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@whiteflame
How do you like Professor Oak as a character claim for an ENABLER?
Pokémon Indigo League Mafia - DP 1
Posts
Total:
534
Ash could also be a Mafia ROLEBLOCKER for all we know. If bron is being forthright here and Ash is TOWN, then he is by far the number one target for NK, right now.
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@ILikePie5
I’d have to disagree. A policy lynch on Disc assuming no alternatives is the best position here. Mods do give Miller as a fake claim. Don’t know if Poly would but better safe than sorry. His role has no use to us anyways + it helps POE and doesn’t create a headache at MYLO or LYLO like Wylted said.
In the unlikely event that there is absolutely no one else that strikes up suspicion (and from the looks of things, there are others), I agree that there's valid reason to select him over a bunch of unknowns. That doesn't so much make him the policy lynch as just recognition that his role is both not helpful to town and a potential fake claim.
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@Wylted
It being a policy lynch, is only partially because nobody should SOP claim it. It should be an SOP lynch on dp1 though. Miller claims in later DPs should only be done when aided by behavior analysis.
Again, this seems like more of a disagreement with the standard than with Disc's choice to claim. I haven't been the Miller before and thus I've never gotten the opportunity to decide for myself, but Disc is just following the standard here. I don't think that necessitates an SOP lynch.
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@ILikePie5
Help me pressure Earth
Unvote
VTL Earth
Frankly, given how his lack of reading comprehension has hurt us in past games, I'm just hoping that this doesn't result in him backtracking again.
Official Vote Count
drlebronski (1/6) - oromagi
Discipulus_didicit (1/6) - Wylted
Earth (2/6) - ILikePie5, whiteflame
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@oromagi
OK, thanks.Let's note that this is unusual.An Enabler is linked to a specific role (such as Doctor), not types of role (such as protective); the Normal version of an Enabler is self-aware (and knows which role they enable). When the Enabler dies, all players lose the role that they are linked to, e.g. the death of a Doctor Enabler will cause every Doctor in the game to become useless.Essentially, an enabler is charged with the same level of self-protection as the ROLE he is linked to. How is a player supposed to know how to play his role without knowing the role he's linked to?I call this claim rather suspect and worthy of some kind of confirming investigation.
Oro, I think one of your weaknesses in mafia is that you tend to expect every role to go by the book exactly, according to some definitition of a role you read and are familiar with. Where generally speaking, several sites view some roles differently than others do, or some roles have a similar name but function completely diffrently than others do. Or some mods just design the functionality of their role differently based on what they think is balanced.
Now that's not to say that you can't be critical of claims that don't fit, I am mostly saying this to say that suspicion on roles should be supplemented by context of either sketchy behavior or circumstances surrounding how the individual claimed.
All of this isn't to say that I believe his claim 100% or anything like that, but it irks me to see people being suspected on claim alone, or an IWWTT statement alone, etc, etc, when time and time again we see mods not following some strict formula like that. You are an amazing debater, you usually source well, and like to follow facts straight through, so I can see how you would carry a debaters mentality to mafia, but unfortunately while the two things share some parrallels, they are entirely a different animal. To be effective at debating doesn't equate to effectiveness at scum hunting.
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@oromagi
How do you like Professor Oak as a character claim for an ENABLER?
I’m of two minds about the claim. On the level of whether the role fits the character, it does. Professor Oak supplies Ash with his Pokédex, his Pikachu, and a lot of information and support throughout. That might indicate that the claim is real, but given the oddness of the Mewtwo claim, I’m not so sure that this fitting claim set makes that more likely.
On the level of how it works, this is very different from any Enabler I’ve seen before. I’ve only ever seen this done when an Enabler was tied to a role, which could affect multiple players. It’s odd to see it be character-specific, even if it is fitting that it’s these two characters. I was certain that Ash would be in this game with Professor Oak.
Ash could also be a Mafia ROLEBLOCKER for all we know. If bron is being forthright here and Ash is TOWN, then he is by far the number one target for NK, right now.
