I'm struggling to see how people (not just Lunatic) consider my post in #88 to be overly "incredulous" or overly indignant. I spent the entirety of the post engaging Poly's arguments directly. I think they are wrong and I think the wagon on me is probably headed by SCUM. In my view it's an obvious mislynch train and I provided good reasons why. It's not even close to Badger's random accusation throwing in the last game. That's a horrible comparison.
destitution mafia DP1
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@MisterChris
I'm struggling to see how people (not just Lunatic) consider my post in #88 to be overly "incredulous" or overly indignant. I spent the entirety of the post engaging Poly's arguments directly. I think they are wrong and I think the wagon on me is probably headed by SCUM. In my view it's an obvious mislynch train and I provided good reasons why. It's not even close to Badger's random accusation throwing in the last game. That's a horrible comparison.
The reaction just comes off as defensive because poly pointed out a "slip" that literally anyone else would have pointed out if they were online. This morning I was catching up and saw the same thing and thought the same thing as poly before I even read his reaction to you.
Your response to poly was to instantly OMGUS vote him for what is in the mafia record book one of (IMO) the worst arguments in scum hunting. "You are trying to lead any random mislynch".
First off poly was the very first person on your wagon, and second scum are generally more calculated in PM chats then that. Is your thought process that mafia are in their communications saying "Let's throw out some random votes and see who bites!"? Generally mafia don't do that. I could buy an argument for bandwagoning better than that, which poly didn't really do since he was the one who caught the PM mess up and he was the first vote for you here.
So in light of the evenst of what happened, your reactionary vote seems very OMGUS based. Town sometimes can be defensive too, I just find that when mafia find the pressure is on they tend to over react a bit, especially in cases like badger where he hadn't played in a long time and was probably a bit caught off guard by the pressure. In your case, I will give you the slight benefit of the doubt in that I don't think you are noob as you have played in quite a lot of the recent games here.
All this is just to explain why I agree that your response could be seen as overtly defensive.
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@Lunatic
What are your thoughts on other players? Anyone you suspect currently?
For now, Polygot remains in my lean-SCUM category as he formed my mislynch train. However, should he reverse his position given the evidence I've presented, that read could become NULL, especially considering you apparently led a short lived wagon against Supa for much the same reason Poly jumped on me... You may have given him an example to work from.
I want to focus on those who jumped on my wagon without a second thought. There is undoubtedly SCUM in the mix.
I want to focus on those who jumped on my wagon without a second thought. There is undoubtedly SCUM in the mix.
I will say I still don't feel the best about pie. The lack of excitement or interest in scum hunting here just feels like such a stark contrast from his play in TUF villains. This could be attributed to lack of excitement due to the game design (I felt the same lack of excitement initially) but still it's such a drastic difference, that combined with the two bandwagon votes I am just not feeling too hot about him being town.
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@MisterChris
For now, Polygot remains in my lean-SCUM category as he formed my mislynch train. However, should he reverse his position given the evidence I've presented, that read could become NULL, especially considering you apparently led a short lived wagon against Supa for much the same reason Poly jumped on me... You may have given him an example to work from.I want to focus on those who jumped on my wagon without a second thought. There is undoubtedly SCUM in the mix.
I have a hard time grasping how the bolded above wouldn't be more of a priority than poly here... If there is scum in the mix, the wagoners should be much more suspicious here.
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@Lunatic
The reaction just comes off as defensive because poly pointed out a "slip" that literally anyone else would have pointed out if they were online. This morning I was catching up and saw the same thing and thought the same thing as poly before I even read his reaction to you.
What bothered me about Poly was not that he questioned my typo, it was that he blatantly contradicted himself while doing so and introduced arguments that were so loosely based on reality it genuinely appears as though he is purposely misrepresenting everything I do in order to start a wagon.
First, he says I am SCUM because I am overly worried about my lynch... That was an obvious twist on reality. All I did was contradict my initial wagon narrative. If mere contradiction constitutes anxiety, that's news to me. Then, he contradicts his initial argument by talking about my careless typo. After that, he falsely asserts (and he is still maintaining) that I claimed there is a TRACKER outright, and because of my skimming the DP and missing that everyone is a vig, I am SCUM. He isn't just lying, he is once again being inconsistent. Isn't it obvious how this goes against his previous statement? Like I said before, shouldn't that indicate me as TOWN, the fact I wasn't overly concerned about claiming and I didn't realize everyone in TOWN was a vig and yet I claimed to be one?
Ultimately, it's clear he isn't thinking his argument through enough and is more worried about starting a wagon than actually being correct about who is SCUM. That's why I scum read him.
