Pettiness from extremists

Author: TheUnderdog

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@TheUnderdog
Me: WE ARE ALMOST $30 TRILLION IN DEBT!  This is a bigger issue than both of these combined!
Being $30 Trillion in debt is a problem and I can offer some solutions.

The cost of having African Americans in America costs around $1 trillion a year Fiscal Impact by Race in the United States - altCensored . A good policy would be to stop African immigration into the U.S. (or at least vet for the top Africans). We can also (and we are) look into automation and robotics to replace the low-skilled jobs that a lot of African Americans typically do, thus relieve the U.S. of some of the burden of importing the 3rd world to complete these jobs. A similar but lesser problem applies to Hispanics. A solution for Hispanics would be to deport illegals back to South America (this deportation is cost effective because you only need to transport them over the border). You could also limit Hispanic immigration, too. You furthermore replace any African/Hispanic immigration into the U.S. with an Asian and the U.S. would be financially better off.

The U.S. is planned to give Israel $3.8 billion per year for the next decade U.S. Military Funding to Israel - US Campaign for Palestinian Rights (uscpr.org) . There is no good reason to be doing this, and U.S. involvement in the Middle East inspires terrorist attacks against the U.S (as I previously cited, 9/11 cost $3 trillion, and $0.8 billion for the 1993 WTC attack). Getting out of the Middle East would save America a lot of money.

Those are a couple, easy to understand solutions to help with America's debt.

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Systemic racism is real but assimilation of Muslims towards a 'Western' culture is dependent on them and the community within that culture. It's neither a definitely yes or definitely no type thing. They do assimilate though, just not always. 
These are all bare assertions.

Once again, you've failed to adequately support anything you say.

Cue the Ad homs...
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@Nyxified
I don't think either of these are extremists

U.S. debt to GDP ratio was ~108% in 2020. While this is a problem, I don't see why we can't tax the 1% and use the money to overhaul our system of policing or anti-terrorism, since neither of those seem to be working.
The Liberal reaction is extreme in that they often riot, burn, loot and murder when Black Americans are justly killed for their violence against police officers.

How did you come to the conclusion that the United States policing system doesn't seem to be working? Sure, it's not perfect, but no police system will ever be because it's comprised of humans (who make mistakes). News reporting on "systemic police brutality" or whatever is just fake news designed to get you hot-headed and watching them more, so that they can run more ads and make more money.

The best "anti-terrorism" policy the U.S. could have would be to get out of the Middle East. Stop bombing Middle Eastern countries (and receiving costly terrorist attacks in response: 9/11 costing $3 trillion). Stop supporting Israel (0.38 trillion over the next 10 years). Just get out and leave them all alone.
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@Dr.Franklin
And what percentage of conservatives hate liberals for being liberal.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other, as my dear Mum used to say Doc.
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@TheUnderdog
Paying off the debt will be easy.
I'm not sure you know how money works.
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@Mesmer
Stop bombing Middle Eastern countries (and receiving costly terrorist attacks in response: 9/11 costing $3 trillion). Stop supporting Israel (0.38 trillion over the next 10 years). Just get out and leave them all alone.
(EITHER) conquer territory and make the inhabitants american citizens (OR) leave them the fuck alone and respect their sovereignty
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@Mesmer
The cost of having African Americans in America costs around $1 trillion a year Fiscal Impact by Race in the United States - altCensored . A good policy would be to stop African immigration into the U.S. (or at least vet for the top Africans). We can also (and we are) look into automation and robotics to replace the low-skilled jobs that a lot of African Americans typically do, thus relieve the U.S. of some of the burden of importing the 3rd world to complete these jobs. A similar but lesser problem applies to Hispanics. A solution for Hispanics would be to deport illegals back to South America (this deportation is cost effective because you only need to transport them over the border). You could also limit Hispanic immigration, too. You furthermore replace any African/Hispanic immigration into the U.S. with an Asian and the U.S. would be financially better off.
There it is.
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@RationalMadman
Systemic racism is real but assimilation of Muslims towards a 'Western' culture is dependent on them and the community within that culture. It's neither a definitely yes or definitely no type thing. They do assimilate though, just not always. 
Cult(ure) is like language.

Neither is some sort of eternal immutable monolith.
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@Mesmer
 Muslims into your country, you're bringing in a
(1) Would you call yourself an "isolationist" ?