I suppose it’s possible. The Fairy Tail game that Supa put together a while back had the MC as scum, which I never would have guessed going in, though I’d be inclined against believing that here. And yeah, I agree that drlebronski has put a target on his back if he’s town. If it was anyone else, I’d say it’s sus that he full claimed after 3 votes, but I don’t know if that’s the case with him.
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@Earth
Please be sober. Please read your PM letter by letter and at least character claim please.
come on bro don't be a dick
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@ILikePie5
meant to tag pie not earth
I do not currently suspect any of the claims so far on merit of claim alone. I can see MewTwo as Miller, Oak as enabler, etc. I caught on to oro's claim, and it seems town as well, unless it was a fake claim. I am going to be on high alert for pie, wylted, whiteflame, and supa. I'd be suprised if none of them were scum, with maybe earth or evil genius being a secondary.
I think earth and evil genius should be participating more, but I don't know if I want there claims. I will say if people are pressuring earth for a claim we need to just mass claim at this point. Because this benefits mafia greatly to have 3 claims dp1, so if we are going to hurt town with POE, let's also hurt mafia with POE.
Anyone with me on this? That's my vote. We either stop pushing claims now, or we mass claim.
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@Lunatic
Oro, I think one of your weaknesses in mafia is that you tend to expect every role to go by the book exactly, according to some definitition of a role you read and are familiar with. Where generally speaking, several sites view some roles differently than others do, or some roles have a similar name but function completely diffrently than others do. Or some mods just design the functionality of their role differently based on what they think is balanced.
We've had this discussion before so you know my answer. The weakness is not mine but DART's. Yes, different sites define ROLES differently but all other sites (that I've seen) use one consistent definition per ROLE. DART's weakness is that any ROLE claim is potentially valid because Game Mods are not required to use one specific, limited, defined set of ROLES. When other sites play mafia, part of the fun is reasoning whether a ROLE claim matches the predefined rule set- a nonconforming claim is likely scum. Here, any role claim, no matter how non-conforming is potentially valid and a big aspect of gameplay totally lost. It's like suddenly claiming a pawn is a checker and hopping to the far side for kinging. Good games use a defined set of abilities for each game piece.
I strongly believe that there should be one list of potential roles (no matter how large) and one set of standard rules for DART mafia games and that we'll never attract a regular set of players until such basic standards are applied.
it irks me to see people being suspected on claim alone, or an IWWTT statement alone, etc, etc, when time and time again we see mods not following some strict formula like that.
And it irks me that Mods don't follow some basic standard that allows us to suspect players on claim alone or on WWT statement alone, as the game was originally designed and as everybody else seems to play on all other sites except ours, sites that attract more regular and enthusiastic players.
You are an amazing debater, you usually source well, and like to follow facts straight through, so
Don't get me hard before dinnertime, please.
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@oromagi
So you are promising to be inactive and promising not to scum hunt. Shouldn't that make you our number one SOP lynch?
Disc is most likely scum
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@Wylted
->@oromagiSo you are promising to be inactive and promising not to scum hunt. Shouldn't that make you our number one SOP lynch?Disc is most likely scum
So you say but still refuse to actually give any reasons. Saying is not doing and the longer you don't do, the more likely you are scum.
I'm not really considering Wylted's logic. I get what he's saying, but to challenge the way most people and the most optimal way of playing on this site is not the best decision
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@Earth
@Lunatic
Anyone with me on this? That's my vote. We either stop pushing claims now, or we mass claim.
I generally prefer to err on the side of overclaiming. I don't mind pressuring Earth for claim.
UNVOTE
VTL Earth
character claim first, then role claim conditionally
I can somewhat believe drlebronski's claim, but I also find it hard to believe as well. I know that Enabler was used in one of the mafia games we played and it could be possible that scum gave it to him. I also think Ash is such a broad character to claim and the fact he is the MC means drlebronski could be trying to keep himself alive because Ash will most likely be some form of a power role
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@oromagi
OK, thanks.Let's note that this is unusual.An Enabler is linked to a specific role (such as Doctor), not types of role (such as protective); the Normal version of an Enabler is self-aware (and knows which role they enable). When the Enabler dies, all players lose the role that they are linked to, e.g. the death of a Doctor Enabler will cause every Doctor in the game to become useless.Essentially, an enabler is charged with the same level of self-protection as the ROLE he is linked to. How is a player supposed to know how to play his role without knowing the role he's linked to?I call this claim rather suspect and worthy of some kind of confirming investigation.
