebronski

you realize that literally the exact opposite could happen too? a judge could keep slavery legal against the will of the people too
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Wylted
i agree
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
This thread is about the US constitution last time i checked the 13th amendment stopped slavery.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
Last time i checked I literally never mentioned the specific amendments themselves but only the Constitution's application when used in courts

please try and keep up.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,236
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Something needs to change. The judges have too much power.
The biggest flaw in our system of government is that it uses human beings to operate it and make decisions. I’m not sure I can offer a solution to that problem.

Someone will always get the final say, and that someone will always be able to impose an unjust verdict. The only thing we can do is support politicians who care about the basic values our system of government was founded on.

Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Theoretical question:

If the democratic (51%)will of the people In California was to re-establish slavery, should that be accepted?
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Double_R
i suppose so, but this judge was not elected and serves a lifetime appointment and they went against the will of an entire state. Is that concerning?
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Ramshutu
Im going to assume not because it is an official amendment. The amendments require a vast majority of elected officials to get passed. Nowhere in the Constitution did it note on the issue of immigration meaning that the non-elected and lifetime appointed judge struck down a decision on zero constitutional basis. See the difference?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Dr.Franklin
A Constitution on paper is all well and good but it is human Judges and Lawmakers that shall apply it and be the guardian of the people. Choose the people wisely, what's written can be handled later (via endless amendments and interpretation adjustments that set precedent).

In the end, the four or more dudes who just happened to write it are overly glorified as some super wise 'founding fathers' ooh la la, just because someone carved your face in a mountain and you were around first doesn't mean you're wiser at all. Adapt or perish, this is as true for Americans and their Constitution as it is for basically anything that's rigid and rooted in past judgement.
ResurgetExFavilla
ResurgetExFavilla's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 627
3
2
7
ResurgetExFavilla's avatar
ResurgetExFavilla
3
2
7
We need an American Cambyses.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,060
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
That's the way it works Doc.

The mass by itself is useless and disorganised.

Organised social function requires hierarchical structure.

Ultimately an individual.


Alternatively keep shooting the Judge, until you get the one you want Doc.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Dr.Franklin
-->@oromagi
please answer the thread, The constitution is set up in a way so that judges can go directly against the will of the people.  

Why is it like this,?
  • So let's just lock you in on this- 60% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in most circumstances, 80% in some circumstances.  You are saying that the SCOTUS decision last week not to overturn the Texas ban on most abortions was wrong because that SCOTUS decision goes directly against the will of the people.
  • You must therefore oppose the 2016 election of Donald Trump and the 2000 election of George W. Bush since those too, went against the will of the people.
  • Likewise, you will oppose the new state laws like in Georgia and Texas  that allow Republican-held election boards to overturn Democratic majorities at polls.
##################
  • The Constitution is like this by design.  The will of the majority is fickle and reactionary but it is the engine of our Republic.  The founding fathers chose to temper the mob's instability with representation by state and by district and judges bound by precedent and executives bound by tradition.  We want the majority opinion to prevail but just one election seldom represent the majority well. 
    • Let's use your 1994 anti-immigration law as a good example of what I am talking about.  
 in 1994 the people of California VOTED to stop the massive immigration and demographic change that was present there BUT a judge pulled some bullshit reason and declared it "unconstitutional", meaning it was voided, thats right in the United States of America a judge can declare something VIA THE CONSTITUTION to shut down something that WAS DEMOCRATICALLY DECIDED ON. This means that in effect-the Constitution actively worked against the will of the American people.California pop in 1994 was 31 million
        • In 1994 the people of California number 31 million
          • of these,  19 million were eligible voters
            • of these,  14.3 were registered voters
              • of these, 5 million voted for PROP 187
                • only 3.5 million voted against
    • You say that PROP 187 represented the will of the people but the truth is that 16%, less than one in 6 Californians voted for it.
      • Since passage of PROP 187 is widely seen as marking the end of Republican party power in California, we can infer that a more engaged electorate would have rejected this proposals.  Republicans were energized by a popular moderate Republican Gubernatorial candidate, Pete Wilson
      • Although non-Hispanic whites comprised 57% of California's population at the time, they comprised 81% of voters in the 1994 general election. Latinos totaled 8% of voters, although they comprised 26% of the state's population.
        • reaction to PROP 187 went a long way towards correcting this imbalance.
      • "will of the people" is not supported by the evidence
  • A Federal Judge ruled that most of the law was political posturing- illegally claiming state control over federal foreign policy, federal national security, and federal social security.  An appeal process was begun but by that point it was apparent that PROP 187 opposition had energized Black and Hispanic voters in the state at Republican expense and the state had moved solidly left.  Although the law stayed on the books until 2014, even future Republican Governors would not touch it with 10-foot pole, the people hated it so much.
    • Yes, the Constitution gives the Federal Govt oversight of foreign policy and national security so the Republicans created a law they knew would get struck down in Federal courts but got to fundraise off the anti-immigrant and anti-Mexican contingents for many, many years.
      • Any legislature that was actually serious about stopping illegal immigration would pass a law that gave a little time in prison for employers.  The employees are desperate and risks to save their lives- that kind of motivation is hard to adjust.  But put a few of the rich men who profit by underpaying illegal immigrant in jail.  The Trump Organization, for example, has been caught using illegal immigrants as recently as 2019.  I bet if we put Don, Jr. in jail for 18 months for his role in employing illegal immigrants the demand for illegal immigrants would crash and supply would follow.
        • Therefore, no legislature has ever seriously tried to halt immigration.
        • Certainly the pandemic has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that native born citizens will not take the jobs that illegal immigrants normally do for us and that illegal trade fulfills a vital role in our economy.
how can we prevent this?   
  • Fascist coup like Trump tried Sixth of January is probably your best option.  Then Trump can claim 90% support in every election and Fox will define the people's will for them.  No judges will ever dare contradict the will of the people when it is controlled by a sufficiently ruthless executive.
and yes im a conservative
Sorry, but that's just a label you are tagging yourself with.  No genuine American Conservative would ever argue that "The Constitution is Utterly Worthless."
You are just demonstrating that you don't understand the fundamentals of Conservativism.

