Response on Apostasy & Stoning

Author: Yassine
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stoning

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#1
Yassine
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While I can agree that women should obey their husband, and I also agree about morality coming from Allah. 
- From there it follows: if it's Allah's morality is to punish apostates, so it should yours.

The stat I am concerned about is punishing those who leave the faith. What would that pu ishment entail and why? Isn't them being condemned to hell a good enough punishment as is?
- Your argument is: temporal punishment is unwarranted since an absolute punishment exists? That entails Law & penalties are superfluous. Maybe, a hasty judgement? Also, a finite punishment does not impact an infinite one, to add to your words...

Also, while homosexuality should certainly be discouraged through social pressure, I'm not exactly sure why a Muslim would advocate stoning the.. 
- You sound sincere in your question so I'm going to answer sincerely in good faith, as I know you can be a troll. In injecting an Islamic practice into an assumed secular paradigm you're begging the question. This is not a question on the effective practices, this is rather a question on the underlined values behind those practices. What do Muslims believe about foundational values?

- We believe our souls established a covenant (Ahd) with Allah to worship only Him. Then brought to this life as delegates (Khilafa) to Allah in this Earthly domain to cultivate & colonize the land (Istimar), acting on by proxy rights (Haq) granted by Allah. In this life our yearning for God is actually the memory of our covenant, as if something we miss we are incomplete without. This memory is our innate state of being (Fitrah), which manifests in our faculty to seek the divine & recognize it when we see it. This faculty is reason (Aql), gift entrusted to us to be fulfilled upon maturity. We are responsible (Taklif) to uphold that trust (Amana) by preserving our innate state of being (Fitrah) -thus our covenant- until we return to Allah again after death. Maintaining our covenant is to worship Allah alone (Ibada). Upon death, our last state of being (Khatima) is what counts, wether we have succeeded in the preservation of our innate state of being (Fitrah) or destroyed it, wether our good deeds outweigh our bad deeds or the opposite. In that course, Allah tests us with ease & trial (Ibtila) to reveal wether we are sincere & to remind us not to steer away from Him. Worship in essence is recognition of the divine –in the absolute, thus recognition of the self –in self-annihilation. This realization is submission to Allah (Islam) manifesting in gratitude & humility. Failure to achieve this realization is delusion, manifesting in arrogance & ingratitude. Gratitude is accomplished by repaying Allah's debt (Deen) on the self [Deen = religion]. Only Allah can tell us how to be grateful, hence revelation (Naql). If reason (Aql) is a gift to seek Allah, revelation (Naql) is a gift to know Allah. If revelation in essence is a message to adore the One (Tawhid), then reason in essence is to make-One (Tawhid, in the literal sense).

[To elaborate on that last bit, Tawhid literally means: make one. we believe that our memory of the One as our innate state of being is Reason itself. Thus, the essence of Reason is in: the conception of universals -that is to make-One particulars, & also the anticipation of explanations & causes (law of causation). It is as if, our memory of the One gives us the unique ability to see Him in the world, to see unity in the many, thus infer universals from particulars; that our memory of the One creates a want within us as if we miss Him that we seek explanations in everything we see in anticipation of an ultimate explanation: Him – to make-One, that is Tawhid].

- Transgression is to infringe on the right of another; the Earth being the domain of Allah (along with all things), any human exercise of rights therein is therefore transgressive. However, since Allah has made us delegates on the Earth we can act by proxy in his domain. Thus, as long as human exercises of rights  are within the boundaries set by Allah, they are non-transgressive. – From this respect, Sharia, being inspired from a divine message, unavoidably must seek to preserve our innate state of being, while empowering us to settle on the Earth. Sharia must remove impediments to the soul's purpose of finding Allah in the temporal life. It follows, boundaries must be set to safeguard these purposes & transgression against these boundaries must be penalized, hence the 6 sacred rights:

  • 1. Faith, for only in guaranteeing freedom of faith does the soul have the choice to uphold the covenant or break it.
  • 2. Life, for only in survival does the soul have the chance to seek her purpose in finding Allah after maturity & to prosper on the Earth.
  • 3. Reason, for only in preservation of reason that the soul may find its memory of Allah after maturity & settle rationally on the Earth. 
  • 4. Family – (for progeny, from a man & woman union), for only with nurtured & stable progeny that future souls may also get their chance at finding He who they have lost & also at settling & prospering on Earth.
  • 5. Property – (material wealth), for only in guaranteeing earthly rights that can soul follow its purpose while being settled on the Earth.
  • 6. Honor – (moral wealth), idem.
- We also believe that we get rewarded for our own good deeds, but also for the deeds others do thanks to ourselves. If I teach my child a virtue then I too get a reward whenever that virtue is actualized. & if he teaches his child, I get both, & so on ad infinitum. For the sake of preserving future souls & for the sake of gaining more rewards, Family preservation is necessary, thus a sacred right in Sharia. Any impediments to the sanctity of Family must be removed by Sharia, thus transgressions against the integrity of the family must be penalized; particularly, extra-marital intercourse type. Two such transgressions stand out above the rest: adultery & sodomy, for one leads to unsafe progeny & the other to no progeny at all. Therefore, adultery & sodomy must not be allowed, thus penalized. Hence, Hadd (penalty) in Sharia literally means 'stop' or 'limit'. However, given the very nature of these acts being generally carried out in private. Sharia deals a two-fold block to the practice:

  • In private: if the practice was performed in private, then it must stay very in private. One, repentance in secret is mandatory. Two, exposure of the act by another party is punishable as calumny (qathf – in 80 lashes). Three, confessions are extremely discouraged, views of ulama range from accepting 4 consecutive & consistent confessions to not accepting any at all. Four, even if the confession is accepted recanting is possible up to the last moment, the transgressor need just call it off or leave the circle of penalty for it to stop. Five, in case the spouse was the witness, the outcome is permanent separation (Lian) without any need for public or legal recourse. Six, in case the spouse finds out after birth, the child is his by Sharia, unless in divorce. Seven, circumstantial or indirect (such as video) evidence is unacceptable & liable to punishment. Eight, having any number of testimonies less than 4 righteous, simultaneous corroborating & accidental witnesses on the act of penetration is punishable as calumny (80 lashes each) – which is a prohibitively impossible condition to fulfill unless the act is done in public. Nine, ignorance of the prohibition of the act in Sharia is like no act has occurred...etc. – In short, Sharia enacts all possible venues to keep private extra-marital intercourse as private as possible, deterring any revelatory factors, thus insuring integrity of the family & safeguarding the honor of those involved to allow for repentance & to protect their children's wellbeing; but also to block the spread of the act or any potential normalization.
  • In public: if the act was performed in public, in a reasonably crowded place, where the condition: 4 righteous, simultaneous corroborating & accidental witnesses on the act of penetration fulfilled (for instance, not in a brothel where witnesses' testimonies would be invalid), then the punishment is stoning to death (Rajm). –  In reality, only two such cases were recorded in the Ottoman empire during its 6 centuries of reign, one of which was a set-up. No one would actually go to those lengths for a bit of pleasure! Given that this kind of scenario's likelihood is of mythical proportions, the true purpose of Sharia is to prompt hopelessness into any attempt to advertise, promote or normalize these acts; also, the image of stoning is so harsh & horrifying, that in itself is a powerful deterrent from even thinking about committing such acts, even in private. 

Please respond to the punishment stuff.
- I see our fellow quoted another post of mine >>> In the spirit of education again, there are three legal perspectives on apostasy among the Fuqaha. Any objections?

When you look at how predominantly muslim societies will often stone queers to death and do honor killings, I think they mean punished by death in those statistics. 
- Aren't you very funny! You may wanna think about how the world sees the US, as the most violent nation on Earth. The occasional once a year "honor killing" headline in American TV from some other country, is met with an abundant stream of daily, if not hourly, violent crimes headlines in that other country. It's revolting. The delusion is almost pitiable. Another thing I don't get about his nonsense... it's not like these murders you love to call "honor killing" are legal, they are just murder. As a matter of fact, honor killings are un-Islamic practices imported from the West during Colonialism, a legacy of Civil Law (Swiss, Germanic & French) in these countries. Disgusting! It was not, in fact, until very recently that countries like Italy & Brazil criminalized murder for honor, like WTF?!!  Other Western countries opted for change of language instead, passion instead of honor. Honor killings is murder, the "honor" label doesn't add or diminish anything from the act of taking a life. They don't like calling it honor killing in the West, so they instead call it crime of passion or crime of pride. We'll save the "terrorist" label for those we don't like, aka Muslims. We'll save the "honor killings" label for them too. Rightly so, mass killings by Whites happen virtually every other day, yet that one Muslim "terrorist" in 3 years is so much more... murder rates of women in crimes of passion or pride or greed is dozens if not hundreds of times higher than those "honor killings" in these countries, but they have the bad label, they must be so much worse. Lmao! How effing dumb is this?! In truth, you have most heinous types of murder in the US, mass murderers shoot others for no reason whatsoever, serial killers by the thousands murder for sheer pleasure. Do disturbing, it's as if the US is in a planet of its own in crimes.


