why should we assume supernatural looking things happen to atheists too?

Author: n8nrgmi

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#1
n8nrgmi
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i assume most atheists will ask where is the evidence of the supernatural. they always do. then i post my links. (such as a damaged retina that healed itself, or a skin scale disease that just went away) then they move the goal post and say that those things happen to them too. but this thread is to cast light on that foolish assumption. why should we assume that?

we theists can show things that look like supernatural healing. healing that happens despite the science saying it's impossible. atheists can't show things that look supernatural happening to them. why is that? atheists assume the same level of things happen to them... but the examples are just never reported. for me, if someone prays and then something supernatural looking occurs, i see no reason to assume similar things happen to atheists too. the burden of proof is on the atheist, if they claim those things happen to them too. 

it's plausible for an atheist to just claim that their assumption is that those supernatural things happen to their group too. if that's the case, they dont necessarily have a burden of proof. but that's a stance with no balls to it. why not try arguing your position as true? i guess we know why they dont... they can't prove their case if they did.

we have people getting miraculously healed right before our eyes. it's plain evidence. yet, as always, atheists dont like plain evidence. atheists just have a deep seated need to not believe, that's all there is to it. 





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#2
n8nrgmi
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the catholic church has a whole system designed to find impossible cures happening to people. just in case anyone wants more examples. 
#3
949havoc
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@n8nrgmi
What makes such healing supernatural? Why can't it pure nature we do not yet understand? You think we always understood how gravity really operates? Nope, we didn't, That did not make that force supernatural, it just meant we didn't know shit about it.
#4
zedvictor4
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@n8nrgmi
What is a supernatural looking thing?

I must admit that I've never seen one.

Does it have three heads?


Nonetheless, people either heal or not, and some people are frauds.

And frauds are easily healed if they want to be.
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#5
n8nrgmi
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@949havoc
u just ignored the point of the thread. why dont the same level of healings that look supernatural, that happen to theists... also happen to atheists? or, why should we assume that they do, if they just are never reported? 
#6
oromagi
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@n8nrgmi
In fact, atheists generally enjoy better health than members of any religion.

Results indicate better physical health outcomes for atheists compared to other secular individuals and members of some religious traditions. Atheists also reported significantly lower levels of psychiatric symptoms (anxiety, paranoia, obsession, and compulsion) compared to both other seculars and members of most religious traditions.
I think one of the reason for this may be that attributing results (bad or good) to the supernatural ends the conversation. The supernatural is by definition beyond our ability to understand and/or control, so we waste our time trying to understand the disease or reverse its progress.  If we instead assume that the thing is only hard to understand and control for lack of information, then we are motivated to understand better and such improved understandings eventually translate into better health outcomes.

I would not say that Atheists never report miracles, they just don't report them as miracles.  Rather, Atheists report miracles as mysteries and in so doing open up doors towards discovery that consistently disprove supernatural explanations given sufficient insight and understanding.

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FLRW
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@n8nrgmi
Here is a good example of a miracle for an atheist. The physicist, who died at the age of 76, wasn’t expected to see his 25th birthday, after being diagnosed with the incurable neurodegenerative condition ALS at age 21. Though Hawking beat the odds for more than five decades, the scientist told the Guardian in 2011 that death was never far from his mind.
“I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years,” Hawking said. “I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first.”
#8
SkepticalOne
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@n8nrgmi
but the examples are just never reported. for me, if someone prays and then something supernatural looking occurs, i see no reason to assume similar things happen to atheists too.
"Super natural looking"

