Reward: Does It Fly In The Face of Jesus' Own Teachings?

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The Sermon on the Mount is all about receiving one's reward for keeping all of Jesus' commands, yet doesn't this fly in the face of what else is commanded in the scriptures about doing and giving while expecting nothing in return?

And as I mentioned recently, to be  offering compensation for these things, rather than teaching that true morality only takes place when you want to do what you are doing, is educationally and developmentally debilitating.

The sermon on the mount on the other hand does not teach that we should do good things simply because it is the right thing to do.

Jesus offers these rewards:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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@Stephen
Well actually the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes in particular is not about how to get rewards at all.    

It is not a prescription for people do - it is a description of what people already are and already have.  

The fact that you cannot see this - is well, just another example of your inability to understand language. 

Yes, I have read v.12. It changes nothing I said.  I underlined above why this is the case.  


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@Tradesecret
Well actually the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes in particular is not about how to get rewards at all.    

OPINION!  And it is about receiving the reward of heaven, in heaven and on earth, you clown. You just don't know your bible.

Matthew 5:12 "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you".
Luke 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
And on and on and on it goes. In fact reward is mentioned over 70 times in the bible. So away with your cretinous assertions.  




It is not a prescription for people do - it is a description of what people already are and already have.  

OPINION! And nope. It is about doing and or becoming with the offer of reward if you do or become. You just don't know your bible.

And it fly's in the face of many other things  that Jesus is supposed to have also said concerning what is on offer.  You just don't know your bible.

And you have missed the point of this thread. The thread concerns freely offering for nothing in return. The sermon on the mount does not do this, it offers reward/s.


So simply leave. You are far too dense to engage in any type of conversation concerning that which you claim to be qualified to lecture others on.#20





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@Tradesecret
The fact is, that we interpret accordingly.

And the bible is and always was open to interpretation.


We cannot even prove if the sermon on the mount was delivered by anything other than a man, or if at all.

Though charismatic people and their ideology, have always been able to delude the gullible.




Stephen
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@Tradesecret
@zedvictor4
Though charismatic people and their ideology, have always been able to delude the gullible.


Then they had to be at least "charismatic" Vic lad, today it is degrees  that qualify one to preach it appears;

You may have forgotten his challenge to you personally>> 

Tradesecret wrote: Are you assuming that my qualifications obtained from a world class reputable university are not real?   Wow! that certainly is a huge assertion. Would you care to prove that a post graduate degree from Melbourne University is not a real qualification?
Every world class university in the world has the post grad degrees that I hold.  You calling it pseudo only reveals your atheistic worldview. You however don't even play in the real world. Do you leave your home - or do you spend all day playing on your computer?  DO you have a real job? Do you have trouble making friends? 


 #31

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@Stephen
You have an amazing power of recall.

Did I respond?


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@zedvictor4
You have an amazing power of recall.
Did I respond?

Not that I recall, 😉Vic.


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I'm not sure how living a good life and being decent to people being reward in its own right is something that's anti-christian or anti any spirituality.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm not sure how living a good life and being decent to people being reward in its own right is something that's anti-christian or anti any spirituality.

It isn't anti anything , witch. I am raising a valid point. And  the point is doing good and being good to others is better and truer when it  comes about freely and willingly when it doesn't have a motive or reward attached to it. The bible makes this clear in many places.  Yet here we have Jesus offering rewards of meeting god, a ticket to heaven and everlasting life, for doing so.

You must have missed my point , Witch:



My Op simply points out that to be  offering compensation for these things, rather than teaching that true morality only takes place when you want to do what you are doing, is educationally and developmentally debilitating.

The sermon on the mount on the other hand does not teach that we should do good things simply because it is the right thing to do.


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@Stephen
Actually Jesus is the only way to heaven is through him not through works so that point doesn't make any sense to me.
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@Polytheist-Witch
so that point doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you give freely without expecting anything in return, Witch? Or do you give in the hope or expectation that you will be rewarded?
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@Stephen
Rewarded by whom?
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@zedvictor4
The fact is, that we interpret accordingly.

And the bible is and always was open to interpretation.


We cannot even prove if the sermon on the mount was delivered by anything other than a man, or if at all.

Though charismatic people and their ideology, have always been able to delude the gullible.

Yes and no.  

People do interpret the bible differently.  Some start with the newspapers.  Some start with their own experiences.  Some start with their prejudices.  

Some however - academics and scholars - start with it the way they would start with any other book and try to understand firstly what the author is saying - by considering the time and culture it was written in - by considering the audience they were writing to - by considering the differences in cultures between both of these things - and then draw a conclusion.  This is why academics and scholars - tend to draw similar conclusions - and continually do so - because the study of language and interpretation is a scientific methodology.   But you say - why the different interpretations then? Aha - because like anyone who has ever studied science will tell you, when new information arises, it changes the variables.  And when the variables change, so does the interpretation. 

