Abraham Was Backward

Author: Stephen

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#1
Stephen
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God made a promise to Abraham that he would make of him a "great nation".
 
And I Will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Genesis 12: 2
 
A promise, nice. All well and good. 
 
It was prophesied to the patriarch Abraham that he would have a son and that his name should be Isaac. When Abraham became one hundred years old, this son was born to him by his first wife Sarah. Though this was Abraham's second son it was Sarah's first and only child.
So Sarah is the Matriarch 1st and official wife.
 
Then this happens.
 
Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain will show you.” Genesis 22
 
Can anyone see the problem with this stupid story and how stupid and backward Abraham must have been?
 
The Question here is glaringly obvious and, as is usual with these biblical stories,it is also problematic for the devout theist.
 
Besides the barbarity of the request Abraham in all his lacking of any type of wisdom, didn’t stop to think never mind ask;

Lord, how are you going to make me a great nation when you have demanded that I kill my son, my only son?

 And although the lord himself says that Isaac is Abraham's ONLY son, he isn't, and  this is absolute claptrap to the casual reader unless one understands the bibles strict order of ascendency.

 

We know this god to be a cruel god from the story of Job where this god for a bet, decided to kill Jobs family and livestock and servants and tore down his house, to prove Job's loyalty.
 
But seriously, Would you sacrifice your only child if god asked you to?
#2
Mopac
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Maharba
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Stephen
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@Mopac
 So again Mopac. You are far too embarrassed to even adress this silly story about  the Patriarch Abraham. 

Are you not going to explain to us all why this story again makes no sense and just paints Abraham in a very dim and poor light?

Are you not going to explain to us all why god calls Isaac Abraham's "only son" when it is common knowledge to anyone who has read the scripture that Abraham has ten, yes TEN!!!! sons?  That will be 9 other sons. 

Are you not going to explain to us all why Abraham, who it is said was made in the image of god didn't even question to himself the thorny problem of the promise god himself had made to him?

Come on now, surely someone who gives the impression to be learned on these matters should be able to explain away this anomaly?
#4
Castin
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@Stephen
God could give Abraham many sons after Isaac, so I don't think there's a whole lot of conflict between "kill your son" and "I will give you a great nation". Abraham worshiped a God he believed to be almighty, so it seems natural to me that he didn't think the loss of one child would confound God's power to make his will manifest.

Obviously it's one of the more horrifying stories of the Bible, taken at face value. This was a period in tribal history where child sacrifices were not unheard of. Shudder.

Btw, did you hear about that archaeological site they found in Peru containing the bones of more than 140 sacrificed children? Largest mass child sacrifice in history, apparently. Humans suck.

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As Castin understated, child sacrifices were a feature of ancient societies.   The Hebrew/Jews seem to have not practiced child sacrifice, but their close neighbours such as the Canaanites, Pheonicians and Moabites certainly did - attested by archaeological and extra biblical sources.

i think episdes like this one can serve multiple functions, both narratively and symbolically.   My guess is that it is a 'just so' story explaning the root of the Hebrews not following their neighbours religious practice of child  sacrifice and using animal sacrifice instead.

other theories are available.









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#6
Stephen
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@keithprosser
As usual Keith, you have skirted the issue of the main content and point of the thread.


This was the point why don't you try addressing them:

Are you not going to explain to us all why god calls Isaac Abraham's "only son" when it is common knowledge to anyone who has read the scripture that Abraham has ten, yes TEN!!!! sons?  That will be 9 other sons. 

Are you not going to explain to us all why Abraham, who it is said was made in the image of god didn't even question to himself the thorny problem of the promise god himself had made to him?

So far no one has been able to offer an explanation to this ambiguous tale.


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Stephen
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@Castin
God could give Abraham many sons after Isaac, so I don't think there's a whole lot of conflict between "kill your son" and "I will give you a great nation".

 You couldn't be more wrong. and you have ignored the fact that god refers to Issac as Abraham's ONLY SON.  And unless you understand the matriarchal and patriarchal system and culture from  which Abram/ Abraham came from in Ancient Mesopotamia, you don't have a cat in hells chance of explaining this away.
That is why I am waiting for the resident theists to step in and explain it all for us. so far, one - Mopac - has failed and only offered a single Arabic word as some kind of explanation to this complicated tale. 

Here is a clue for the absolute clueless.

Isaac prayed for her and she conceived. Rebekah gave birth to twin boys, Esau and Jacob. Isaac was 60 years old when his two sons were born. Isaac favored Esau, and Rebekah favored Jacob.
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@Stephen
About 2500 years ago the jewish scribe exiled in Babylon writing what would become genesis could have written anything at all.  What he did in fact write is the story of Abraham and Isaac that we can read today.   Why did he write what he did and not some other version, maybe where isaac is sacrificed?   Abraham and Isaac never existed and the episode never happened - the puzzle I'm interested in is why the text is as it is.  
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This Abraham bloke is without a doubt brilliant dude. 
A real thinker of sorts. 
Ruthless, butttttttt.  Take em for a ride. 
He wants to get a little GROUP going. Gain a gathering. 
To name a few others that gets a group started. 
Jesus. 
Ye old sea dog L Ron hub. 
Joseph smith
That David ker esh what ever his name. maggot.

