CRT Breaks Everything

Author: Fruit_Inspector

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3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
That is interesting info about the census. And it sounds like you are not necessarily a fan of viewing all of life through the lens of race then?
Well, "race" is, at its very best, "poorly defined".

What everybody seems so "concerned" about is much more precisely "skin-tone".

The "self-definition" and "passing-as" conflict seems virtually indistinguishable from the "gender-identity" kerfuffle.

The same exact questions should be asked about BOTH and the same exact "answers" apply equally.
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@Theweakeredge
whenever you are being so obviously dishonest
This seems to be your central theme.

Whenever you encounter a potential miscommunication, your instinctive "defense".
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@Lemming
Difference in perception, isn't the same as a difference in individual honesty, is my opinion.
Well stated.
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@Fruit_Inspector
"Racism" seems like a "broad-brush" fallacy.

No "more" and no "less" "evil" than any other logical fallacy.
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@Fruit_Inspector
to pretend that skin tone is a primary indicator of trustworthiness is the very definition of a BROAD BRUSH
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@Fruit_Inspector
If, as the author of the article states, the earliest ancestors to humans were dark-skinned Africans, then how is it false to say that dark-skinned Africans are the closest human descendants to monkeys?
Well no not necessarily. Evolution doesn’t just stop, just because early humans were dark skinned and modern day Africans are dark skinned doesn’t mean that Africans are genetically closer because they never stopped evolving. The genetics of Africans could actually be further from our ancestors than Europeans, whose to say? But I do agree with you that if it turned out, say, Asian people are the most genetically similar to cro magnons or whatever it would matter and wouldn’t be racist to point that out in a scientific context (using it to make fun of people obviously would be) 

As to your article yeah it’s very dumb. You see this kind of thing with portrayals of Jesus too. Every culture makes Jesus look like someone from their culture. It’s just a natural and normal thing to do. If that’s racist, so much of human psychology is racist that we may as well scratch the whole “racism is the root of all evil” idea and start over. 

I want to unmask the lie that evolution denial is about religion and recognize that at its core, it is a form of white supremacy that perpetuates segregation and violence against Black bodies.
Lmao people can and have used anything to justify racism-religion, history, science, politics. Evolution has 1000% been used to justify racism. Has the author never heard of scientific racism? This might be a troll article, idk. Sometimes I think these people need to just be told to shut the fuck up
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@Theweakeredge
see that's the difference - you make claims of dishonesty, I used ignorance as a tool
Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, your intention was to bait me into arguing a point that was off topic - a point that you now admit misrepresented my position? And your deception in getting me to do this was done in order to show how dishonest I am? Was the rudeness and demeaning language also a part of this deception, or was that genuine?
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The article reads like a 2000s internet atheist who misses the glory days of btfoing creationists online trying and failing to insert her obsession into the current conversation 

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@thett3
Well I'm glad we agree about the bad argumentation of the article. And the reason I wanted to highlight it is to show that even a publication like Scientific American is allowing the culture war to seep into its pages. It's easy for people to just laugh off ridiculous assertions like the ones made by the author, but they stem from a deeper worldview that I believe is one of the primary factors in dividing America right now.

CRT is being taught in universities across the country, and is now set to be enshrined in k-12 education. Articles like this are the result of that kind of indoctrination.
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@Fruit_Inspector
yeah the race essentialism is very, very bad and needs to be stopped. I think that no matter what it flames out soon because it’s just such a miserable way to live. But who knows, I don’t want to predict the future. Ten years ago I definitely wouldn’t have predicted that this was coming 

It always blows my mind to think back to when I was growing up how normal everything was. I couldn’t have even imagine what was to come. Feels like the memories of a different person 
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@Fruit_Inspector
Don’t let him get to you. Being prickly in the forums is kinda his thing, just roll your eyes and let it slide 
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@Fruit_Inspector
Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, your intention was to bait me into arguing a point that was off topic - a point that you now admit misrepresented my position? And your deception in getting me to do this was done in order to show how dishonest I am? Was the rudeness and demeaning language also a part of this deception, or was that genuine?
Well stated.
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@thett3
yeah the race essentialism is very, very bad and needs to be stopped.
It's also worth noting that the usage of "white people" or a "white race" for a large group of mainly or exclusively European populations, defined by their light skin, among other physical characteristics, and contrasting with "black", "red", "brown", "yellow", and other "colored" people or "persons of color", originated in the 17th century. Prior to this, Europeans also described people from East Asia as being "white". It was only during the 19th century that this vague category was transformed in a pseudo-scientific system of race and skin color relations. [**]

