God is not all powerful and it is impossible to be all powerful

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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If your all powerful, can you create a stone so heavy that not even yourself can lift it?

If the answer is yes, then you are not all powerful because you cannot lift such a stone.

If the answer is no, then you are not all powerful because you cannot create such a stone.

Therefore it is impossible for God to be all powerful which would explain why he rarely answers our prayers, if he exists and is worthy of worship.

My priest if I told him this, "Think with your heart".

Me: "Facts don't care about your feelings".
#2
FLRW
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@TheUnderdog

Well stated.
#3
TheMorningsStar
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This is a very old formulation of the Omnipotence paradox that is no longer seen as sound by most philosophers. The idea of 'creating a rock so big you cannot lift it' has been placed into the same category as the 'square circle'. As such the idea of what Omnipotence means has since changed. Of course, throughout the years of debate we ended up with the 'McEar Objection', which essentially points out that Omnipotence, when defined in such a way to be coherent, becomes a meaningless concept. The problem is that without covering the entirety of the topic all you will do is get the agreement of those that already agree and not much else.

This is why I believe that Ocean Keltoi's video 'My Beard is Omnipotent According to Philosophy' is one of the best videos going over Omnipotence. He uses the 'McEar Objection' but with his beard and it is great.
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#4
TheUnderdog
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@TheMorningsStar
 The idea of 'creating a rock so big you cannot lift it' has been placed into the same category as the 'square circle'.
How?
#5
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@TheUnderdog
A square circle is a conceptual impossibility, thus it is commonly viewed that an Omnipotent being not being able to create such a thing does not contradict Omnipotence.

The question is if the rock being created is also a conceptual impossibility, and the answer that has become the majority view by philosophers is yes because it is like saying ∞+1. Now, when we aren't talking about Hyperreal numbers that deal with infinity (which this concept does not really translate to very well) we run into an issue that ∞+1=∞. Now, as we know from elementary math we can subtract a number from both sides and each side of the equation should still be equal, so let's do that.
∞+1-1=∞-1 translates into ∞=∞-1
We also know from mathematics that we can replace a number with a mathematical equation that equals it.
∞+1=∞=∞-1 OR ∞+1=∞-1
Much like we originally did, let's subtract something of equal values from each side.
∞+1-∞=∞-1-∞ which translates into 1=-1
As you can see the concept itself leads to absurd ideas like "1=-1", thus much like the conceptually impossible 'square circle' the 'rock' from the Stone Problem of Omnipotence is also a conceptual impossibility, and thus the objection fails.

There are significantly more detailed and better ways of arriving to the same answer, I just chose one in which is easiest to understand.
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#6
TheUnderdog
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@TheMorningsStar
A square circle is a conceptual impossibility,  thus it is commonly viewed that an Omnipotent being not being able to create such a thing does not contradict Omnipotence.
An all powerful being not being able to create something contradicts being all powerful.  It's possible that God exists, just no possible that he's all powerful.  Humans aren't all powerful yet we exist so it's possible to not be all powerful and still exist.

 ∞+1. Now, when we aren't talking about Hyperreal numbers that deal with infinity (which this concept does not really translate to very well) we run into an issue that ∞+1=∞. 
This is in theory  true, but if you subtract infinity from both sides, you get 1=0 and this is incorrect.

I also fail to see how the infinity analogy is accurate.
#7
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@TheUnderdog
An all powerful being not being able to create something contradicts being all powerful
No, just not conceptually impossible things.

I also fail to see how the infinity analogy is accurate.
Because omnipotence is an infinite (∞) , the stone is greater than the being with omnipotence can lift and thus we represent this with '+1' (∞+1).
#8
n8nrgmi
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the question boils down to whether God is bound by logic. if he's not, then everything goes. if he is, then he just can't contradict himself or reality. 

like was said, just because he can't make a square ciricle doesn't mean he can't do everything. that's a logical impossiblity, so we shouldn't expect it from him. 

on the heavy stone question.... it boils down to the comment from the batman movie. what happens when an immoveabe object meets an unstoppable force? the rock here is the immovable object and God is the unstoppable force. the two things can't exist logically in the same reality. either one exists, or the other. and, so, God can create a rock he can't lift, or he can lift any rock he creates... but he can't do both, somehting impossible. 

#9
Dr.Franklin
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omnipotence paradox-debunked thousands of times
#10
Conway
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An all powerful being not being able to create something contradicts being all powerful.
If you had all the power in the world, and with that present power you could not move something that you made not to be moved, would you have all of the power in the world?