(2) Do you believe in "freedom of religion" ?
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@3RU7AL
No, it isn't. Culture has moral values as part of it, language doesn't. Learn to read things in context.
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@RationalMadman
No, it isn't. Culture has moral values as part of it, language doesn't. Learn to read things in context.
I'm not suggesting they're SYNONYMS.

I'm pointing out that they are both DYNAMIC.
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@Mesmer
"Justly killed for their violence against officers"
My friend, if I have to be the one to inform you that nobody deserves to die unless their death is the only way to prevent significant harm or death of others, you are beyond help. I don't know how to explain to you that an officer perceiving an individual to be 'violent' does not warrant their execution.

I don't think George Floyd needed to die when he was already restrained and unable to breathe.

I don't think Philando Castile needed to be murdered because someone had an itchy trigger finger.

I don't think Jacob Blake needed to be shot 7 times for the crime of opening the door to the van with his 3 kids inside.

I can't wait for you to tell me that putting a knee on someone's neck for nine minutes as they beg for air is 'just' or 'preventing violence.' The deaths or injury of these men is not 'fake news'; I assure you that their tombstones are very real. I not only support those who want to tear down the system borne from union-busting and slave catching that routinely commits these murders with no consequence, but I am disgusted at those who can look at that system and claim that it is just.
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@zedvictor4
far less than 20%
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@3RU7AL
(EITHER) conquer territory and make the inhabitants american citizens (OR) leave them the fuck alone and respect their sovereignty
Latter option is the best. America needs to stop playing the savior to the world and focus on getting its own country right. This is a fault that a lot of White nations make: they try to "save" other countries. Just don't. They don't like it when you interfere, and hell, they sometimes don't even like it when you actually help them.

There it is.
Feel free to correct anything you think is wrong.

(1) Would you call yourself an "isolationist" ?

(2) Do you believe in "freedom of religion" ?
(1) I really don't think it's reasonable to be 100% isolationist, but certainly to a large degree. I want America to stop importing people who are a net drain on the economy and whom won't ever integrate. I think it's reasonable to allow immigration of people (regardless of race/religion) as long as they're highly skilled and/or highly intelligent. Although, America needs to keep its population majority White or else it will degrade into something like Brazil, and eventually South Africa.

(2) I think American citizens should be free to believe in whatever religion they want, so yes. I think that we should intentionally not import people whose cultures/religions are going to conflict heavily with the native population's.
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@Nyxified
My friend, if I have to be the one to inform you that nobody deserves to die unless their death is the only way to prevent significant harm or death of others, you are beyond help.
Did you not read what I wrote?

I literally describe a situation wherein a criminal stole a taser from a police officer and fired it at him. I will copy-paste the part again:

"We can add to this fact that when police officers do kill Black people, it's often justified as the Black person has lashed out in his/her resistance of arrest. For example, Rayshard Brooks decided to resist arrest and steal an officer's taser and tried to shoot officers with it." 

This killing of Rayshard Brooks is 100% justified. I didn't mention any of the other people you mentioned. Yes, it's possible that Black people are unjustly shot at the hands of a White police officer, but that happens so infrequently that it's nowhere near the "systemic racism" that you people like to push. 

I don't know how to explain to you that an officer perceiving an individual to be 'violent' does not warrant their execution.
When someone points and fires a taser at you, that's a real act of violence. There's no 'oh you're just perceiving that taser shot at you. That's not a real attempt at violence'. 

What a ridiculous argument to make.

I can't wait for you to tell me that putting a knee on someone's neck for nine minutes as they beg for air is 'just' or 'preventing violence.' The deaths or injury of these men is not 'fake news'; I assure you that their tombstones are very real. I not only support those who want to tear down the system borne from union-busting and slave catching that routinely commits these murders with no consequence, but I am disgusted at those who can look at that system and claim that it is just.
Just like I predicted, you turned an isolated incident of a White police officer using too much force against a Black person into 'systemic racism'. 

I've already sourced my argument which stated that there are 48 (unarmed) Black deaths per year at the hands of ALL police officers (regardless of race). Of the 48 PER YEAR that are shot, how many do you think would be unjustified AND done by White police officers? You've managed to (potentially) provide 3 examples, one of which I will automatically agree was unjustified (George Floyd, although he was a garbage human being). I don't know much about the other cases, but let's just grant you them for the sake of argument. That's THREE individual cases, and you've turned that into 'systemic racism'.