I went to a magic show and saw what appeared to be magic...but it wasn't. Likewise, someone who sees something "supernatural looking" hasn't necessarily seen the supernatural. That being said, it shouldn't come as any surprise super natural looking stuff can happen to atheists too.
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#9
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@SkepticalOne
u r missing the point. i can show you an example of someone's retina being healed. retinas dont just heal themselves. you confuse improbable with impossible. a retina healing itself looks impossible.  you cant show that level of proof.... you can't give a reason we should assume it happens to atheists at all, the point of the thread.
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#10
n8nrgmi
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atheists lack critical thinking. the issue of miracles and NDEs are proof enough of that. 
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@n8nrgmi
I meaaaan, this is a very assumptive position. Assuming supernatural things happen, assuming this is accepted as axiomatic by the community(theist or atheist), then yes. Atheists are on shaky ground. Using those assumptions. Rolling with those assumptions, is it not then also safe to say the opposite can then be true, that a religious person has no supernatural experience even when they should?  I can also say with certainty that I have conversed with men and women who had miraculous things happen to them yet are still not religious. It is comparable to them how ancient greeks decided that gods controlled lightning because they did not yet have another explanation at the time. Using "supernatural" things as evidence of God is really quite difficult and ultimately even in most scripture ineffective. The entire premise of Satan's rebellion is that he had the perfect life with a perfect father and chose to leave it as well as a third of heaven. To put that in simple words, he LITERALLY was face to face with the God of creation and said suck it along with lots of other brothers and sisters. The children of Israel were led around the desert eating mana from the sky, following a lightning cloud after Moses led them through the plagues and the Red Sea, yet they still made the golden calf and apostatized. The basis on religion has much more to do with personal choice than the supernatural. Sure, it can have an affect and be very influential to some. Using it as a goalpost to smack atheists with is a little silly and probably hurtful. Personally, I think if we experience something legitimately supernatural than we should treat it with some reverence and gratitude for the spiritual experience rather than as a proving point. Prove the point through the tenets of the belief and the spirit associated with it instead.
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@oromagi
In fact, atheists generally enjoy better health than members of any religion.
Last I checked, this study lacked specificity. It was noted by the researchers that this study did not differentiate between atheists and simply those non-secular as well as it lumped together anyone of any belief as one category. While still possibly true, in contrast its then equally fair to source the studies saying that those of religious standing are normally happier than those who are not.

I think one of the reason for this may be that attributing results (bad or good) to the supernatural ends the conversation. The supernatural is by definition beyond our ability to understand and/or control, so we waste our time trying to understand the disease or reverse its progress.  If we instead assume that the thing is only hard to understand and control for lack of information, then we are motivated to understand better and such improved understandings eventually translate into better health outcomes.

I would not say that Atheists never report miracles, they just don't report them as miracles.  Rather, Atheists report miracles as mysteries and in so doing open up doors towards discovery that consistently disprove supernatural explanations given sufficient insight and understanding.
This ^^^ Very true.
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-->@oromagi
In fact, atheists generally enjoy better health than members of any religion.
Last I checked, this study lacked specificity. It was noted by the researchers that this study did not differentiate between atheists and simply those non-secular as well as it lumped together anyone of any belief as one category. While still possibly true, in contrast its then equally fair to source the studies saying that those of religious standing are normally happier than those who are not.
I agree that the study lacked specificity, although I looked at abstracts from 4 studies before making the claim.  I just preferred this study's summary. But nobody just put a religion up against Atheism.

As for specifics, I would like to see a comparison between LDS, 7th Day Adventists, Jews (all famously healthier than GenPop) and Atheists.
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@oromagi
I agree, in particular I'd like to see 7DA's. As someone who is LDS, I personally live healthier than most but they take it a good deal further. I'd be real curious to see the logistics on it. It is worth noting though that enough atheists did live healthier than some at least. Makes me want to see the actual data and see where it really stacks up. Lots of interesting psychological stuffs to see there. 
#15
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@n8nrgmi
retinas dont just heal themselves.
You equate retinas being healed without treatment as supernatural because you wrongly assume retinas cannot heal without treatment.


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#16
n8nrgmi
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@SkepticalOne
it's considered a fact of science that damaged retinas to the point of blindness cannot be repaired. 
#17
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@n8nrgmi
it's considered a fact of science that damaged retinas to the point of blindness cannot be repaired. 
Ahh, so now its not just damaged retinas, but retinas damaged to the point of blindness. Moving the goalposts....

Without specifics its difficult to address your example, but I do have questions. Was the damaged retina properly diagnosed? Was there a surgery before the 'miracle'? I suspect a misdiagnosis, self-diagnosis (no diagnosis) and/or a surgery. I look forward to more info from you.
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@n8nrgmi
atheists lack critical thinking
I think Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking,Richard Feynman,Niels Bohr,Louis de Broglie,Francis Crick,Steven Weinberg,and  Erwin Schrodinger would disagree with you.
#19
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@n8nrgmi
i can show you an example of someone's retina being healed. retinas dont just heal themselves.
Question: How do we know retinas don’t heal themselves?

Answer: Observation. We’ve never observed a damaged retina healing itself, therefore we conclude that this doesn’t happen.

Question: So what would change our position?

Answer: An example of a retina healing itself.

Ok, so here’s an example of a retina healing itself.

But wait, retinas don’t heal themselves, therefore it must be supernatural.