Is your thought process that mafia are in their communications saying "Let's throw out some random votes and see who bites!"? Generally mafia don't do that.
I think it's a perfectly viable strategy for SCUM to make a mountain out of a molehill, formulate a wagon and see if TOWN buys it. That happens all the time.
I have a hard time grasping how the bolded above wouldn't be more of a priority than poly here... If there is scum in the mix, the wagoners should be much more suspicious here.
I'm waiting for Poly's response before I shift pressure.
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@Lunatic
Can you explain why you think it's a town tell that he thinks there would be another town role besides the thing everyone else is claiming?
Responding to this post now because I was tagged in it, I see the DP has gotten a lot bigger and will catch up in a few hours.
That post by MC came me off to me as genuine townie cluelessness. Keep in mind that being wrong is not inherently a scum tell and a lack of info is characteristic of town players. I don't think I have ever played with him so I cannot say whether he is good at faking such things as scum.
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@MisterChris
A couple things about poly to remember.
He is pretty new to the game so assuming he can catch all these nuances about why he should give you a pass as town is a little far fetched. Most new players
(even a lot of current old dogs here who have played a while) kind of just call things as they see it. Especially on a debate site, it's more natural for most people to take things at face value. I don't think it's incredibly surprising for him not to be giving you a lot of hard passes here the way I kind of am.
Secondly the tracker thing is pretty sus, because we had established at this point that the only way the game design makes sense if for everyone to have the same role. Even if that wasn't unanimously agreed upon, there was multiple claims at that point proving the theory correct. So mention of tracker or other roles proves that you either aren't caught up or slipped. I don't think it's surprising that many of the current players aren't willing to give you the pass of not having read completely. Again many people who play here just call it as they see it, and sometimes that results in mislynches, but it's a mislynch they will turn around and blame you for in the end. People like pie do that shit all the time as town, and turn it around in the endgame on the person he mislynched (like with earth in the last game). It's just how it is.
So what we are left with is this: Maybe town is being a little unforgiving about your behavior. But at the end of the day you made a mistake, and people latched onto it, as town tend to do with these things. I am left with trying to determine how authethic your raction to that pressure is, and I am still not sure how to read the fact that you are not being very understanding of your pressure, though it seems like it should be fairly obvious. Then we are back in the loop of "is this misterchris being defensive here mean he is scum, or just being an obstinate town?"
If I am willing to give you the pass for being obstinate town, I have to take in consideration what your plan to fix the current situation or get the day phase back on track is. If it's to pressure poly, then you are kind of hopeless here. Poly's reaction even if you can argue is mis-led, or not taking into account town motives, or whatever you want to say, is an accurate and commonly held position nonetheless. You didn't read the phase, slipped, and messed up. Redirecting pressure on to poly is a complete waste of time and will bring us no where with the day phase soon coming to an end.
My problem with Chris is the reaction he gave at Poly felt so OMGUS. I can excuse his 4x vig shot as him not reading PM properly because I did the same thing myself. I can also brush off the whole Tracker thing too because while it doesn't sit right, it didn't come off as anti town. I just think his reaction as "town will lose and are being idiots and are screwed" is damning. Emotions are cool in all but no one is that over the top about their lynch as town unless they are a massive PR and we know for a fact there isn't a PR in this game. People consider me defensive as hell as scum and I don't even really put on that much a show/scene (I used to though to be fair to Chris). It just seems a bit forced and the OMGUS certainly doesn't help
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Responding to this post now because I was tagged in it, I see the DP has gotten a lot bigger and will catch up in a few hours.That post by MC came me off to me as genuine townie cluelessness. Keep in mind that being wrong is not inherently a scum tell and a lack of info is characteristic of town players. I don't think I have ever played with him so I cannot say whether he is good at faking such things as scum.
Oh I agree with that sentiment, I've actually been saying the same thing in a semi defense of chris the last couple pages. At most I just think its a null tell though, and I fail to see how that it makes him look better or worse. You specifically read him as town after saying it, so I am just curious why you think the cluelessness is townie cluelessness over mafia cluelessness. Or just why it isn't a null tell.
Oh and by the way Lunatic is pretty hard town read. As scum Lunatic would've pushed the shit outta either Chris or I's lynched because of us not reading PM's properly as he's done in the past. The fact he excused it and is leaning back on Chris is very much town tell
I'm also putting Pie in my lean scum. He just seems to keep jumping on the most convenient wagon without thinking. Assuming everyone is vig with 4x deathproof, it's not like Pie is vanilla, so why is he being lazy
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@Lunatic
I will be honest and say I am piggybacking off of what other people are saying. Though, when I saw my role, I instantly assume this will be a funky game and probably wouldn't have assumed there's a tracker.
