Student Says Allah Instead of God in Pledge of Allegiance

Author: Reece101

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SkepticalOne
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@Dr.Franklin
the fathers reconginaed the importance of Christianity

Ok, so let track this for a second. First you claimed 'the Christian god was mentioned in the Constitution". When this was shown to be in error, you amended your claim to 'the Christian god was mentioned in the Declaration'. Now that this has been shown wrong, you move the goalposts once again to 'the founders recognized the importance of Christianity'. What will your next 'concession by new claim' be? You're not being an honest interlocutor.

As to your new claim,  some of the founders were Christian, some were not. This is not important.  What matters is that the final product of their work, the Constitution, did not convey Christianity as of any importance moreso than any other religious view. In fact, it established that the power of the government comes from people, not any god - that isn't a Judeo-Christian principle. It established that every man (person) is equal - again that isn't a Judeo-Christian principle. I could go on and on. Given that you will inevitably abandoned yet another failed claim, its not worth the effort. Suffice to say, the Constitution is not built on Judeo-Christian principles. 


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@SkepticalOne
no it didint, it recongized CHristianity as the religion of America
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@Dr.Franklin
You're "nu huh" has been noted. Being the only reasoned arguments in this conversation, my points stand.
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@fauxlaw
I think it would seem to be some sort of reference to the Qur'an, which is properly rendered in Arabic.
You mean like the Holy Bible should only be properly rendered in Hebrew and Greek?
I'd be reluctant to say that Muslims perceive validity of the Qur'an as Christians to the books of the Old and New Testament.  For example, many Christians express that works within their church were inspired by God, and I've talked to Muslims who believe the Qur'an to have been recited directly from a messenger of God.  A multitude of Muslims alive today have literally committed the Qur'an to memory.

This statement has little to do with the Holy Bible or what I think should be.  It pertains to Islamic practices of recitation.






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Assuming that the reference to god is going to stay part of the pledge, I think that it is important to note that the pledge is written and recited in English. The use of an Arabic word (or any language's version of any word in the pledge) is unnecessary. And that's if I (naively?) assume that the use of this particular Arabic word is an innocent one, referring to the same generalized god concept and not, by dint of its use in Islam, to a specific reference to one local version of that concept.
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@SkepticalOne
no it clearly does not, i have provided evidence showing that Christianity is the true religion of america
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@Conway
I have read the Q'ran several times. I find much truth in it, but I also disagree with some, but then, I disagree with some that I read in the Bible, as well.
SkepticalOne
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@Dr.Franklin
no it clearly does not, i have provided evidence showing that Christianity is the true religion of america
Assertion is not evidence.
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@SkepticalOne
im right
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@Dr.Franklin
...perfect example of assertion. XD
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@SkepticalOne
i already proved it
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@Dr.Franklin
i already proved it
If you say so - I obviously missed it.
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@SkepticalOne
indeed you did
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@Dr.Franklin
indeed you did
Feel free to point it out. While you're at it, feel free to address my refutation of your position as well.

My prediction is you will make another assertion (or point to one you've previously made) while continuing to ignore the case against your view.  
FLRW
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@Dr.Franklin
Adams equates morality with his personal religious beliefs, which boil down to being “just and good.”
Adams dismissed works of formal religious philosophy and theology as “romances” and equates them to fairy tales.
Adam's correspondent Jefferson, of course, was a celebrated Deist who was so disdainful of religion that he famously cut much of the text out of his personal New Testament.
He and Adams shared very similar sentiment.
Anyone looking to claim a founding father as sympathetic to the idea that the United States was founded as a Christian nation had best look beyond Adams.
He was not sympathetic, despite efforts to quote mine him and distort his intentions.

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@FLRW
the fathers uderstood the importance of Christianity
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@SkepticalOne
why did you ignore evidence
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@oromagi
->@oromagi
Any law making people recite an affirmation of a single, present deity is a clear violation of the First Amendment.  Better to toss that silly pledge written by a newspaper out the window and if any pledge seems necessary, write one that adheres more closely to the spirit of our Constitution.
The words "under God" were added to the pledge of allegiance during the Cold War to distinguish the United States from the Soviet Union.  It was, oddly enough, during that same time that the United States' closest alliances with the Muslim world were formed.  