White Americans are Americans who identify as and are perceived to be white people. [**]

"identify as" - - there is no "blood test" - - it's pure, unfiltered "SELF-DEFINITION"

The characterization of Middle Eastern and North African Americans as white has been a matter of controversy. In the early 20th century, there were a number of cases where people of Arab descent were denied entry into the United States or deported, because they were characterized as nonwhite.[21] In 1944, the law changed, and Middle Eastern and North African peoples were granted white status. In 2015, the US Census endorsed the idea of creating a separate racial category for Middle Eastern and North African Americans in the 2020 Census, but this plan was discarded when the Trump Administration came to power.

In cases where individuals do not self-identify, the U.S. census parameters for race give each national origin a racial value.
Additionally, people who reported Muslim (or a sect of Islam such as Shi'ite or Sunni), Jewish, Zoroastrian, or Caucasian as their "race" in the "Some other race" section, without noting a country of origin, are automatically tallied as White.[22] The US Census considers the write-in response of "Caucasian" or "Aryan" to be a synonym for White in their ancestry code listing.[23]

Middle Eastern and North African peoples were granted white status.
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@Fruit_Inspector
No - now you aren't listening at all... and you were the one who brought it up! Also.. .still wasn't wrong, they didn't mention that, at all, it was implied if you were following along. Again, if you read enough to understand that, then you knew the context and still tried to dishonestly frame it - so I accidentally misrepresented you - though I would have done that regardless - to get you to admit that you were dishonest. 

Again, I already explained this, the fact that you are acting like you don't get it is further proof of my point. 

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@Theweakeredge
so I accidentally misrepresented you - though I would have done that regardless - to get you to admit that you were dishonest.  
Here was the first definition of dishonesty that came up:
"deceitfulness shown in someone's character or behavior."

So again - and I really want to make sure I'm understanding you right - your admitted deceitfulness is morally acceptable, and my alleged deceitfulness is morally wrong?
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lol i like how almost every conservative frames critical race theory as "all white people are bad and everything is racist" How about you go read a book by an actual critical race theorist instead of sticking on to robin diangelo who isn't a critical race theorist just a stupid advocate of it.
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@drlebronski
Is this why people on NPR and the internet have been talking about "systemic racism" over the last year or two?



  
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@drlebronski
"CRT recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color. CRT also rejects the traditions of liberalism and meritocracy. Legal discourse says that the law is neutral and colorblind, however, CRT challenges this legal “truth” by examining liberalism and meritocracy as a vehicle for self-interest, power, and privilege."
-UCLA School of Public Affairs
All white people benefit from white privilege at the expense of other races, whether they admit it or not. And while the phrase "everything is racist" could be viewed as an oversimplified generalization, CRT is about examining society looking for any racial disparities which serve as "proof" that systemic racism exists. So the reason people say "everything is racist" is because you can examine anything - even the ratio of trees in white and black neighborhoods - and point to it as a form of systemic racism. These "proofs" are outcomes of power structures created to benefit white people.

Please explain how this is not concurrent with Critical Race Theory in an American context? Is UCLA just as wrong as DiAngelo apparently is?
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@Fruit_Inspector
All white people benefit from white privilege at the expense of other races, whether they admit it or not. And while the phrase "everything is racist" could be viewed as an oversimplified generalization, CRT is about examining society looking for any racial disparities which serve as "proof" that systemic racism exists. So the reason people say "everything is racist" is because you can examine anything - even the ratio of trees in white and black neighborhoods - and point to it as a form of systemic racism. These "proofs" are outcomes of power structures created to benefit white people.

Please explain how this is not concurrent with Critical Race Theory in an American context? Is UCLA just as wrong as DiAngelo apparently is?
THE FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTION ERROR MAKES "RACISM" OBSOLETE
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Dude you clearly have no idea what your talking about.
CRT has evidence to back up their claims for example "why are black people more likely to end up in poor neighborhood"
Because of slavery and segregation.  Slavery and segregation ended but the effects of it still last. If you shoot someones leg your going to win the race 10 years later your still probably going to win it has lasting effects.
Yes white privilege exists if you are white your chances of getting pulled over without reason are significantly lower. I am white my chances of getting pulled over are significantly lower which is a fact if you would like the study ask. you clearly have done little research. again how about you READ A BOOK. white privilege doesn't make you a racist. you really need to look into it more.