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@Earth
I will be honest and say I am piggybacking off of what other people are saying. Though, when I saw my role, I instantly assume this will be a funky game and probably wouldn't have assumed there's a tracker.
Well, at least you are honest lol.
Though I would reccomend if you are town here to read through things and try to see if there is any behaviors that stand out to you because the day phases are shorter than normal and we are running low on time currently. Given the plurality lynching mechanic we ought to start deciding who we want to lynch and soon.
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@Lunatic
So what we are left with is this: Maybe town is being a little unforgiving about your behavior. But at the end of the day you made a mistake, and people latched onto it, as town tend to do with these things. I am left with trying to determine how authethic your raction to that pressure is, and I am still not sure how to read the fact that you are not being very understanding of your pressure, though it seems like it should be fairly obvious. Then we are back in the loop of "is this misterchris being defensive here mean he is scum, or just being an obstinate town?"
The thing I was surprised about isn't that TOWN reacted to my #81 post. That's to be expected. What surprised me is that TOWN continued to harp on the same arguments that I addressed literally a few posts later in #88 until I came back just a few hours ago (I mean, what I've been saying today to defend myself is basically what I was saying last night). It frustrated me that what I said to defend myself was more or less ignored while TOWN was being led into a mislynch. I guess that's the reason you can sense some defensiveness in my tone. I don't expect everyone to automatically pick up nuances, but I think if I explain the nuances and it's still ignored I have a reason to be a bit defensive.
You can call me "obstinate TOWN," and maybe that's accurate. As long as you recognize I'm TOWN we can shift to a more productive gear.
If it's to pressure poly, then you are kind of hopeless here. Poly's reaction even if you can argue is mis-led, or not taking into account town motives, or whatever you want to say, is an accurate and commonly held position nonetheless.
I'm not advocating a lynch of him or even increased pressure as of yet. I'm just waiting to see how he responds. I want to watch how all players react now to find SCUM.
UNVOTE.
For now I'll unvote if it makes you happy.
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@MisterChris
The thing I was surprised about isn't that TOWN reacted to my #81 post. That's to be expected. What surprised me is that TOWN continued to harp on the same arguments that I addressed literally a few posts later in #88 until I came back just a few hours ago (I mean, what I've been saying today to defend myself is basically what I was saying last night). It frustrated me that what I said to defend myself was more or less ignored while TOWN was being led into a mislynch. I guess that's the reason you can sense some defensiveness in my tone. I don't expect everyone to automatically pick up nuances, but I think if I explain the nuances and it's still ignored I have a reason to be a bit defensive.
Even in describing the situation now I feel like you are being a bit over exaggerative of your actual pressure. Like what do you mean about town "harping on the same arguments"? Between the time you logged off last night and logged on today there wasn't an extreme amount of activity about you. You had your spat with poly, pie bandwagoned and I am currently suspicious of him for his low effort wagoning from the day phase, and even then it's not like he really came at you with much. Same with supa who is mostly just on you for the defensive thingwhich even you seem to admit you were a bit defensive since you say you have reason to be. You haven't really addressed pie or supa individually, and maybe that's just because I am the only one online and responding, but it seems like if you were wanting to deter them it would be fairly easy to considering it's not like they have a lot on you. Your whole reaction to like 3 votes was "TOWN SUCKS" and a pity party.
I'm not advocating a lynch of him or even increased pressure as of yet. I'm just waiting to see how he responds. I want to watch how all players react now to find SCUM.UNVOTE.For now I'll unvote if it makes you happy.
Town's goal shouldn't me to make "lunatic happy" and if it were, unvoting doesn't accomplish what I was asking. If you are town, then town's goal should be to decide on an approptiate lynching course before the day phase expires with a plurality lynch. Given that the most votes are still probably on you, you probably have a vested interest here in helping decide a better lynch. So if not poly then who?
What are your thoughts on pie's activity, do you agree that his bandwagoney/ less enthusiastic approach to this game is scummy given is extreme activity in TUF Villains dp1? Besides you, the only other person I am really consindering a lynch on would be pie here.
god damn spelling errors up the wazoo
vtl pie.
Right now it's him or Chris, and I feel pie is scummier atm based on his less than enthusiastic approach to the game, and general low effort. Doesn't seem interested in solving who scum is. I'll probably be using my vig on him tonight,
Remember we all need to state our intentions with the vig kill and get ready to explain what and why we did or didn't with the vig kills next day phase. We should actually be able to get a lot of information out of the vig kills and can POE scum by figuring out who targeted who, since apparently we get notified of how many death proofs we have left each night. We can use the vig's as pseudo investigations.
We have roughly 6 hours left in the phase based on what wylted said earlier.