The reason the thing doesn't move isn't because a being is not all powerful.  It's just that all of the power of the world is not enough to move that thing.  
#11
Stephen
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@TheUnderdog
My priest if I told him this, "Think with your heart".

Me: "Facts don't care about your feelings".

Christians do not care for facts. Even when those facts appear in their own scripture, that is a fact.

#12
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@TheUnderdog
Hi TheUnderdog,

Omnipotence in the Christian religion - others can speak for themselves, is the idea that God can do whatever he wills to do. 

In other words, anything God wants to do - he can do. This means he can created a world with words.  He can create life. He can end life. 

He can make himself become human.  He can make invisible things become visible. 

Yet your suggestion  that if God cannot do absurd things then he is cannot do all things and therefore is not omnipotent is only a valid argument if it is what people who believe God is omnipotent mean by that statement.  You see, I don't agree with your definition. My definition of omnipotence is as above. Therefore - for me your argument is a strawman argument. 

God cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it.  Nor can God make a square a circle.   He can't do these things - not because he not powerful - but because they are illogical conundrums that don't make sense.  And also - God does not will to do them - so he OBVIOUSLY cannot be said not to do them.  It would only be sort of sensible if God wanted to do these absurd things and then found he could not do them.  Yet there is NO evidence whatsoever that he wants to.  


#13
Bones
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@Dr.Franklin
How would you reply to it. 
#14
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@Tradesecret
God cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it.  Nor can God make a square a circle.   He can't do these things - not because he not powerful - but because they are illogical conundrums that don't make sense.  
So God is bound within logic i.e, he cannot do that which is not logical? Then who created logic? Surely the creator of logic can escape logic. 
#15
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@Tradesecret
@BrotherDThomas
Nor can God make a square a circle.   He can't do these things - not because he not powerful - but because they are illogical conundrums that don't make sense.  And also - God does not will to do them 

You have a lot to say about god and do lot of gabbling for god, don't you, no more the Reverend "Trady" Tradesecrete"?

"In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God".1 Corinthians 2:11

There are many verses pertaining to the likes of you not knowing the mind of god but here you are explaining the mind of god and what he thinks or chooses to do. 

Jesus himself said "know one knows " except god.  You must be really special no more the Reverend "Tradey" Tradesecrete.


#16
Polytheist-Witch
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Power is more than physical strength. God doesn't even have a body so that's really dumb analogy.
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#17
TheUnderdog
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@Tradesecret
God cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it.
Then he's not all powerful because he cannot create such a stone.  

God does not will to do them
This is irrelevant.  The question is, "Can God do it?"
#18
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@Bones
probably how other users have responded, the fallacy doesnt get omnipotence
#19
n8nrgmi
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@TheUnderdog
u r just ignoring everyone. the only way God can be all powerful according to you, is if he can be illogical. why is it so hard to accept that some people think God would be only logical? 

an immovable object can only exist in the same reality as an unstoppable force, in an illogical world. the two things can't exist at the same time, by definition. the rock is the immovable object and God is the unstoppable force, here. 
#20
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i think underdog just refuses to listen to logic. 
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#21
TheUnderdog
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@n8nrgmi
    u r just ignoring everyone
I'm not ignoring everyone; I merely don't understand the argument.  If an unmovable object came into contact with an unstoppable force, either the force will be stopped or the object will be moved.
#22
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@TheUnderdog
fair enough, you just dont understand it then. 

the two things can't exist at the same time, as a logical necessity. unstoppable forces can't exist if there's immovable objects. think about what each thing means... they are absolute statements. two absolute statements that contradict each other can't exist at the same time, logically according to our current reality. 
#23
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i would suppose God can create an unstoppable force, or he could create an immovable object... but he can't do both at the same time, if he's bound by logic. i think the time element is key here, because he can switch gears between those two things as long as they dont exist at the same time. 
#24
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@TheUnderdog
It seems that you would agree with the following definitions:

  • Unstoppable force: a force with the ability to move anything
  • Immovable object: an object which nothing can move

Both of these objects cannot exist at the same time. If a force exists which can move the object, then the object cannot be said to be immovable. Conversely, if an object exists which cannot be move by the force, then the force cannot be said to be unstoppable. The definitions contradict each other.

Consider the definitions you are using  so-called omnipotence dilemma:

  • All-powerful: the ability to move anything
  • Stone: this particular stone is so heavy that nothing can move it

As with the first example, an "all-powerful" being cannot exist at the same time as an immovable stone for the same reason that there is a conflict in definitions. So far, I don't think I have said anything controversial yet.

To answer your question then, God cannot create a stone so heavy He could not lift it. But we have to know why before we jump to logical conclusions.