+1
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@Lunatic
I am going to be on high alert for pie, wylted, whiteflame, and supa.
You are on high alert of me with only 2 posts at the time of posting? Interesting read but fair enough to say the least
Well , I’m very new to the game and I’m learning about everything now. I’m curious to know and researching on some other characters.. What’s an ENABLER? Seen that being thrown out quite a few times
Right now my lean scum in drlebronski with an FOS on Lunatic at the moment.
Everyone is null with a slight town lean on Wylted. While I disagree with Wylted's logic, Wylted as town is not fond of the Miller role and goes on the same shpeel as before.
oromagi
Evilgenius
SupaDudz
Wylted
SCUM
LAZY VC
drlebronski (1/6) - oromagi
Discipulus_didicit (1/6) - Wylted
Earth (2/6) - ILikePie5, whiteflame
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@oromagi
I get what you are saying, and I think there is merit to games that follow a specific structure. The way those games are played on mafiascum for example are completely different as well. The reason those games work is because they aren't filled with as many power roles as DART/DDO games generally are. Thats a bad habit this site has inherited, reliance on roles. There's hardly any real behavioral analysis that goes into these games, which annoys me as well. Only reason I play here is because it's the only mafia website my work will let me play on, the rest are restricted.
But I think the fundamental issue lies with over-reliance on role confirmation. I feel like it's rare to see well balanced games these days, either mafia crushes the town because they can POE out all the roles or were given over powered roles, or town POE's the mafia based on roles. I feel like a lot of these games are just solved via POE because of role craziness and everyone being able to prove their roles. I don't think it's an issue that there isn't a strict standard with mafia roles, because changing mechanics of roles encourages players to not vote one dimensionally, and think outside the box, focus on behavior etc.
TL;DR I agree with you that the way we play mafia here sucks, but not for the same reason. At the end of the day though we have to adapt to the way it is played if we are still to play here, and attaching strict judgements to how roles should work according to what we know of them has bitten us in the ass too much in the past to be a valuable way to play.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
come on bro don't be a dick
Lunatic is right. We need to show respect to each other or risk alienating the constant state of fresh blood needed to keep the game alive.
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@Vader
You are on high alert of me with only 2 posts at the time of posting? Interesting read but fair enough to say the least
This reads kind of defensive, ya know. Also you should recount my posts, I had made several posts last night when the game first popped up. I am not an early morning mafia player, I always get on around 4pm MST.
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@Lunatic
Anyone with me on this? That's my vote. We either stop pushing claims now, or we mass claim.
I think we might catch scum here with a mass claim tbh. I still oppose it based on gut feeling.
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@Evilgenius
EG-
There's a link to a description of the ENABLER role in post #112. I try to remember to link a description for most claimed roles and characters. I like mafiascum because it usually gives some advice on how best to play the role.
That said, as we have been discussing, there's no specific description of any role that must be applied. There are a lot of conventional uses but TOWN gets screwed by unconventionally designed ROLES all the time. So, any site's ROLE description might be helpful for getting of sense of the role, but is not at all gospel and sometimes totally irrelevant.
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@Wylted
If one more person claims I am full enforcing a mass character claim this day phase regardless. Whether people follow me or not, I have little control over. But I can at least make a pretty good argument for why we should.
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@Evilgenius
Well , I’m very new to the game and I’m learning about everything now. I’m curious to know and researching on some other characters.. What’s an ENABLER? Seen that being thrown out quite a few times
It will be confusing for a bit, but you'll get it if you stick it out. Seems you have the basics down from the card game you played
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@Lunatic
If one more person claims I am full enforcing a mass character claim this day phase regardless. Whether people follow me or not, I have little control over. But I can at least make a pretty good argument for why we should.
This Pokémon shit confuses me. I am always supportive of mass character claims in themes above my head