Do you see the problem here?
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@n8nrgmi
why dont the same level of healings that look supernatural, that happen to theists... also happen to atheists??
Please point me to the study that shows they don’t.
#21
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The answer to the OP question is easy: you shouldn't assume supernatural things happen to anyone, and instead you should ask for substantiation of supernatural claims. How'd I do?
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#22
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@Double_R
you say a retina healing itself is proof that retina must be able to heal themselves. okay, that's plausible. but why can't atheists show similar inexplicable healing that has causes unknown to science? i know you asked me for studies that say that atheists dont get similar healings. but it doesn't work that way. you can't ask me to disprove a negative. if you had balls to your position, you would claim that atheists do receive inexplicable healings with unknown causes. but if you did that, you would have to show me some examples, the burden would be yours, and you would fail horribly. either you have no balls cause you dont want to make the claim, or you will fail horribly in proving your claim. either way you look bad. you still haven't answered why we should just assume inexplicable healings that are unknown to science happen to athests the same as theists. i dont think it's smart or wise or scientifiic to just take your word for it. 
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#23
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i'm looking for examples of atheists being healed with causes unknown to science. and it should go without saying, that if a healing becomes standard in science as possible, then that doesn't count. i'm looking for healings that are unheard of, and doesn't become part of science. we know these things happen to theists... we have no reason to think and no evidence to think it happens to atheists. this paragraph should go without saying, but given atheists lack common sense, you have t spell it all out to them. they deny all terms and conditions, and fight tooth and nail to ever make sense. 
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@n8nrgmi
you say a retina healing itself is proof that retina must be able to heal themselves.
I’m not saying a retina healing itself is proof that a retina can heal itself, I am saying that the observation of a retina healing itself cannot be used as evidence of anything other than a retina being able to heal itself.

The idea of science is that we begin with observations and attempt to tie those observations into a model that best explains reality. What you’re doing with your retna example is taking an observation and deeming it impossible at the outset so that you can attribute it to a cause that has never been demonstrated to exist. That’s not how science works because that’s not how logic and reason works.

but why can't atheists show similar inexplicable healing that has causes unknown to science? i know you asked me for studies that say that atheists dont get similar healings. but it doesn't work that way. you can't ask me to disprove a negative.
I’m not asking you to disprove a negative, I’m asking you to substantiate the premise of your own argument. This entire thread is based on the idea that theists experience more “supernatural looking things” than atheists. Do you have any evidence of this?

Atheists generally do not come up with similar examples because first of all that’s not our burden, and second atheists do not catalog inexplicable occurrences the way theists do. That’s far better explained by confirmation bias than the supernatural, which is why I asked you for studies.

you still haven't answered why we should just assume inexplicable healings that are unknown to science happen to athests the same as theists
Because that’s the default position. There is no evidence to suggest that our beliefs or desires have any impact on the physics of the universe, therefore we  default to the laws of probability.
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@n8nrgmi
i'm looking for healings that are unheard of, and doesn't become part of science
Then you don’t understand the first thing about science. As I explained, science begins with  observations, so no observation can be dismissed as being outside of it.

Perhaps this thread would be more productive if you would define the supernatural. Most people agree that a general precondition of a supernatural occurrence would involve the suspension of the laws of physics. But the laws of physics are, again, nothing more than the conclusions of our observations.

So even if there were a force out there that could violate the laws of physics, then presumably that force would operate in accordance with some kind of rules to its capabilities and existence. So in theory, those rules could be studied, established, and then would be incorporated into our understanding of the natural world. In other words, once we understand the supernatural it just becomes part of the natural, so when we’re talking about the supernatural all we’re really talking about is that which is unknown to us.

This is where this thread becomes irrational. After all you’re asserting the supernatural based on inexplicable occurrences. But if you don’t understand something then that’s where it stops. “I can’t explain X” cannot be used as evidence for the cause of X, otherwise what you’re saying is “I cannot explain X, therefore I can explain X” - an obvious logical contradiction.

So if you want to make a case for the supernatural, you have to begin by establishing what the supernatural is. Only then could the supernatural become even a candidate explanation for the observations you are presenting.
#26
Polytheist-Witch
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Supernatural is a false term. If something occurs in nature and it follows natural law therefore it's natural. People can recognize it comes from some higher source or from within themselves. Most atheists don't believe in either thing. They just believe we're randomly born, randomly live and randomly die. 
#27
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@Polytheist-Witch
 If something occurs in nature and it follows natural law therefore it's natural. 

How would you describe walking on water, Witch? 
#28
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@Stephen
Who have you seen walking on water please show me the picture I'd love to know.
#29
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@Polytheist-Witch
Who have you seen walking on water please show me the picture I'd love to know.

That was not the question. But here is a picture

#30
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@Stephen
So what you're saying is I have to believe Jesus walked on water cuz someone wrote it down in a book called The Bible. And I'm the mentally ill one.