and i know they worship the constitution but they dont realize that the Constitution means absolutely nothing
Anti-Conservative as well as anti-Liberal.  You are arguing that the most stable and prosperous instrument of government devised by humankind means "absolutely nothing."  Do you  have an alternative form of government that you'd like to suggest?

because what is "constitutional" in the first place is decided by regular people like me and you who have opinions
Shall we agree that the majority of all Americans holds and by rights ought to hold the ultimate reigns of power- of the people, by the people, for the people?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@oromagi
 You are arguing that the most stable and prosperous instrument of government devised by humankind means "absolutely nothing."  Do you  have an alternative form of government that you'd like to suggest?
Each iteration of it post-amendment is what I suggest to each former version of it.

It's nonsense, really it is. For instance the first and second amendment imply that a bunch of loudmouthed (expression includes art, so there'd be vulgar gore and porn eveywhere), heavily armed maniacs result in a safer citizenry than both elements of that being tamed. I get it, the other extreme is bad but the constitution in its original form is a series of extreme nonsense ideals that needed amending to make sense for society. 

This is the whole problem when you put the founding fathers and whatever they happened to slap on the constitution as sacred and unquestionable, it just isn't. In fact, there's so much they missed out even.

Legally, it has authority and all who are in the US must respect that but genuinely on an intellectual level for society, it's flawed to overly hold it as sacred and tantamount to an immovable object that should not be questioned.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
ya, because you can ignore it. Who cares about the risk of being beaten up and enclosed in a small gray space with bad meals, stiff beds and mean-tempered people?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Intelligence_06
I know that in China, your Constitution is designed against the people and in favour of the government but when the term 'Constitution' is used in this thread, it means the other way around.

I'm just letting you know that, I know this sounds sarcastic but I'm clearing up a genuine misunderstanding by you.
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
you realize that literally the exact opposite could happen too? a judge could keep slavery legal against the will of the people too
Good point!!
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Dr.Franklin
So I’m not sure if you’re aware of how common  law works: but the constitution establishes the principle of the Supreme Court, which is the ultimate court in making determinations of law. It’s not just the constitution that matters, it’s also precedent from common law.

The constitution basically provides the equivalent of unappealable president - eg; if the constitution says no, then the answer is no.

If the constitution doesn’t say anything in a contested matter; then the courts and Supreme Court has authority to make an ultimate ruling on it; this forms the principle of precedent that must then be followed by other courts.

For example; in the constitution, naturalization is given exclusively to the federal government, and previous precedents it’s established that and Federal government has jurisdiction on immigration.

Which kinda makes sense, you don’t want California to, say, vote to grant legal status to illegal immigrants; who then may cross into other states: the whole premise of a federal system is to be able to mediate issues where one states rules impacts an other state (part of the Commerce clause).


The issue is not that 9 judges have this power; it’s that in a system of laws and torts, you will always require some ultimate arbiter of what the law means, how it applies, and to rule on whether individuals have crossed the line.

The only question is who that is. Is it for the people to decide? It already is; you have the ability to elect people in Congress and to the president to chose the Supreme Court appointees: to ammend the constitution - ultimately overriding what the judges say.

Saying that, Prop 187 never made it to the Supreme Court for them to make that decision - it went through the court system, and the challenge was pulled by Gray Davis in 1999.


The suggestion that the court should only rule on the explicit content of the constitution, very much cuts both ways:

For example Granting legal status to illegal immigrants - against precedent, but not against the constitution.