THEY ALL GOT A GROUP GOING.  
And it's alllllll about GETTING A GROUP GOING.

Getting a religious group going is like 189 and a half Ponzi schemes. 
It's ummmmmm brilliant. 
And it appears to me that Abraham plays a main part in the new and the now HOT system, GREATTTT FORMULA offff.

A God. 
A Human God.
A Book.
A Clubhouse. ( a building shaped like no other ) ( a odd shaped roof ) 
 
Group building block materials. 

Three cheers for the main man Abraham.  
Hip
Hip
Hip



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@Stephen
That is why I am waiting for the resident theists to step in and explain it all for us. so far, one - Mopac - has failed and only offered a single Arabic word as some kind of explanation to this complicated tale

Lol

Literally Abraham backwards.


The problem here is that you are only interested in subverting minds. 
So is the story stupid or is the one calling the story stupid?

You already know what I think about that.


Still waiting for you to make a topic about how Jesus was a space alien, and the virgin Mary was really a time traveling robot built by the cia to facilitate the delivery of Jesus.




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@Mopac
Your strawmen aren't even boys.
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@disgusted
Hey, I'm at least putting in as much effort as you usually do.
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#13
Stephen
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@Mopac

Literally Abraham backwards.



The fact that Abraham couldn't workout  for himself that when his god ordered him to kill his"only" son, then this would mean that there wouldn't  be any "great nation"  made of him and in turn this would mean that his god would have  or would have been, breaking his godly promise. So yes Abraham Was backward.

This is far too deep for you to even consider simply because you are a fawning religious sycophant who simply cannot face stone cold facts. 

If you had read my post on this thread closely , I have explained exactly what and why things happened this way. But you are unable to see it because of you religious bias.

AND: If  my opinion of you is wrong , Mopac , then simply address the OP and put me right. 

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Stephen
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@Mopac

 I'm at least putting in as much effort as you usually do.


You are, and I sincerely appreciate that you do.

You will notice though that no one yet has explained away the obvious anomaly concerning god, his promise, and his reference to Issac being Abraham's  only son when we know he had 9 others.

Keith Prosser has offered his usual conjecture but doesn't believe any of the bible anyway and still managed to ignore the pertinent points I have raised. He chose instead to give us his version of Babylonian history and concentrated instead on the "sacrifice" that didn't happen.

The resident theists have completely ignored the pertinent point of the fact that Abraham couldn't work out  for himself that when his god ordered him to kill his "only" son, then this would mean that there wouldn't  be any great nation "made of him" and in turn this would mean that his god would have  or would have been breaking his godly promise. So yes Abraham was backward.

Maybe the question is too difficult or mores the case to inconveinient for the thesists to face. It is also likely that the theist have never even considered these facts because they have been steered away from such anomalous and awkward verses since childhood while being steered towards the fluffy verses of the New Testament.

When I was at school we hardly ever spoke of anything to do with the Old Testament, except the few "miracles" . Understandable considering that the OT in truth had nothing to do with Christianity except that the NT at times tries desperately to tie in the Old with the New via "prophecies"

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Stephen
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@keithprosser
Why did he write what he did and not some other version, maybe where isaac is sacrificed?  
 
 I don’t know, start a thread of your own to ask your own questions. Meanwhile, while you have shown no interest in addressing the questions in the op you have offered once more your own conjecture offering your usual “maybe it never happened”   - so we will never know - mantra.
 
I am not interested in your conjecture as someone who, by your own admission, is a fully blown atheist and doesn’t believe anything “written thousands of years ago”. So to offer us your  ifs, buts’ and “maybes” I find slightly hypocritical.

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@Stephen
Why bother correcting you on anything? You think the writers of these scriptures were liars, mentally deficient, or trying to cover up something.

As long as you have this approach, it is a waste of time. The only thing debating you serves isnto equip you to better deceive people.

Addressing your issues doesn't really address your issue.

So what? If you don't respect the subject matter, why not leave it alone and mind your own business?

#17
Mopac
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For thousands of years the church has been going over these scriptures. The scriptures have been mocked by unbelievers for just as long.


Yet the church is still here, and we know our God is The Truth. How would we know that if scripture was what you think it is?


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#18
Stephen
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@Mopac
For thousands of years the church has been going over these scriptures.

Yes, I bet they have. But you haven't have you?
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#19
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Why bother correcting you on anything?

No surprises there then.. I said you wouldn't because you couldn't.  But I have explained it, you sycophantic clown. Go back and read posts 1 & 7.