Of course the new information has to be analysed - studied and tested and then it can be factored in. 

This is why people from all types of backgrounds, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, agnostic, atheist can have a certain amount of shared conclusions regarding the OT and even the NT.  

But others don't share that accepted framework for interpretation - they simply interpret it according to their own subjective methods. this happens a lot in christian circles. it happens a lot in atheistic circles.  It happens far too often.  So yes, you are correct, people interpret the bible subjectively in many many cases.  Yet, there is also an extensive amount of objective work done, using the scientific method.  

You can choose to go by the conspiracies of some - and you can choose to reject the science of interpretation as well.  That is a matter entirely for you.  Yet this does not mean that others have to agree with your interpretation that the bible is up for grabs interpretation wise.  There is a proper way of reading books and then there are non-proper ways. One improper way is to speculate that there is a secret message underlying the narrative of a book.  

Stephen uses a book  - the secret gospel of Mark - as the basis for his speculative interpretation. It is a book which has been demonstrated conclusively to be a fraud and fake.    Stephen does have some trouble discerning fake from true - he even considers the former President Trump to be the best prime minister England never had.  

Now not withstanding your views about Trump,  even an American - (And Americans are generally known as awful in respect of history and geography) would realize that Trump is not an Englishman.  I know he looks a lot like their current PM - the hair and all.  But really and seriously.  

I  also find it very interesting that you believe the lies that "we cannot prove" stuff about the bible.   We cannot prove anything more than 5 minutes ago.  It is credible historians and academics who have are confident - that Jesus lived.  There are some questions about what he did and whether he wrote anything at all.  Yet, the general consensus is that Jesus lived in the time frame the gospels indicate.  Are their dissenters? Of course. Just like there are dissenters in relation to the earth being a sphere.  You can be a dissenter - go and join the flat earth society.  The Flat Earth Society (tfes.org)

I am sure they would welcome your theory that - all interpretations of everything are up for grabs.  And that there is no scientific methodology widely understood to read and to interpret books and language. 
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@Polytheist-Witch
Rewarded by whom?

By those you have helped and given alms to and been good too?

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@Stephen
Well actually the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes in particular is not about how to get rewards at all.    

OPINION!  And it is about receiving the reward of heaven, in heaven and on earth, you clown. You just don't know your bible.

Matthew 5:12 "Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you".
Luke 6:23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
And on and on and on it goes. In fact reward is mentioned over 70 times in the bible. So away with your cretinous assertions.  

The Sermon on the Mount is describing the people are part of the kingdom of heaven. It is not describing what they must do to get to heaven.  Description not proscription.  I don't care whether you think it is opinion or not.  It is what it is.  And it is what Christians teach about it. v. 12 is not saying these things to get rewards - it is saying rejoice because great IS your reward.   It is a being verb. Not an action verb.  The same with Luke.  It is a verb stating what is - not how to do something. You need to go back to school and learn some grammar.  

It is not a prescription for people do - it is a description of what people already are and already have.  

OPINION! And nope. It is about doing and or becoming with the offer of reward if you do or become. You just don't know your bible.
Well I know it a whole lot more than you - and you have been bragging about how long you have been studying it for. You are a fraud and a liar. Because if you have been studying it for that long and you come to this ridiculous position then you are stupid.   The context is all about Jesus the king and his kingdom.  this is describing the subjects of his kingdom, 


And it fly's in the face of many other things  that Jesus is supposed to have also said concerning what is on offer.  You just don't know your bible.
Sorry - you are just about wrong on every level.  


And you have missed the point of this thread. The thread concerns freely offering for nothing in return. The sermon on the mount does not do this, it offers reward/s.
Well actually you have missed the point of the text you chose to use to throw sand at Christians.   You really have no idea and no credibility.  

You have no understanding and I will continue to remain and continue to call you out for your lies and your deceit and tomfoolery. You are an embarrassment to yourself. 



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@Tradesecret
Stephen uses a book  - the secret gospel of Mark - as the basis for his speculative interpretation.

OPINION! Prove it. 

I get more facts from the scriptures themselves  than the fairy-tale that you have wrapped around a very much flesh and bone human being and believe it to be ` gospel truth `.  I actually read the damn thing where as you, I have proven, have never read it for yourself. 


 considering the time and culture it was written in - by considering the audience they were writing to - by considering the differences in cultures between both of these things - and then draw a conclusion. 

All words that I have used myself and many times on this forum. You really are into plagiarising now aren't you Reverend "Tradey"




  It is credible historians and academics who have are confident - that Jesus lived.