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Yassine
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@Wylted
- Legal perspectives on apostasy among the Fuqaha:

  • i. The fuqaha's (jurists) views (the more familiar to most) on apostasy are concerned more about how to deal with apostates in practice to maintain social integrity, generally by exercising persuasion, confinement or punishment. The general & majority view on this is that an apostate who has explicitly, willingly & publicly left Islam after explicitly, willingly & publicly coming into it, is to be indefinitely persuaded as long as he is willing, else punished (unless a woman). In practice this means that truth seeking law abiding apostates are not punishable.
  • ii. The usulis (jurisprudents) look at apostasy as a question of Taklif (accountability), the legal dilemma of reconciling apostasy punishment (which looks like coercion) with the principle of non-coercion in faith. That is, true freedom of religion can only be accomplished by removing deceptive factors & guaranteeing access to truth seeking -which is why public preaching is also prohibited in Sharia, for that is deemed propagandism. Therefore, coercion by deception & dominance is alleviated, upholding thus the principle of non-coercion.
  • iii. The sasas (political theorists) perspective on apostasy is in reality the most relevant, for it relates to the actual governance of the state. To them apostasy is a political offense -as opposed to a criminal one, thus they only view apostasy in light of Manaa: the intent with means to undermine the integrity of the state. Thus, they don't care about individual apostates. This is why looking back into Islamic history, all those famous apostates have never been punished, for they stayed loyal to the state.


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zedvictor4
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@Yassine
Is it Allah's will that people should not be free to choose.

No, it's the will of men.
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@Yassine
thank you Yasmine for taking the time to respond to that
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@Yassine
That's a very detailed response and very enlightening. Have you considered writing a book?

I bet anyone reading your book on Islam would stand to gain a lot from it. Atleast somebody like me who knows nothing about it. 
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@Wylted
I bet anyone reading your book on Islam would stand to gain a lot from it.

 Why?
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RationalMadman
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Sharia Propaganda
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Yassine
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@zedvictor4
Is it Allah's will that people should not be free to choose.

No, it's the will of men.
- You got something to say? What's the argument?

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Yassine
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@Wylted
thank you Yasmine for taking the time to respond to that
- You're welcome Whylied. 

That's a very detailed response and very enlightening. Have you considered writing a book?
I bet anyone reading your book on Islam would stand to gain a lot from it. At least somebody like me who knows nothing about it. 
- Thank you. That's actually something which's been on my mind the last couple of years. Generally books on Islam in the West are either written by a modernist scholar who doesn't understand traditional Islam thus presents Islamic tenets in a modern paradigm, which of course does not work well, since Islam revolves around God while modernism revolves around Man. Or, by a traditional scholar (student of knowledge) who does not understand the western audience thus gives an expose of Islam which assumes an unspoken paradigm the reader can not relate to. I noticed the difference in paradigm even in basic things like Logic, for intense, when I was learning western Logic. Although they are both from the same general Western Logic (as opposed to Eastern), Islamic Logic is structurally tied to the Arabic language, the transition to a western type Logic, say in English, is not a simple act of translation. A paradigm gear must be shifted to better achieve that transition & better relay the information. However, I don't know if I'm up to the task. Thank you nonetheless, I'll think more seriously about it.
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Yassine
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@RationalMadman

Sharia Propaganda
- Oh, sorry I lied. We actually believe adultery & sodomy are amazing things... GTFO!

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@Yassine
It's there  in 18 words.

Why  say in a 1000 words, what can be said in 18.



So prove that it is a GODS will and not just the will of men.


NB. All literature is  written by humans...So it's no good whatsoever, quoting from old or reinterpreted literature.
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Yassine
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@zedvictor4
It's there  in 18 words.
Why  say in a 1000 words, what can be said in 18.
So prove that it is a GODS will and not just the will of men.
NB. All literature is  written by humans...So it's no good whatsoever, quoting from old or reinterpreted literature.
- Let's debate that. I'll take 'it's divine' & you take 'it's human'.

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@Yassine
So what is divinity other than the concepts and consequent faith of men?
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@Yassine
Your entire post is full of absolute bullshit, no other word for it. For instance, in order to distract from how horrific and unjustified 'honor killings' are, you compare them to murders done in an emotional heated moment which is not just called a crime of passion but is known as the impulsive variant of second degree murder usually (sometimes it's third degree if the way it happened was very accidental and indirect vs the aggressive act made. The crimes of passion that result in human death are not comparable to honor killings, in fact honor killings quite literally always involve premeditation because the family conspires to do it beforehand.