I am disgusted with YOU for turning ultra-rare individual cases into a hyperbolic exaggeration of 'systemic racism'

FYI America was responsible for ending slavery worldwide. Arabs History of slavery in the Muslim world - Wikipedia, Jews Jewish Dominance Of The African Slave Trade | Christians for Truth, Chinese Slavery in China - Wikipedia and quite frankly most of the world engaged in slavery up until America decided to end it. Furthermore, there's a good reason there aren't many African slave descendants still in the Middle East, Jewish occupied land and China: the slaves were worked brutally hard and often until they dropped dead (unlike in America). Yes, slavery was wrong, but America was the one that ended it. You blaming ONLY America for slavery and ignoring the fact that America ended slavery worldwide, is you being an anti-American idiot.
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@Mesmer
Just like I predicted, you turned an isolated incident of a White police officer using too much force against a Black person into 'systemic racism'.
The killer of George Floyd said it was apart of his training. No officer at the scene stopped him for an insane amount of time despite his pleas.

Philando Castile went out of his way to declare his firearm. It was later said that police are trained to liberally use their firearms.

Jacob Blake was shot 7 times despite not being violent (according to bystanders), not having a weapon, and not doing anything wrong in spite of the fact police could've very easily used a taser and had done so minutes earlier.

When Breonna Taylor was murdered, a policeman blindly shot an assault rifle into the house.

Eric Garner, Elijah McClain, do you want me to keep going? Even if I agree the number is only 48, which you say as though it is anything less than an annual killing spree, which it isn't, I still think that maybe the police could use their non-lethal tools more effectively with regards to unarmed black people when they have tasers capable of completely immobilizing a person and are literally trained for months to do this.

I could present to you a thousand instances and you'd still tell me it was 'isolated'. The part that makes it systemic is that this happens to thousands of black Americans and an incredibly small number of their killers face persecution, with the exception of George Floyd, who's murder caused nationwide protests and riots for months and we still weren't even certain Derek Chauvin would face jail time. The very system that is supposed to hold them accountable for the actions that disproportionately impact black people to an egregious degree chose not to do so. Not turning on body cams, planting drugs or weapons on people, using excessive force, the list of things that police officers routinely get away with that we make no attempt to persecute them for or enforce rules to prevent these actions goes on, and on, and on.

Having a taser doesn't count as 'unarmed', but to be honest, I don't think murder should be the first option when there's several non-lethal places to shoot first and it's literally part of their job to be good at shooting things. I tell you that perceiving someone as 'violent' doesn't warrant ending their life, and you give me an example of someone shooting an officer with a taser. Even if it made sense, you know damn well that's not what I'm talking about.

And what of the parts that don't result in death? The fact black Americans are more likely to be pulled over, more likely to be harassed, less likely to be listened to by police, more likely to be perceived as violent? Black Americans are put through egregious, inhumane, and horrendous situations for the very crime of their race as the result of failing to keep in check the power of racist police officers. That's what systemic racism is.

Congratulations, America! You ended slavery (ignoring how the British did it first) 'worldwide', and yet somehow that manages to be a) completely irrelevant to what I'm saying and b) even more irrelevant because it took you until the 1960s-1970s to acknowledge that black people deserve the same rights. Well done for refuting the thing I said about slavery (which I definitely said and if you ctrl+f you will definitely find me mentioning slavery [sarcasm])

There are more options than 1. Let the (potential) criminal run away or 2: Murder them. Police are paid $60,000+ a year to understand that, and yet it seems they choose to forget much more often with blacks than with whites (28% of police killings in 2020 happened to blacks despite the fact they're 13% of the population).

Try harder to justify your loyalty to the police state next time.
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@Dr.Franklin
I'll need your stats Doc.
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@Dr.Franklin
Access denied.
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@zedvictor4
Dr.F's reference website says 1 in 5 Democrats AND Republicans think that people of the opposite political party are 'evil' according to a new poll.
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@FLRW
He must have overlooked the AND REPUBLICANS bit...LOL

He's full of the Blarney....Begorrah.
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@Nyxified
Firstly, I need to correct myself because when I wrote "Did you not read what I wrote?" that was unjust as I was addressing TheUnderdog with the post I was referencing, not you. My apologies for that mistake.

We can add to this fact that when police officers do kill Black people, it's often justified as the Black person has lashed out in his/her resistance of arrest. For example, Rayshard Brooks decided to resist arrest and steal an officer's taser and tried to shoot officers with it. This killing of Rayshard Brooks is 100% justified.
Having a taser doesn't count as 'unarmed', but to be honest, I don't think murder should be the first option when there's several non-lethal places to shoot first and it's literally part of their job to be good at shooting things. I tell you that perceiving someone as 'violent' doesn't warrant ending their life, and you give me an example of someone shooting an officer with a taser. Even if it made sense, you know damn well that's not what I'm talking about.
It's pretty hard to use the "non-lethal" tools when Rayshard has literally stolen your non-lethal taser and fired it at you LOL.