 I have never claimed that Jesus didn't live , you utter clown. I do believe that Jesus lived and have said so umpteen times,( I can't prove it of course and neither can you) but I draw the line at literally walking on water and three day old stinking and rotting corpses walking the earth . 

Your own beliefs are simply faith based.  This is why you struggle with any serious debate or conversation about the bible and the Christ ; of which there were others before him. 

And lets us not forget, that YOU, by your own admission simply pass on what it is that you have been told to "pass on" don't you? 

HERE>> "I in most parts are merely passing on the teaching of what i have received.  I do not have an agenda. I really don't.    #20

You are so stupid  that you say to us that  you"do not have an agenda" when your "calling" says otherwise, or had you forgotten the Great Commission to go out into the world and preach the gospel?<<<<<<THIS is how thick you really are, Reverend "Tradey".  "Calling" my arse, you are no more than  a fly by night holy roller, and a very, poor one at that. If you are going to preach the book at least learn it first!  As I have done and still do.

Now stay with the thread instead of making me the focus of your own bias' or simply leave. 


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@Tradesecret
One doesn't need to be a "credible historian" or an "academic" to be able to accept that a charismatic person did probably exist at that time. Probably more than one, as the Earth was whole lot bigger than the Arabian Peninsular.

Though the name "Jesus" is undoubtedly an interpretation.

Proving that said character was the son of a supernatural god or the personification of a supernatural god is a whole different ball game, and beyond the capabilities of historians and academics.


Nonetheless, remove the storytellers and ardent theologians guff, and what one is left with is the basis of all other naive  Earth based GOD principles.

And that is:

We don't actually know, so we conclude that it must be magic.

And so here is our version, based upon a charismatic chap who claims to be the son of a god.

Who or what  the god is, we don't actually know....So you will just have to accept that one without proof (Believe).


And yep...Interpreting old books is what some people spend a lot of time doing, and there's nothing wrong with that.....Each to their own.


And what, at the end of the anthropological day is an Englishman?

Best ask an anthropologist to interpret that one.


And as I like to reiterate:

GOD principle sound, but not a floaty about bloke. 


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@Stephen
If you're giving something to someone with an expectation of something in return it's not a gift. So no I don't expect if I'm giving to someone or helping someone for them to do something for me in exchange other than to not take advantage of the fact that I help them.
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret

.
Stephen,

As we see once again in watching TRADESECRET flail around like fish out of water again upon your initial topic, whereas he/she/unknown is guilty of the following inspired by Jesus passages herewith:

" A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Proverbs 18:2)

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord." (Jeremiah 23:16)

And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (Mark 7:20-23)

Poor ol' Tradesecret NEVER, once again, NEVER gave biblical citations to their OPINIONS within my post herewith:


I am sure that you will agree relative to Tradesecret, where the equally dumbfounded of the JUDEO-Christian Bible FAUXLAW knew when to quit this forum and has left to save further embarrassment. Therefore, when do you think Tradesecret will follow suit?

.


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@Polytheist-Witch
If you're giving something to someone with an expectation of something in return it's not a gift. So no I don't expect if I'm giving to someone or helping someone for them to do something for me in exchange other than to not take advantage of the fact that I help them.

That's' the whole point. Expect nothing in return. 

My OP simply points out that to be  offering compensation for these things i.e. tickets to heaven, everlasting life and a one on one with god, rather than teaching that true morality only takes place when you want to do what you are doing, is educationally and developmentally debilitating.

The sermon on the mount on the other hand does not teach that we should do good things simply because it is the right thing to do.


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@BrotherDThomas
I am sure that you will agree relative to Tradesecret, where the equally dumbfounded of the JUDEO-Christian Bible FAUXLAW knew when to quit this forum and has left to save further embarrassment. Therefore, when do you think Tradesecret will follow suit?

Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecret is one in three persons so that is a difficult question to honestly answer, Brother. It would've been better had you asked which one of his three personas will leave first? Dimwit Tim has bee rather quiet of late.

Fauxlaw is probable trawling my threads for material for his new book. 

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@Stephen
You obviously have a high opinion of yourself. 

I have answered the questions put to me that deserve an answer.  If you can't understand, that is not my problem it is yours.  Perhaps if you spent more time in primary school understanding basics grammar you might have a clue. But now - not a chance,.  You stevie blunder know everything and are not capable of adding to your knowledge. 

Hence, why you cannot understand a simple answer to a question. 

Your prob - no one else's.
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You obviously have a high opinion of yourself. 

Well it could never be as low as the one I have you .


I have answered the questions put to me that deserve an answer.


No. What you have done is reply to the OP without answering the OP  . And you should know the difference with you ALSO being a fully trained lawyer with criminal clients to defend daily in a court of law.