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Yassine
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@zedvictor4
So what is divinity other than the concepts and consequent faith of men?
- You're free to argue that. 'Divine' as in from God. So, shall we proceed with the debate?

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@Yassine
A response to a prior comment you made. 

My point is clear. To leaving Islam does not require physical action, it is quite literally a thought crime. You see nothing wrong with being stoned to death for leaving behind a belief? 

There is a difference between obeying someone and having mutual respect. In a marriage, the man should respect the women, and the women should respect the man. Obedience is what you ask for from a servant or slave. 

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@Yassine
A formal debating contest is something that I don't have time for.

But I'm happy to discuss.


So, to confirm divinity you must first  prove an actual GOD, rather than a hypothetical GOD.


A formal debate will not prove an actual GOD, but only compare the literary abilities and level of knowledge relative to a subject.

To date, the highest levels of knowledge and literary skill have only ever managed to elucidate an elaborate, supernatural hypothesis, and never been able to prove an actual GOD.

But feel free to have a go.
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Yassine
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@RationalMadman

- You really like to comment on my posts for someone who supposedly likes blocking me.

Your entire post is full of absolute bullshit, no other word for it. For instance, in order to distract from how horrific and unjustified 'honor killings' are, you compare them to murders done in an emotional heated moment which is not just called a crime of passion but is known as the impulsive variant of second degree murder usually (sometimes it's third degree if the way it happened was very accidental and indirect vs the aggressive act made. The crimes of passion that result in human death are not comparable to honor killings, in fact honor killings quite literally always involve premeditation because the family conspires to do it beforehand.
- Let me get this straight, you're condemning one type of murder -of "honor", by defending another type of murder –of "passion". Your moral ground just hit rock-bottom, & yet you dare vomit blame from your moral abyss. Are you a psychopath?!! The great irony here; passion killing, perpetrated in rage under pressure from a feeling of betrayal & loss of one's selfish peace, is in fact –in your own ideal– much less defensible than crimes of honor, thus perpetrated in rage under pressure from not only a feeling of betrayal of one's emotional peace, but also a dread of loss of the family's livelihood & place in the community. Absolutely revolting! As a matter of fact, crimes of honor are a disgusting Western invention, born from British law & Napoleonic Law (& others), to give leniency or acquit those who kill their spouses they suspect of infidelity to protect their honor, which was imposed on colonized countries across the globe –in spite of local laws; this disgusting virus thus made it in Muslim, African, South Asian & South American countries –thankfully these have since been reversed in most. There is no such thing as crime of honor (or passion) in Sharia. Amusingly, even though these laws were reformed in the West these last few decades, their legacy still persists today under different names: passion crime – gay panic – trans panic... but the rational is the same: leniency or acquittance to spouse murderers suspected of infidelity or to gay killers in panic... Such replacements are hence not due to enlightened ideas about murder, but merely for loss of social honor in the West; the same way chastity laws were replaced with –equivalent– statutory consent laws in the 1980s for simply loss of chastity.  

- The even greater irony, they don't have honor laws (or passion laws) in most these non-Western countries, yet you still do in the West. Murder for passion (or honor) in Turkey, or virtually any Muslim country (except those still maintaining colonial laws) means life in prison. If you take a life of a human being for "passion" then you poor little thing need leniency? If you take a life of a human being for "honor" then you scum need to hang?!!! What a barbaric savage Law that favors some murders over others based on motive (of passion, greed, pride, honor, or jealousy...). I will raise you another one: in the same token that they publicize in your country the occasional "honor crime" incident from some country (omitting the legal outcomes of those incidents), other countries also publicize a constant stream of much more heinous crimes, mass murders, serial killers, children killers, parent killers, baby killers, cannibal killers, fetish killers,...committed in the USA, the United Syndicates of A-erotica...  countless murderers not motivated by pressure, but rather by sheer pleasure in murder itself, psychopaths.

- Contrast this with Sharia, any willful (non-accidental) & transgressive (not in self-defense) taking of life is murder, regardless of premeditation or motives: a soul for a soul. Period. It matters not to Sharia wether you have a rage moment or "impulse" to kill, it's murder. Spare me your nonsense, your laws are horrid & your history is disgusting. Now who's full of bullshit?! That's what I thought.

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Yassine
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@Bones
A response to a prior comment you made. 