Again, this whole 'oh you're just perceiving that taser shot at you'; 'that's not a real attempt at violence' is just you not understanding the real world. When you're by yourself and immobilized by a taser (which hurts, btw -- that's already violence), and a criminal is your vicinity, do you think good things are about to happen? Sometimes, very clearly, there are REAL threats that can be made against a police officer (firing a taser is absolutely one of them). So, sometimes, this isn't about "perception" or whatever 'everything is subjective' argument you want to make. It's just astonishing that you think having a taser fired at you shouldn't be counted as violence.

I used this example because there were still riots that resulted. This is exactly what you are talking about because people like you went out and rioted over this FALSE narrative that Rayshard was murdered in cold blood by the police, when this was very clearly an instance of a police officer's self-defense.

The killer of George Floyd said it was apart of his training. No officer at the scene stopped him for an insane amount of time despite his pleas.

Philando Castile went out of his way to declare his firearm. It was later said that police are trained to liberally use their firearms.

Jacob Blake was shot 7 times despite not being violent (according to bystanders), not having a weapon, and not doing anything wrong in spite of the fact police could've very easily used a taser and had done so minutes earlier.

When Breonna Taylor was murdered, a policeman blindly shot an assault rifle into the house.

Eric Garner, Elijah McClain, do you want me to keep going? Even if I agree the number is only 48, which you say as though it is anything less than an annual killing spree, which it isn't, I still think that maybe the police could use their non-lethal tools more effectively with regards to unarmed black people when they have tasers capable of completely immobilizing a person and are literally trained for months to do this.
Off the top of my head, George Floyd was unjustly murdered and Breonna Taylor was probably justly killed (just read the Wikipedia page on it).

But we don't need to get into these weeds. Hypothetically, let's just say that all these instances were unjust murders. You've failed to show that:

(A) That all 6 instances of these murders of Black people are due to systemic racism and not just individual racial hatred
(B) That systemic racism effects the other 41 MILLION Black people in America
(C) Therefore, systemic racism exists

These are necessary steps to make the systemic racism argument that you're making. You can't go from 6 Black people may have been killed because of their race, to America is systemically racist in one giant leap. This is why you shouldn't use anecdotes to portray ALL of America.

I could present to you a thousand instances and you'd still tell me it was 'isolated'.
I'm calling your bluff -- show me these "thousand instances" and I will absolutely change my tune.

I'd bet my life savings you won't.

The very system that is supposed to hold them accountable for the actions that disproportionately impact black people to an egregious degree chose not to do so. Not turning on body cams, planting drugs or weapons on people, using excessive force, the list of things that police officers routinely get away with that we make no attempt to persecute them for or enforce rules to prevent these actions goes on, and on, and on.
You need to demonstrate ALL of this, or else these are all bare assertions (logical fallacies).

If you're able to do that, you also need to demonstrate that this is 'systemic racism' and not individual instances of police being corrupt.

Good luck with that lol.

The fact black Americans are more likely to be pulled over, more likely to be harassed, less likely to be listened to by police, more likely to be perceived as violent? Black Americans are put through egregious, inhumane, and horrendous situations for the very crime of their race as the result of failing to keep in check the power of racist police officers. That's what systemic racism is.
It's just baffling that you determine all these claims to be "fact" yet don't provide a shred of evidence to back ANY of the claims.

Do you understand how ridiculous you sound? Do you understand how logically invalid your argument is here?

Congratulations, America! You ended slavery (ignoring how the British did it first) 'worldwide', and yet somehow that manages to be a) completely irrelevant to what I'm saying and b) even more irrelevant because it took you until the 1960s-1970s to acknowledge that black people deserve the same rights. Well done for refuting the thing I said about slavery (which I definitely said and if you ctrl+f you will definitely find me mentioning slavery [sarcasm])
But you did mention slavery Pettiness from extremists (debateart.com):

"the system borne from union-busting and slave catching"

I just felt the need to correct you on slandering the US with the 'slavery' charge when the US was the most charitable to slaves AND they helped to end slavery.

There are more options than 1. Let the (potential) criminal run away or 2: Murder them. Police are paid $60,000+ a year to understand that, and yet it seems they choose to forget much more often with blacks than with whites (28% of police killings in 2020 happened to blacks despite the fact they're 13% of the population).
This is a false dichotomy that fails to even come close to addressing the context in which most police shootings happen. Police use discretion and their training to produce WAY more options than your 1 and 2. 