All blue states could require militias to be registered and regulated; and weapons ownership could be limited to those who have signed up as part of a militia, with the weapons to be stored in secure facilities run by that militia, and not carried personally. That meets the text of the 2nd amendment, but not the established precedent.

There’s many more I could list that fly in the face of what we have established in precedent but not the constitution.


As mentioned, the constitution itself you have the checks and balances that give control over the courts; democratically elected federal officials control nomination and appointment, and removal of federal and Supreme Court judges. 


The original statement in your title, though, has some merit. 

The constitution itself, has no specific worth other than what you give it. If people think the constitution is worthless, it becomes so.

If for example, a President abuses their power, overrides congress on spending power; refuses to submit to confessional oversight - the constitution expects that the house will impeach and, of the accusations are true, the senate will convict - but if the senate don’t care, and acquit regardless of the evidence because the person is in their party - the constitution is meaningless.

Likewise, if a party, say, intentionally loads the federal bench with unqualified partisan hacks for the primary purpose of being able to jam through their laws, and oppose their opponents; then there’s not much you can do; if that same party then uses that court to say, override election results, enact laws that disenfranchise one side; and allow for substantial partisan gerrymandering or restriction of the press under the guise of “disinformation” ; then you've not only shown the constitution is worthless; but you’ve also lost your democracy along with it.


The constitution is only meaningful, if doing the right thing, acting in good faith, adhering to the rule of law is more important than winning; and that both sides recognize that in the other.

The issue here is not the judges; or the power they have: it’s that when you see decisions you disagree with and assume it’s abuse; circumvent the constitution to stop your guys losing power, and support jamming of partisans onto the courts because they’ll agree with you; and you support whatever actions lead to you getting the policies you want  - that’s when the contrition becomes worthless.





949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@Ramshutu
@Dr.Franklin
Ramshutu's #22 is perfectly sensible and correct.

I'll add that, contrary to your assumption of SCOTUS bias one way or another [and using a CA state judge to exemplify your position is a mixed metaphor - you should stick with the supremes if that is your point - and they have, at times, made horrible judgments, but then, they have reversed themselves some 200 times in their history, so, they do have a way of correction, and it basically works over time. Further, you might be aware, but I'll bet you're not, that the decision ratio of SCOTUS has its highest plurality in unanimous decisions at 59%, so the idea of rogue justices carrying the Court is just wrong. For example, the infamous Roe v. Wade of 1973 happened to have been decided primarily by justices who were appointed by Repub presidents - 4 of the 7. So, politics on the Court sometimes fools everyone. Not to mention that several justices have said publicly since, including Ginsberg, that Roe v. Wade may not have been fully justified in its 1973 decision and ought to be revisted - another reversal in the cards?
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@oromagi
those are opinion polls nationwide, these are legislatures who were elected who made laws in their own state
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@949havoc
do you understand the function of a Constitution. It is suppose to be the fundamental law of the land yet the rulings and interpretations of it can be reversed?? why
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Yes. the Constitution's purpose is well understood. Why can decisions be reversed? Because that is the will of a free society. Law changes, my friend, it is not an absolute. Truth is absolute, but not law. The distinction is, as Madison so rightly concluded, if men were better angels, they would not need law; they would govern themselves correctly by true principles without need of any law but natural law; that by which even God governs himself.

And that is why BLM and 1619 are out in the weeds. This nation was not established in 1619, and when it was established, officially, in 1788, it mentioned not one word regarding slavery. The word, in fact, does not exist in the document, until the XIIIth amendment, in 1865, abolishing the practice.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@oromagi
orry, but that's just a label you are tagging yourself with.  No genuine American Conservative would ever argue that "The Constitution is Utterly Worthless."
You are just demonstrating that you don't understand the fundamentals of Conservativism.
The Constitution is useless in application to Courts not in principle.


Anti-Conservative as well as anti-Liberal.  You are arguing that the most stable and prosperous instrument of government devised by humankind means "absolutely nothing."  Do you  have an alternative form of government that you'd like to suggest?
How is this the best government in mankind? Every single country today has a Constitution but not all of them allow it to be "up for interpretation" when it comes to courts. 

Shall we agree that the majority of all Americans holds and by rights ought to hold the ultimate reigns of power- of the people, by the people, for the people?
Yes they do hold rights, do you think they have a right to make a democratic statewide decision where the Consitition does not make a point on?
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@949havoc
your not quite getting it, yes laws can be reversed over time and even amendments can be voided within the Constitution but requires a major amount of political capital for that to happen, however a single judge can shut down a vote she doesnt like and claim it was "unconstitutional" out of nowhere.
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
havoc most definitely understands the constitution.
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@Dr.Franklin
however a single judge can shut down a vote she doesnt like and claim it was "unconstitutional" out of nowhere.
But, a single judge on SCOTUS can do nothing. As Ramshutu told you, SCOTUS is the final legal authority, not some state judge, as I told you. And SCoTUS acts as a quorum. Don't mix your metaphors.