My point is clear. To leaving Islam does not require physical action, it is quite literally a thought crime. You see nothing wrong with being stoned to death for leaving behind a belief? 
- Don't lie, there is no stoning for apostasy in Islam. This reminds me of US-enacted laws against advocacy for communism, in some states -like Michigan- the punishment was life-sentence, Tennessee even decreed death penalty for advocacy...–acts supported by 46% of Americans. In your words, to leave Liberal Capitalism does require physical action it's literally a thought crime. Thousands of communists persecuted & incarcerated in the 40s & 50s for only being liberal-capitalism apostates. We've never heard of anything remotely close done against Muslim apostates under the most brutal regimes –even all combined– in Muslim countries in history. But tell me, while those 40% of Muslims may also be thought to defend against perceived acts of sedition or treason against their nation from apostates, how do you defend the 50% of Americans advocating for violence against innocent civilians?!

- You have yet to address anything I said, if your actual intent was to defend your position or attack mine. Apostasy ruling in Sharia is literally set to defend the sacred Right to Faith, guaranteeing freedom of faith to insure the soul's choice in its pursuit of the divine. If you disagree with this approach, then bring actual objections to the case, or debate me. Your tactics aren't very persuasive.  

There is a difference between obeying someone and having mutual respect.
- This is still missing the part where you show how this relates to peace.

In a marriage, the man should respect the women, and the women should respect the man.
- Sneaky way of promoting polygamy there. Thumbs up.

Obedience is what you ask for from a servant or slave
- Thank you for admitting your women being slaves to their bosses & every other type of men, as long as they are not their husbands.

- As to your "respect" professions, it's empty nonsense. Respect is 'Ihtiram' in Arabic, meaning 'bring about sanctity'. Respect entails sanctifying & upholding boundaries, of rights & dues. In a marriage contractual relationship, the man has rights over his wife as the wife has rights over her man. In Sharia, the man must dutiful in guaranteeing physical, material & emotional security to his wife, in exchange the wife must be dutiful in fulfilling her husband's needs (–namely sexual needs & all that these entail). 

– In Sharia, the distribution of rights/dues is not horizontal where all citizens have exactly equal rights, nor is it vertical where rights/dues are hierarchal. Rather, it's a network distribution, where every person -a node- has rights/dues according to their connections & positions in society, according to three types of connections:
  • Natural (Tab') relation –from birth, predetermined & irreversible regardless of circumstance, such as between parent & child, inherited & inheritor, blood relations... etc.
  • Contractual ('Aqd) relation –from mutual consent, incumbent upon contract & void upon annulment,  such as between husband & wife, employer & employee, ruler & subject...etc.
  • Conventional (Wad') relation –of status, mandated when relevant & obsolete when not, such as between neighbor & neighbor, guardian & orphan, Muslim & non--Muslim..etc. 
- From these relations, the relevant here are Care relations (Ri'aya) where one party is set to offer security to another, such as: parent–child, husband–wife, ruler–subject, employer–employee, master–slave... Thus, marriage relationships fall under the umbrella of Care relations (Ri'aya), the general understanding regarding these types of relations in Sharia is the guarantee of basic rights to each party accordingly:
  • Care (Ri'aya) from guarantor (ra'yi) to obligee (ra'yya) which include material security & may include physical or emotional or other securities –according to the type of relationship. In a marriage, this is called Qiwama, which comprise care, protection & maintenance. 
  • Dutifulness (Ta'a) from obligee to guarantor –according to the scope of Security offered, conforming to the following rules enjoined by the Prophet (pbuh): no duty to creature can trump duty to Creator; duty is obligatory in what fulfills the stated benefits to the guarantor & does not harm the obligee; duty is permissible within what is reasonable & what is beneficial...etc. For instance, an employer's stated benefits is the task he is paying his employer to perform, duty in fulfilling this task is obligatory in Sharia, anything else isn't. The greatest enjoined duty in Islam (aside from worship) is that from a child towards their parent, for the parent offers the greatest scope of security to his child, virtually everything in life. In the case of marriage, the stated benefits, given the nature of the contract, are reproductive benefits. Therefore, the wife has a duty to her husband, by Sharia, to fulfill his sexual needs & all that these entail, within what is beneficial & reasonable, & as long as these do not go against her faith or bring harm or hardship to herself.


#20
RationalMadman
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@Yassine
You literally just said a series of lies. Muhammad in the Hadith glorifies honor killings and it's in no shape or form ruled out in the Qur'an so... You can pretend it's a western invention but even if that were true, the West has evolved and civilised, Sharia cultures clearly haven't.

Brutal homophobia, sexism and basically everything-weird-phobia takes place in their societies. Anything remotely outside of the norm is shunned and can get you beaten the shit out of for daring to advocate for. I'd be beaten up if I said this in a Sharia nation in any remotely public manner.