For example, we have a police officer here do neither 1 or 2 of your options (points a gun at a robber without firing or letting the robber flee): https://youtu.be/1mSAuPMCTks?t=30 . We could extract many more examples from this Youtube channel showcasing real footage of real police interactions that show your dichotomy is false.

The fact that more Black people get shot by police isn't proof of "murder". There are confounding variables that you've failed to account for that do explain this disproportion WITHOUT needed to resort to your 'systemic racism' garbage. We have the Rayshard Brooks example where he stole and fired the police officer's taser at them. We also have extensive empirical data analysis which very clearly shows there is no anti-Black bias in police shootings On Racial Bias in Police Shootings | Ideas and Data (wordpress.com) . 
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@zedvictor4
hi zed
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ok;.

7 days later

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@Mesmer
The cost of having African Americans in America costs around $1 trillion a year 
African Americans pay for themselves through the tax dollars they pay.  I don’t trust your source.

A good policy would be to stop African immigration into the U.S. (or at least vet for the top Africans)

A better way to get out of debt is to allow as many workers in the US as we can get to increase the taxpayer count as much as we can to make paying off the debt easier.


We can also (and we are) look into automation and robotics to replace the low-skilled jobs that a lot of African Americans typically do, thus relieve the U.S. of some of the burden of importing the 3rd world to complete these jobs.
The only time I would support automation is if there is a better alternative for the worker being automated.

A solution for Hispanics would be to deport illegals back to South America (this deportation is cost effective because you only need to transport them over the border).
If we deport people, we lose the sales tax they pay.  I made a complex plan to get us out of debt.  Want to check it out?

I’m with you on not funding Israel any more.  I don’t like America picking sides in foreign conflicts.

Muslims don't assimilate into populations. Muslims tend to want Sharia and a caliphate wherever they go Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center (pewforum.org). When you bring Muslims into your country, you're bringing in a population that will contest your systems -- that's a real reason to oppose Muslim immigration.
There are 1 billion Muslims and 1.7 billion westerners.  If every single Muslim moved to a western country, they would still be the minority in the west.  Since this will never happen, Muslims will always be a minority in the west in our lifetimes unless enough westerners get converted.  

Moreover, the children of Muslims are much more secular than the parents.  Not allowing Muslims to enter your country because they are theocrats is like not letting Bible Belt conservatives into your country because they are theocrats.

Two Muslim terrorist attacks have cost the U.S. significant amounts, around $3 trillion for 9/11, and $800 million in the other WTC attack The 10 Most Expensive Terrorist Attacks In History | TheRichest
I think your statistics are over blown.  The US annual budget for the entire government is $3 trillion.  No way does a terrorist attack cost that much.  America has spent more killing middle easterners than it has spent on Middle Easterners attacking the US.  But when your odds of dying from a terror attack is very small, your being petty if your worried about it.
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@TheUnderdog
The cost of having African Americans in America costs around $1 trillion a year 
African Americans pay for themselves through the tax dollars they pay.  I don’t trust your source.
This is an argument from incredulity as you gave no objective reason for us not to trust the source. The fact that you don't trust something doesn't make the source untrustable.

I've also demonstrated that African Americans don't pay for themselves, so at this stage you're objectively wrong.

A good policy would be to stop African immigration into the U.S. (or at least vet for the top Africans)
A better way to get out of debt is to allow as many workers in the US as we can get to increase the taxpayer count as much as we can to make paying off the debt easier.
You haven't demonstrated this at all.

We also currently know this is wrong because of the $1 trillion a year African Americans cost. Hispanics are also a net negative on the American economy (referenced in the same video).

We can also (and we are) look into automation and robotics to replace the low-skilled jobs that a lot of African Americans typically do, thus relieve the U.S. of some of the burden of importing the 3rd world to complete these jobs.
The only time I would support automation is if there is a better alternative for the worker being automated.
You haven't given us a reason to agree with you.

A solution for Hispanics would be to deport illegals back to South America (this deportation is cost effective because you only need to transport them over the border).
If we deport people, we lose the sales tax they pay.  I made a complex plan to get us out of debt.  Want to check it out?

I’m with you on not funding Israel any more.  I don’t like America picking sides in foreign conflicts.
Again, Hispanics are a net negative on the US economy.

Sure, you can post it.

I'm glad we agree on the Israel thing.