Still waiting for you to make a topic about how Jesus was a space alien, 

Well the gods do reside above, in the heavens, space, don't they, Mopac? And it is written often  that the  god/s was often "coming down". Genesis 11:5 John 6:38 Exodus 19:11 Samuel 2:22:10 and many, many more verses professing that the Lord your god " came down"

Where was he "coming down" from? Mopac 

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@Stephen

Mopac : Still waiting for you to make a topic about how Jesus was a space alien,

Stephen : Well the gods do reside above, in the heavens, space, don't they, Mopac? And it is written often  that the  god/s was often "coming down". Genesis 11:5 John 6:38 Exodus 19:11 Samuel 2:22:10 and many, many more verses professing that the Lord your god " came down"

Where was he "coming down" from? Mopac




This goes to show you that when people don't want to believe The Truth, they will believe almost anything else.


"They received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."



We know our God is The Truth.

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#21
Stephen
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@Mopac
Now you Avoid a question about your own silly and stupid childish comment.
That, Mopac, is piss poor weak.
#22
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@Stephen
When I was at school we hardly ever spoke of anything to do with the Old Testament, except the few "miracles" . Understandable considering that the OT in truth had nothing to do with Christianity except that the NT at times tries desperately to tie in the Old with the New via "prophecies"

I've long thought so, and so did marcion of sinope 2000 years ago.

The problem I have with your threads is that its not clear if you are saying a) a real person called abraham was backward, or b) the character in a story is backward or c) whoever wrote the story must be backward.

My assumptionsare  that Abraham and isaac never existed - they are characters in a story, like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. The writers of genesis invented the episode to make a point about child sacrifice.   

What are your assumptions?







#23
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@keithprosser
His assumption is "Anything but the truth"

And this can easily be discerned by observing him for a length of time.


Considering such a large chunk of the world's population claims to be descended from Abraham, I think it would be silly to just poo poo him away as a made up character. It seems more likely to me that he really did exist, because the Arabs even before Islam were called Ishmaelites, named after their common descendant Ishmael, the first son of Abraham. Also, the Jews who take genealogy very seriously have for thousands of years claimed to be descended from Isaac, the very son who was not actually sacrificed.

Even if you don't believe the story is accurate, it seems perfectly reasonable to believe that Abraham was a real person. 

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@Stephen
I love you anyway, and I sincerely hope you come to repentance and acknowledgment of The Truth.

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#25
Stephen
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Even if you don't believe the story is accurate, it seems perfectly reasonable to believe that Abraham was a real person. 
I agree. I believe most, if not all of the OT characters existed. I have never found a single reason not to believe they didn't exist.

But this is not my point of the thread IS IT, YOU CLOWN!! So either address my points about Abraham's stupidity and lack of power of deduction or simply leave the thread. You haven't  even attempted to address my questions on your own childish comments.
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Stephen
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@keithprosser
The problem I have with your threads is that its not clear if you are saying a) a real person called abraham was backward, or b) the character in a story is backward or c) whoever wrote the story must be backward.

It shouldn't matter either way. But that said why didn't you simply ask.

My assumptions are  that Abraham and isaac never existed - they are characters in a story, like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. The writers of genesis invented the episode to make a point about child sacrifice. 

Again you are concentrating on the sacrifice. Start your own that thread on it if your that engrossed and obsessed by that part of the tale. 

My point, my whole point of the thread , the point you keep avoiding is the promise  made to Abraham   that couldn't possibly be fulfilled if he had killed his NOT only son  and that  Abraham was too dim  work this out for himself. 

#27
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@Mopac
Even if you don't believe the story is accurate, it seems perfectly reasonable to believe that Abraham was a real person. 
But how much slack do we allow?   Suppose that there was a man who's real-life story matched about 50% of what in the bible - does that make the bilical Abraham a real prson or only based on a real person?   Obviously there is no real answer.

but in this particular case it doesn't really matter because i think the binding of isaac episode was written down as an explanation of the Hebrews ue of animal -but not child - sacrifice.

The writers of Genesis weren't as worried by the continuity and consistency issues that vex Stephen so... possibly simply because parchment scrolls don't support full text search and replace or cut-and-paste nearly as well a decent wp!
#28
ethang5
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Would you sacrifice your only child if god asked you to?
Of course. God sacrificed His only Son for me. And His son was Holy.

Castin, an atheist, has already answered you and shown the facts in your reasoning.

is the promise  made to Abraham   that couldn't possibly be fulfilled
Faulty thinking. God still could have fulfilled the promise, and Abraham would have believed that.

if he had killed his NOT only son  and that  Abraham was too dim  work this out for himself.
God did not ask Abraham to kill his son, God asked him to offer his son. Again you have assumed what is not in the script.

Abraham's other sons were not part of the promise as the promise specified Sarah.

So we see that the one too dim to figure it out is you. Do you ever tire of looking like an idiot?
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#29
Stephen
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God did not ask Abraham to kill his son, God asked him to offer his son.

You really love being smacked with your own stick  don't you? here>>>


Genesis 22. 2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
 
 What was expected to do then, burn him to death without hurting him. You clown
#30
disgusted
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@Mopac
About as reasonable as believing Harry Potter is a real person.