Do grades determine your intelligence?

Author: drlebronski

Posts

Total: 91
Topic's author
#1
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9

Poor grades do not mean that you are “not smart”, and for similar reasons, having a high IQ does not mean that you “are smart”. Being smart can assist you in getting good grades, but it’s not as simple as that.


Your grades do not reflect your intelligence. 
You can be the most intelligent person in the world and still fail a test.
Furthermore emotion plays a very big role in how you do on tests or exams.
If you are depressed or someone you know died you are probably going to get a worse grade this doesn't make you stupid.

#2
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
My reasoning has stayed the same.

Grades, are just another method in defining an individual.
A mental handicapped, is going to have difficulty passing the minimum score, thus at it's 'minimum use, an IQ test proves itself in value.

Conscientiousness,
I'd argue that people who score higher grades and take the time to study, Are on the whole, More conscientious of their duties and responsibilities, More reliable in 'doing what is expected of them.
I don't see a problem with including paper grades as a method in grading people, Same as I don't see a problem with using physical tests of fitness, As a method in grading people.
It isn't 'everything, But it is 'something to go on.

Implication,
Receiving an F on a math test, 'is going to imply to me, that an individual is an idiot, 'especially if it keeps happening.
It's not a certainty they're an idiot, maybe they're lazy, maybe they can't read the language the test is printed in, maybe they're nervous,
But implications 'lead to conclusions, are placed with other facts, and lend credence to a hypothesis.

A person could fail to complete a one mile run, It doesn't 'mean they are unhealthy.
Maybe they had a sprain, Or just didn't feel like it,
But it 'is 'a measure.

We don't 'need to judge 'anyone, Based on 'one aspect or action of theirs, But instead the mixture of them over time.

#3
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
it does but it isnt the most significant indicator

smarter=better grades
not smart=poorer grades

there is a correlation but something like an iq test would much more effective in determining intelligence
#4
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
In Sweden, maybe yes.

In China or India, no. At least at the moment.

Many Asian students are brainwashed so they excel all and only the things taught on the textbook to ensure maximum academic test score. They aren't smart.

Then, I suppose Edison wasn't exactly doing well in school, even though he later improved the light bulb.

There are different kinds of intelligence, and grades only determine one of them. Seeing that schools don't even teach you how to pay all kinds of taxes, I don't think financial intelligence can be measured through grades, unless you are in a top university studying economy.
#5
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
I always admired the idea of the Imperial examination - Wikipedia

Though literacy is much more common in the modern world, and education.
Back then, I'd imagine the rarity or lengths one might need go, to 'become educated, was just another sign of their drive, and commitment to being worthy of a position in government.
#6
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@drlebronski
Probably.

But they are not necessarily a definitive indicator of how one will develop.
#7
Nyxified
Nyxified's avatar
Debates: 21
Posts: 224
2
3
9
Nyxified's avatar
Nyxified
2
3
9
-->
@drlebronski
I have ADHD. While it is often portrayed as "Kid cannot focus/can't sit still" for me it was more along the lines of "Kid doesn't have so much as an ounce of dopamine in her brain and will play a video game for 10 hours a day because doing literally anything is so exhausting it's better to just never stand up." As you can imagine, my grades were ~bad~ from time to time, mostly before I got medicated. There were some years I did really good, like K-G5, and then there were years like G8 where, IIRC, I got mostly Cs and Ds. I tended to excel in subjects I liked, getting A's if I tried, but if I disliked a subject, I almost always got a B at best.

If we define intelligence as the ability to process and solve problems, understand concepts, and store information, among other things as well, then it would seem, in my case, my grades were/are fairly unrelated to my intelligence. I was given a significant handicap where executive dysfunction made me not want to do anything and the exhaustion made it feel like my brain was fogged every time I tried to do homework or study, and yet I still didn't fail a class.