Muslims don't assimilate into populations. Muslims tend to want Sharia and a caliphate wherever they go Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center (pewforum.org). When you bring Muslims into your country, you're bringing in a population that will contest your systems -- that's a real reason to oppose Muslim immigration.
There are 1 billion Muslims and 1.7 billion westerners.  If every single Muslim moved to a western country, they would still be the minority in the west.  Since this will never happen, Muslims will always be a minority in the west in our lifetimes unless enough westerners get converted.  

Moreover, the children of Muslims are much more secular than the parents.  Not allowing Muslims to enter your country because they are theocrats is like not letting Bible Belt conservatives into your country because they are theocrats.
You don't need to be a majority to contest systems. For example, African Americans are a minority in America and yet BLM is globally known. Chaz was a thing. 'Systemic racism' is a wrong conception that a lot of people believe affects African Americans.

You haven't provided a source for your second paragraph. Let's fix that before we start making arguments that extend from it.

Two Muslim terrorist attacks have cost the U.S. significant amounts, around $3 trillion for 9/11, and $800 million in the other WTC attack The 10 Most Expensive Terrorist Attacks In History | TheRichest
I think your statistics are over blown.  The US annual budget for the entire government is $3 trillion.  No way does a terrorist attack cost that much.  America has spent more killing middle easterners than it has spent on Middle Easterners attacking the US.  But when your odds of dying from a terror attack is very small, your being petty if your worried about it.
This is another argument from incredulity. You've provided no real reasoning to demonstrate that these terrorist attacks cannot have costed that much.

Your middle argument isn't sourced. If you're not going to source anything you say, I have better things to read. I'm tempted to agree with it but I won't without a source.

The fear and cost of terror attacks are the real killers of countries (the cost I've already talked about; fear far harder to quantify). 3000 people dying in an attack is obviously horrific for the people involved, though.
sadolite
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We are all extremists.
Double_R
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@TheUnderdog
Democrats are the party of tolerance (until you decide to open carry an AK 47, be mask less, or be without a vaccine.  Then they will not be tolerant.  They will justify this using some weird logic, but in the end they aren't being tolerant of your life choices.)
Yes, Democrats are tolerant… until you endanger the health and safety of others and/or the general public. Can you explain what is hypocritical about this, since you’re so above the rest of us and our political opinions?
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@Double_R
Can you explain what is hypocritical about this, since you’re so above the rest of us and our political opinions?

He thinks he is by starting off talking about America’s debt. Isn’t most of America’s debt owed to itself and like 10% is owed to China which comes in second. A countries dept doesn’t function the same as a households. Bloody hell, America prints its own frickin money ffs. The only major issue is inflation. The countries debt is a political hacky sack which republicans like to pull out when convenient. He’s just another sheep. 

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@Double_R
until you endanger the health and safety of others and/or the general public.
Refusing a vacciene or a mask doesn't make vaccinated people significently less safe.  You can make this argument to implement a muslim ban.  "We need to ban muslims for the health and safety of others and/or the general public from terrorist attacks since terrorist attacks make us unsafe".  You can argue that it is morally justified to ban gay sex out of a desire to make people safe from HIV.  Anyone who advocates for this is somehow committing "hate speech" to gay people.  Anyone who advocates for a muslim ban (even if it saves lives) is somehow spewing hate speech towards muslims.  If these examples are hate speech, then wanting to mandate vaccienes is hate speech towards those who are unvaccinated.  If this is your definition of hate speech, then it ought to be legal(along with hating anybody you want for any reason you want).  People should be free to decide their own risk tolerance, whether that is having sex with someone with HIV, or being unvaccinated.

Libetarians want freedom to do (controversial things) to make people free and to keep the government small.  Authoritarians want freedom from (controversial things) to make people safe and they prefer a big government to keep people safe.  This is true for abortion, healthcare options, gun rights, vaccine mandates, war, foreign aid, weed, homosexuality, and others.

Liberals want to implement authoritarian stances on vaccienes out of a desire to make everyone safe.

Conservatives want to implement authoritarian stances on immigration out of a desire to make everyone safe.

One who is principled advocates for freedom from vaccienes to immigration and any other freedom that is either victimless or an activity where the ratio of (the quantity of people that benefit to the amount of harm generated) is extremely high. 

This is why it is acceptable to speed even though some people die as a result.  The freedom of 250 million drivers to speed for over an hour every day for 350 days a year is a legitimate trade off to the 30,000 people that die from car accidents.  If you disagree, then don't speed.