 And this is beside the FACT that you have posed me no questions in the first place. You really are as dim as tim aren't you.
AND even if you had posed me any question relating to the OP, I am, -  as you often say - not obliged to respond or answer anything at all. 

Now leave the thread "Tradey" Tradesecrete. You have nothing to offer here in any your capacities as Lawyer, Pastor or Chaplain. 


This is you isn't it?

Tradesecrete wrote:
I am a lawyer.  There you go
But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.  #20


Off you go now. 

And get well soon .... all three of you🤣.
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@Tradesecret
Repost; addressee not stated

You obviously have a high opinion of yourself. 

Well it could never be as low as the one I have you .


I have answered the questions put to me that deserve an answer.


No. What you have done is reply to the OP without answering the OP  . And you should know the difference with you ALSO being a fully trained lawyer with criminal clients to defend daily in a court of law.

 And this is beside the FACT that you have posed me no questions in the first place. You really are as dim as tim aren't you.
AND even if you had posed me any question relating to the OP, I am, -  as you often say - not obliged to respond or answer anything at all. 

Now leave the thread "Tradey" Tradesecrete. You have nothing to offer here in any your capacities as Lawyer, Pastor or Chaplain. 


This is you isn't it?

Tradesecrete wrote:
I am a lawyer.  There you go
But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care.  And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation.  I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.  #20


Off you go now. 

And get well soon .... all three of you🤣.


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@Stephen
Works does not get you into heaven Jesus specifically said that that's why your statements false.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Works does not get you into heaven Jesus specifically said that that's why your statements false.

Ok lets see if you are correct.

Witch, Do you do people a good turn only to expect a good turn in return? 
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@Stephen
I'm sure some of them do but you can do all the good work you want when you're a Christian it does not get you into heaven. So to say I do good works cuz Jesus will let me into heaven is not correct Jesus said the only way into heaven is through me so you can do all the good work she want if you don't believe Jesus died for your sins technically you don't get into heaven. If we are going by the book. 
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I would say that while the Bible clearly does say in places that faith gets you into heaven and not actions, it just as clearly enforces a stick/carrot morality system in other places.

Matthew teaches that your works are the key to eternal reward:
    • “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ -- Matthew 25:31-36
    • Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
      “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good.
      If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. -- Matthew 19:16-19
    Paul taught that you are saved by faith alone and not works:
      • For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. -- Romans 3:28
      • For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. -- Ephesians 2:8-9
      Yet Paul also emphasized that your good deeds and actions will be central to eternal reward:

      • God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. -- Romans 2:6-7
      And of course James is big on works, questioning whether faith without good deeds can gain you salvation:

      • What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? -- James 2:14
      • You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. -- James 2:24
      • As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. -- James 2:26
      I could go on. Needless to say, all of this has given scholars, believers, and theologians plenty of mental exercise over the years.

      I think stick/carrot morality is a more primitive morality, personally -- the ideal is that we do good things because it's the right thing to do and because we care about the world and about others. And for whatever it's worth, the Bible also says that you shouldn't do good deeds just to be seen doing good deeds, and emphasizes sincerity and purity of motive. It covers both bases, I think.
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      @Castin
      I would say that while the Bible clearly does say in places that faith gets you into heaven and not actions, it just as clearly enforces a stick/carrot morality system in other places.
      Faith can't be separated from action as it isn't a mere credence to an idea or person.
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      @Polytheist-Witch
      Works does not get you into heaven Jesus specifically said that that's why your statements false.

      Ok lets see if you are correct.Witch, Do you do people a good turn only to expect a good turn in return? 
      I'm sure some of them do but you can do all the good work you want when you're a Christian it does not get you into heaven.

      I was asking if you do good turns only to expect a good turn in return? 



      So to say I do good works cuz Jesus will let me into heaven is not correct

      I didn't say that you do.  I have simply asked you if YOU do good turns only to expect the same in return? Yes or No.



      Jesus said the only way into heaven is through me so you can do all the good work she want if you don't believe Jesus died for your sins technically you don't get into heaven.

      That`s correct.  But then you have the problem of the  promises made in sermon on the mount which does promise a reward simply for believing in him. And this is my whole point.


      If we are going by the book. 

      I am going by "the book" which promises many rewards  for being good and benevolent AND believing in him and his words. And  to put it bluntly, this is nothing short of a bribe.

      This is why I have asked in my OP:

      Is offering compensation for these things, rather than teaching that true morality only takes place when you want to do what you are doing, is educationally and developmentally debilitating.

      The sermon on the mount on the other hand does not teach that we should do good things simply because it is the right thing to do.

      I won't waste anymore of your time , Witch. If you haven't grasped the point I am making by now, you won't grasp it at all.