How many students are out there that get As because they work insanely hard and how many students are out there that get Bs when they hardly do more than show up to class? I can name a few, and their existence proves well enough that grades don't prove intelligence; they loosely prove your productivity and memory at best.
#8
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Smart students can get mediocre grades but at the extreme ends of grades tend to be the dumb at the bottom and smart at the top. In between is a lot of variance though due to limited time and energy to spend on studying and different agendas in students.
#9
MarkWebberFan
MarkWebberFan's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 291
1
2
6
MarkWebberFan's avatar
MarkWebberFan
1
2
6
Nope. I'm guessing you're still a student currently enrolled with an instructor? I have a problem with terrible instructors. Terrible instructors exist. Grades are irrelevant so long as they exist. The class is only as good as the instructor makes it. 
#10
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Intelligence_06
There are different kinds of intelligence, and grades only determine one of them.
Intelligence is academically denoted as the 'g' factor, and that's the only 'type' of intelligence I've seen defended.

Do you have evidence/proof of other types of intelligence?

Seeing that schools don't even teach you how to pay all kinds of taxes. I don't think financial intelligence can be measured through grades, unless you are in a top university studying economy.
This isn't 'financial intelligence' any more than it is just the product of intelligence (i.e. learning to become financially literate). Since, 'financial intelligence' is covered by 'intelligence' (in regards to learning it), this distinction from intelligence' is arbitrary and unsupported. 


#11
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@MarkWebberFan
The class is only as good as the instructor makes it. 
How do you define a "terrible" and "good" instructor?
#12
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Nyxified
Yes, ADHD has one of the strongest negative effects (-0.90), in regards to educational achievement. It has a stronger negative impact than: Lack of sleep (-0.05), Student feeling disliked (-0.19), Depression (-0.36), Boredom (-0.49) and even deafness (-0.61) 2018-updated-hattie-ranking-hatties-list-of-influences-effect-sizes-achievement-rangliste.png (826×5604) (visible-learning.org)
#13
MarkWebberFan
MarkWebberFan's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 291
1
2
6
MarkWebberFan's avatar
MarkWebberFan
1
2
6
-->
@Mesmer
I think a good instructor lives in the language of the learner. She knows what skills are required to adequately stimulate the class at any given moment. She equally prioritizes both research and teaching. For example, I had a philosophy professor who often teaches with a strong passion. None in the class dared to mention to him that class was supposed to end 5-10 minutes ago because the class really wants to hear more from him. 

I think a terrible instructor is the exact opposite of what I just said. I still believe it takes a lot of effort to stimulate my attention adequately. I appreciate those that do so effectively. However, I've had terrible instructors where they make no effort at all. Some even played podcasts. My go-to interaction as a student is to leave the class right away. If you don't care to teach properly, then I don't care to leave politely. I'll leave in the middle of the class session without caring whether it's rude or disruptive.

#14
Nyxified
Nyxified's avatar
Debates: 21
Posts: 224
2
3
9
Nyxified's avatar
Nyxified
2
3
9
-->
@Mesmer
Thank you for giving this source. I wasn't aware of this until now, so I sincerely appreciate it!
#15
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
Somebody is not motivated. It’s either the teacher or the student, or both, and that says nothing about latent intelligence.
#16
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@MarkWebberFan
I think a good instructor lives in the language of the learner. She knows what skills are required to adequately stimulate the class at any given moment. She equally prioritizes both research and teaching. For example, I had a philosophy professor who often teaches with a strong passion. None in the class dared to mention to him that class was supposed to end 5-10 minutes ago because the class really wants to hear more from him. 

I think a terrible instructor is the exact opposite of what I just said. I still believe it takes a lot of effort to stimulate my attention adequately. I appreciate those that do so effectively. However, I've had terrible instructors where they make no effort at all. Some even played podcasts. My go-to interaction as a student is to leave the class right away. If you don't care to teach properly, then I don't care to leave politely. I'll leave in the middle of the class session without caring whether it's rude or disruptive.
I largely agree with everything you wrote here.