Can God do anything which would violate His nature? For example, can God lie?
#25
FLRW
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Well, we all know that God is dead. No one has talked to him in a burning bush for 3500 years.
#26
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret
@Fruit_Inspector


.


Fruit_Inspector, Tradesecret,

FRUIT_INSPECTOR, AND IN BEHALF OF TRADESECRET, YOUR QUOTE THAT NEEDS TO BE BIBLICALLY ADDRESSED:  "Can God do anything which would violate His nature? For example, can God lie?"

Unfortunately for me being the only TRUE Christian upon this forum, and where Fruit_Inspector and Tradesecret being one of the myriad of pseudo-christians upon this forum, the answer to your question is YES, our serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, can OUTRIGHT LIE, as biblically proven in the passages below:


DECEIVING: (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage. Therefore our Jesus LIED in the following inspired by Jesus passages herewith:

"For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."  (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." (Ezekiel 14:9)

"O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived." (Jeremiah 20:7)
 
Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people." (Jeremiah 4:10) 


Fruit_Inspector, as a TRUE Christian, I have had to accept that our Jesus is a LIAR!  FRUIT_INSPECTOR AND TRADESECRET, in turn, can you tell us in how you two feel about Jesus being a LIAR?

#27
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@BrotherDThomas

I see you still have me blocked. Very brave.
#28
Tradesecret
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@Bones
God cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it.  Nor can God make a square a circle.   He can't do these things - not because he not powerful - but because they are illogical conundrums that don't make sense.  
So God is bound within logic i.e, he cannot do that which is not logical? Then who created logic? Surely the creator of logic can escape logic. 
Bones, great question.  God is not so much bound to logic as he is to his own character.  Jesus is the LOGIC of God. In the beginning was the word (Logos) and the word (logos) was with God and the word (logos) was God. 

And when we talk about being bound by his own character - we are not talking as though he is somehow tied in knots by being good and holy. But rather that is exactly who he is and what he wants to be.  In other words,  the use of the term bind - is for human benefit as opposed to an actually restriction on God. God has no desire not to be good.  Whatever he wants or wills to do - he does.  But since he only ever seeks good and reasonable things - then he is entirely free to do whatever he wants.    This is in contrast to someone - say a human - who wants to do absurd things.  Or even illogical things.  The human in any of these situations - suddenly finds that they are bound by their nature.  Despite the fact that we want to do an absurd thing or even an illogical thing - does not mean we can do it. 

God's nature if I can put it that way is that there is NOTHING he cannot do - that he wants to do.  And since he is totally and flawlessly logical and reasonable - then he would never want to do something that is opposed to these things.  SO if he can do anything he wills to do - you know - like creating entire universes as a drop of a hat or a word,  or if he can do a miracle here and there, or raise someone from the dead, or something like that - then obviously his power is exponentially greater than anything we can do.   So to say God cannot lie - is to say - God always wants to tell the truth and he does that. Imagine if a human did that? That would make them incredibly powerful.  God cannot sin is to say that God always does what right in accordance with his own measures of rightness.  To say God cannot make a rock so big is simply to say God is not illogical or absurd but rather perfectly reasonable and logical.  That is his nature. IT is his character.  Logic therefore was not created - it has existed always - since it is part of the nature of God. 
#29
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@TheUnderdog
God cannot make a rock so big he can't lift it.
Then he's not all powerful because he cannot create such a stone.  
With respect,  you are mixing up power with logic.   The purpose of your original statement is intentionally a self-contradiction.  You would need to demonstrate that all powerful means to do the impossible - where the definition of impossible means something other than impossible.  Obviously that is illogical. It makes no sense.  The God of the Bible does not do impossible things.  Everything God does is possible. The logic of this is - if it is done, then it is possible.  

Now this does not mean that everything God does is also possible for humans.  Just like everything birds do - like fly is possible for humans.  Our nature as humans prevent us from doing whatever birds do - such as fly. SO is it impossible to fly for a human? Yes, unless we build a machine. But we discovered that flying is possible. Just not possible as a human relying entirely on ourselves without a machine. Or some kind of instrument like special clothing or such. 


God does not will to do them
This is irrelevant.  The question is, "Can God do it?"
On the contrary it is VERY relevant.  The only way it would be relevant is if you first prove that God is NOT holy and God is not omniscient.  To isolate any of God's attributes from whom God is - a strawman argument.    God is not isolated bits of character.   He is WHOLE.  

 
#30
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@TheUnderdog
The thing about God is he doesn't have to follow your sense of logic.