Kinda feeling sus of whiteflame now too based on his activity. Probably not fair given this is a shorter phase limit game, but after having watched him skate by as mafia I am a little wary. And that's largely how he won was no one pressured him in TUF Villains either. Behaviorally hasn't done much to make me specifically suspect him though.
Will be back to respond later tonight. Got some church stuff to get to
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@Vader
I'm also putting Pie in my lean scum. He just seems to keep jumping on the most convenient wagon without thinking. Assuming everyone is vig with 4x deathproof, it's not like Pie is vanilla, so why is he being lazy
Convenient? You slipped. Chris slipped. I posted evidence to show he’s done virtually the same thing as scum in a previous game.
I am in no way “lazy” lol
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@MisterChris
I probably wont be able to repsond to your response, long story short we gotta find a target, I would use your time looking for who were gonna lynch
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@Lunatic
Right now it's him or Chris, and I feel pie is scummier atm based on his less than enthusiastic approach to the game, and general low effort. Doesn't seem interested in solving who scum is. I'll probably be using my vig on him tonight,
I’m confused. You don’t think I’m scum hunting? I literally have no words lol. Everything about Chris screams scum. Read that game - I think you nodded it. The reactions and everything are the same
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@Earth
It looks like Chris is the hip thing to FOS. I don't really get what the Tracker thing is supposed to prove.
To prove that he does a have Vigilante powers
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@ILikePie5
I’m confused. You don’t think I’m scum hunting? I literally have no words lol. Everything about Chris screams scum. Read that game - I think you nodded it. The reactions and everything are the same
I read what you referenced earlier, I didn't find it crazy convincing if you argument is that he was asking for someone to cop him knowing he could lawyer it, to this game where he is asking to be tracked. The large difference is whether I buy chris being that blatantly lazy as scum to not have read that everyone was claiming the same thing, so him asking to be tracked almost makes it look more innocent (in that I kind of agree with disci, though I don't give it a full pass since it could have been a genuine scum slip). If were looking at chris as a scum target here I am more interested in his reactions which I still think air on the side of scummy.
My point in regards to you being scummy is just the general lack of effort. You made that one point on chris and kind of have been absent. Then the prior bandwagon on supa doesn't help. Idk I guess I am just noticing a difference between your town play here and in the last game, and you seem generally less than enthusiastic. Even with your chris read, it doesn't really seem like you are pushing it hard, or trying to get inactive town on to vote, etc. These are things I have come to expect from town pie. Just a general interest in moving things forward. You know that pie impatience, wanting to get the ball rolling. Where is that?
I will say I don't think pie and chris are on the same team here by interactions. Could be wrong about that but I feel pretty confident. So if I go with one over the other I will have to admit the other is more likely town.
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@Lunatic
I read what you referenced earlier, I didn't find it crazy convincing if you argument is that he was asking for someone to cop him knowing he could lawyer it, to this game where he is asking to be tracked.
It’s a parallel. Also look at his attitude when he’s scum read. “Town is screwed.” Same thing here. When he gets called out, he doesn’t respond well to pressure. I’m not scumreading him as much for saying 4x Vig as I am fro his reactions to that whole incident.
The large difference is whether I buy chris being that blatantly lazy as scum to not have read that everyone was claiming the same thing, so him asking to be tracked almost makes it look more innocent (in that I kind of agree with disci, though I don't give it a full pass since it could have been a genuine scum slip). If were looking at chris as a scum target here I am more interested in his reactions which I still think air on the side of scummy.
Exactly what I’m trying to argue.
My point in regards to you being scummy is just the general lack of effort. You made that one point on chris and kind of have been absent. Then the prior bandwagon on supa doesn't help.
The problem is that Supa does this all the time. At some point he’s gonna be scum. And this game cannot be solved as well in the DP as the NP. The coordination required involves everyone targeting the lynch the target.
Idk I guess I am just noticing a difference between your town play here and in the last game, and you seem generally less than enthusiastic.
Everyone is the same role at least base don’t what everyone has said. It’s pretty much just a vanilla game
Even with your chris read, it doesn't really seem like you are pushing it hard, or trying to get inactive town on to vote, etc.
Like I said, we don’t necessarily need to lynch Chris fo eliminate him in the night. We have more than enough vigilante shots to get rid of him. A bandwagon is sufficient to eliminate him because it portrays him as a target.
These are things I have come to expect from town pie. Just a general interest in moving things forward. You know that pie impatience, wanting to get the ball rolling. Where is that?
Ya I’m ready to kill Chris cause only way he can die is by 5 Vig shots in the night. The DP lynch doesn’t even matter that much as long as we have a clear target - Chris.