The only point I'd question is whether the passionate teacher is actually being effective. If he's lecturing the whole/most/half the time, he's not being effective, because there is a whole host of student-centric impacts (feedback, self-scoring etc.) that are not being engaged. He might be interesting to listen to, and there is certainly time for direct instruction, but that doesn't mean the students are learning as much as they could.


#17
MarkWebberFan
MarkWebberFan's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 291
1
2
6
MarkWebberFan's avatar
MarkWebberFan
1
2
6
-->
@Mesmer
Well, if my instructor likes to talk about irrelevant life stories, then I'd call that lazy. Imho, effective teaching requires that they prepare for their classes and although instructors don't have infinite time, you'd be surprised by how much preparation helps. My professor never plans things in his entire life but he prepares well for his classes by adding outside sources. He'll joke about how North Korea plans to bomb Singapore while demonstrating the ethics of self-control. Is it the most effective? Probably not because the illustration he made bears little relevance to the topic. But does it retain class attention? Yes it does.

I'd choose an entertaining instructor over a strict, ruthless instructor. I don't want to listen to 'fear-me' words like "Class, you have one week to study german. Otherwise, you'll fail the module on Kant". Granted, that sounds like the most effective way to teach because her word is now law and any future exercise she gives to the class will likely fulfill the student-centric impacts you just mentioned. However, I'd still go with my ineffective, entertaining instructor. My opinion.
#18
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@drlebronski
Poor grades do not mean that you are “not smart”, and for similar reasons, having a high IQ does not mean that you “are smart”. Being smart can assist you in getting good grades, but it’s not as simple as that.
I.Q. is a proxy for intelligence, specifically the 'g' factor. If you have a high I.Q., your 'g' factor (i.e. intelligence), due to extremely heavy correlation, is extremely likely to be high. In other words, it's not that having a high I.Q. makes you highly intelligent, but having a high I.Q. makes it extremely likely that you are highly intelligent.

With the above in mind, I.Q. correlates with SAT results (a graded test) at 0.86, which is almost what I.Q. correlates with itself (0.88). Due to I.Q. correlating with itself at roughly 0.88, this number takes into consideration moods, apathy and other factors which could influence your ability to perform on an I.Q. test. The fact SAT results correlate with I.Q. at almost this number, tells us that yes, I.Q. does not wholly determine grades, but it does determine most of your grades. BCUzler.png (423×377) (imgur.com) taken from:  IQs of Races in the United States – The Alternative Hypothesis 

Furthermore emotion plays a very big role in how you do on tests or exams.
If you are depressed or someone you know died you are probably going to get a worse grade this doesn't make you stupid.
This is a worthwhile caveat, as I showed with the Hattie (2018) study I cited responding to other people 2018-updated-hattie-ranking-hatties-list-of-influences-effect-sizes-achievement-rangliste.png (826×5604) (visible-learning.org) Depression or having a traumatic life experience does have a significant impact on academic performance.

However, the 0.86 correlation has this fact built into it, and given that not everyone is experiencing depression or traumatic life experiences when they take a test, we can see that I.Q. (a proxy for intelligence) does largely impact your grades, on average.