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@drlebronski
Yes white privilege exists if you are white your chances of getting pulled over without reason are significantly lower.
HOW WOULD YOU "FIX" THIS "PROBLEM" ?
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@3RU7AL
I would take it even a step further to say that the push to change the very definition of "racism" makes racism obsolete. Merriam-Webster added a definition in 2020 (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism)

"the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another"

This is fundamentally different from the traditional definition of racism they still include:

"a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

To put it another way, the new definition makes the old one obsolete. Traditional racism is now justified if it is done to combat systemic racism.
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@Fruit_Inspector
If a person has a tribalistic bent for their family, or clan, or nation. It 'really doesn't matter if the other guy's smarter, or stronger, what matters to someone with such a bent, is whether their 'own people can survive, or better thrive. Defeat their enemies, even if superior.

If we focus on 'groups, as worthy of interest, how is the racist wrong for focusing on his 'own group, as worthy of interest?

The point I mean is, if different groups are recognized to exist, and helping one group will 'not help other groups, assuming one believes in a zero sum game.
For example, the 'ratio of groups to one another, in a percentage, in a country.
Well, if groups can be identified as being 'singular to themselves, one can assume their interests are as well.
If one chooses to ignore race, and decide we'll all be interbred into a breed, then there's little problem.
But if 'interests are recognized, races 'clarified. . . 'well.

Though maybe it's just nonsensical wandering thought on my part.



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@drlebronski
You keep telling me about how I am misrepresenting "actual" Critical Race Theorists, and I need to read books by Critical Race Theorists, but you have yet to provide any citations from Critical Race Theorists about what CRT is and why I am misrepresenting it. Maybe you could quote the Frankfurt School, Delgado, Bell, Crenshaw, or others who crafted and modified CRT to make it more clear for me where I am mistaken.
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@drlebronski
Yes white privilege exists if you are white your chances of getting pulled over without reason are significantly lower. I am white my chances of getting pulled over are significantly lower which is a fact if you would like the study ask.
Would you mind sending me that/linking it here?
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@thett3
Using information obtained through public record requests, the Stanford Open Policing Project examined almost 100 million traffic stops conducted from 2011 to 2017 across 21 state patrol agencies, including California, Illinois, New York and Texas, and 29 municipal police departments, including New Orleans, Philadelphia, San Francisco and St. Paul, Minnesota.
The results show that police stopped and searched black and Latino drivers on the basis of less evidence than used in stopping white drivers, who are searched less often but are more likely to be found with illegal items. The study does not set out to conclude whether officers knowingly engaged in racial discrimination, but uses a more nuanced analysis of traffic stop data to infer that race is a factor when people are pulled over — and that it's occuring across the country.
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@FLRW
Thanks, very interesting paper website although I don't think you accurately represented their findings which were very nuanced. I went to the findings tab and gave it a read. The paper didn't analyze bias in stop rates which is almost impossible unless we can somehow control for driving behavior. 

They did examine searches, and concluded:

In our data, the success rate of searches (or the hit rate) is generally lower for Hispanic drivers compared to white drivers; so the outcome test indicates Hispanic drivers face discrimination. For black drivers, search hit rates are typically in line with those of white drivers, indicating an absence of discrimination.
I would argue this is more likely to mean that the police are more heavy-handed in areas with large hispanic population than proof of bias, but who knows. The way they concluded there was discrimination was through the application of a "threshold test." I don't think it was explained how they found the thresholds very well at all on the site, so I went to the link they provided for their paper and found it here: https://5harad.com/papers/threshold-test.pdf. A lot of it is above my head. If we were debating instead of having a friendly discussion I would dig into this more, but I will just say that this isn't very compelling to me at all. If there really was widespread systemic discrimination I don't think you'd need to use statistical modeling with who knows how many assumptions to tease it out, the raw numbers would do the job for you. The fact that the police have a similar success rate in finding drugs/weapons/whatever when searching black people and white people suggests VERY strongly to me that the police on aggregate apply the same standards to search someone. 
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@Fruit_Inspector
"the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another"
I mean, really, why else would anyone systematically oppress people based on their skin-tone if it wasn't to their own advantage ?
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@FLRW
The results show that police stopped and searched black and Latino drivers on the basis of less evidence than used in stopping white drivers, who are searched less often but are more likely to be found with illegal items.
THE FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTION ERROR
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@thett3
If there really was widespread systemic discrimination I don't think you'd need to use statistical modeling with who knows how many assumptions to tease it out, the raw numbers would do the job for you.
THE FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTION ERROR