#19
MarkWebberFan
MarkWebberFan's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 291
1
2
6
MarkWebberFan's avatar
MarkWebberFan
1
2
6
-->
@fauxlaw
...that says nothing about latent intelligence.
Good point. Never thought of that before.
#20
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@MarkWebberFan
Yes. Einstein, as a child student failing math is a good example. Either he was not motivated to learn, then or his teacher[s] failed miserably to motivate. Either way, he obviously had sufficient latent intelligence; more than most of us. Good thing it ended up being tapped.
#21
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,591
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@fauxlaw
Einstein had trouble making friends and didn't excel in school. There's even a persistent, unfounded rumor that he flunked math in the fourth grade. The truth is, Einstein seemed to relish problem solving, and little else. He loathed the busy work of a typical school day and dropped out when he was 15.
After Einstein left school in Munich, he tried to enter college in Zurich, but flunked the entrance exam. That's where the myth that he failed math seems to most powerfully originate. While it's true Einstein failed the exam, he didn't fail the math portion. He did, however, bomb the botany, zoology and language sections.
Always a persistent -- if not successful -- student, Einstein hit the books, took the exam again and passed. Still, he remained a lackluster student throughout college. He skipped classes and angered professors because he preferred to study on his own. Einstein even had trouble getting a job after graduation because at least one professor wrote a scathing "recommendation" letter. In the end, a family friend stepped in and secured Einstein a desk job at the Swiss patent office.
#22
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@FLRW
I know the history of Einstein, thanks. My father, as a PhD student at Yale, joined a small group from Yale to go to Princeton to meet him and discuss his work in 1939 [as if any of them had any insights for Einstein!], ten years before I was born. I've been regaled with stories of that four-day meeting for most of my life. Einstein, himself, related stories of his education, mostly being bored with what was taught, and my dad was never sure where reality ended and fantasy began. He thought Einstein was merely trying to relate to people on their level. My father's lasting impression was that Einstein was the loneliest man in the world for lack of anyone who could converse with him at his level. Genius has its disappointments

21 days later

#23
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
The grading system itself is essentially flawed from the start. I don't believe a letter grade should determine how smart you are. Kids can actively not do homework but do well on a test and get a B in the class while some do all the homework and do mildly good on tests and somehow get a B as well. And don't get me started on finals. Finals being a certain percentage of your grade is ultimately bullshit lol. If you do no work but cram for a final you can take your high B to a low A. I don't believe grade represent how smart you are, but how much effort you put in.

I didn't have many bad grades in high school besides my science classes. Don't care enough for science and hated lots of my teachers besides Biology (which I had the highest grade in for science). My lowest grade was during the pandemic with Physics, bad teacher with a shitty grading system that made no sense. Had a 72 in the class and decided to pass fail it since I have no interest in pursuing science as a major. However with classes like history which came easy and which I liked, I easily got a 91 and even in honors I got a 90. In math, while I did a B in Geometry, I got As in Algebra, Alg 2, and Pre-Calc. Not a lover of math but liked it and put effort in to do well. 

To put it simply, grades measure your effort and not how smart you are. I think there's no feasible method to do such a task

128 days later

#24
typicalsypnosis
typicalsypnosis's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1
0
0
4
typicalsypnosis's avatar
typicalsypnosis
0
0
4
The notion that grades are an accurate representation of your intelligence is ridiculous. 

Exams and tests are stressful, and for any kid wanting to do well there can be a lot of anxiety around this. This built up worry and tension can cause lack of concentration and will lead to a poor performance. Many kids also have a lot of pressure from parents to do well. 

Grades are usually determined from a single test. There are many factors that could affect the grade. For example, the situation at home. A kid may have parents who were up late fighting and the kid didn't get enough sleep. A kid might lack the resources and support that they need to properly study and prepare for a test. 

Furthermore, on the day of the test there could be many reasons why performance is impacted, such as sickness, being undernourished, dehydrated, tired, anxious etc. 

I am an all round good student who usually achieves good grades. I study lots and perform well most of the time. But even in instances where I have studied and prepared for the test, on the day it doesn't always go as planned and some grades are not a good representation of my ability. 


#25
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Good grades are an indicator of how well you are able to follow orders. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

The measure of intelligence is what you can provide to society, not what you can provide to promote a building made of mold and plaster.
#26
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
Einstein had poor grades.
#27
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@ethang5
Source?
#28
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,164
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
"Do grades determine your intelligence?" No but hell no it doesn't. 
#29
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Intelligence_06
Google his biography.
#30
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,591
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
There is no record of Einstein flunking or ever getting low marks in math. Albert Einstein was an all-around good student with exceptional grades in math and science, according to the biography written by Albrecht Folsing. The statement that Einstein was a poor student is pure myth.