The idea was, from the Capitol to the CIA, that the Christian West and Muslim East shared a common opposition to godless, atheistic communism that was as destructive to Christianity as it was to Islam.  As "men of the book," their interests in preventing their religion from being driven from this earth was shared and existential.  That was at least the thinking in Washington, Riyadh and Tehran at the time.  Strange to conceive of all three as allies now, but once we were all on the same team.  
While I'd agree that offering counterpoint to the state atheism of the Communist Bloc  was certainly one argument favoring the addition, I'm skeptical that the Daughters of the American Revolution were thinking about their fellowship with the Muslim world when they awarded Louis Bowman for coming up with the notion.  I'm sure Eisenhower had the bigger picture in mind but made no mention of the Sons of Ishmael at the 1954 ceremony signing the "under God" bill into law:
 
"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource, in peace or in war."
I don't see what your point is.  To the extent you're making an argument about what people subjectively meant when they said "God," I've addressed that above.  Further, to the extent you're trying to argue that the "Daughters of the American Revolution" are the sole speakers whose understanding of "God" matters, it's unclear why.  

We're a country of more than 300 million people, after all.   That one person means one thing when they say "God" in the pledge, does not mean that their subjectively intended meaning generalizes to the other 300 million plus of us.  I am trying to avoid straw-manning your point, but your argument really lends itself to that kind of caricature.  

the United States does not compel its citizens' allegiance any more than it compels recitation of any pledge. 
Except the presidential oath of office and Article IV of the Constitution which requires that members of Congress, state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers are to be bound by oath to uphold the Constitution and all branches of the US military likewise require the same oath.  By any road, an oath is a solemn pledge but of course all such offices are held voluntarily (except drafted soldiers which we haven't done since Vietnam).
Again, I don't see what your point is.  I said the United States does not compel its citizens' allegiance any more than it compels recitation of any pledge --- which is the case. 

You are talking about a presidential oath of office, or other oaths to officiate a person's assuming an elected (or appointed) position.  Those peoples' assuming those roles are done so on a voluntary basis; not out of compulsion.  The oath they take is likewise voluntary.   Further, Ilhan Omar used a Koran for her ceremonial swearing-in to Congress.  I'm sure others have as well, or other religious/significant books/publications.  So it is not as if the Bible is the only work of scripture suitable for that purpose.  

So your argument in which you endeavor to conflate the pledge and an oath of office is unavailing.  They are qualitatively different things, just as an elected official is not merely a citizen.  

You do not have to say the pledge.  Laws requiring any compelled speech are themselves unconstitutional, not for violating the establishment or free exercise clauses; but for intruding onto the domain of free thought (i.e., the principle behind each of the rights protected by the First Amendment).  So your point is moot.  There is no law compelling anyone to recite the pledge of allegiance.  You can do it.  Or not.  It is your choice.  The government cannot compel you to do otherwise.  
Well, that has not always been true. 
What is your point?  Also, there are two better cases you could have pointed to relevant to the "under God" language in the pledge.  Brownie points if you can find them.  

In any event, you cannot be compelled to recite the pledge.  Nor can you be compelled to recite the pledge in any particular way, by the force of government.  That's not how things work in this country. 

So while I'd agree generally that the govt. does not compel the pledge, I'd hardly call my point, which was that pledging to flags was silly and the whole thing needs a rewrite, moot.
You're free to decline to participate in any pledge recitation.  Your subjective objection to particular language in the pledge's current version is no basis to rewrite it.  I don't think there's a single concern as to the current version I haven't addressed.  Though if you don't feel like I have, let me know. 

I assume you're going to have a hard time doing so, however, since you've changed the topic a couple of different times now. 

Off topic, I'm also a little skeptical about placing Washington and Tehran on the same team in in 1954, considering the CIA's 1953 overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister to prevent oil nationalization.  I mean, I'm sure the Shah and the clerics were relatively pro-US in 1954 but can we really say that the people of Tehran were our friends after we imprisoned  Time's Man of the Year 1951 and the new govt was still executing his ministers?
That is presumably because you are familiar with exactly two events in the history of US-Iranian relations, the first taking place in 1953 and the second in 1979.  Of course, there's more to the story than just the alleged coup in which Mossadegh was (justifiably) removed from power and the (calamitous, preventable and inexcusable) so called "Iranian Revolution."  

It turns out that there's a long history of strong bilateral relations with Iran and the United States dating back to the 19th century.  Though I'll focus only on some of the more interesting highlights, such as when Iranian constitutional reformers drew inspiration from the United States in forming the Iranian constitutional movement in the early 20th century.  Or when the United States and Iran established trade relations shortly after that time, leading to one of the most significant periods of growth Iran's economy would experience since the end of the Persian Empire.  

We might also recall the goodwill generated between Iran and the United States during the Wilson years.  As you may not have been aware, England was during that time undertaking to make Iran a British Protectorate.  Wilson was having none of that, to the point that pro-American riots against the British were seen in Tehran's streets in 1919.   Until World War II, relations between Iran and the United States remained cordial. As a result, many Iranians sympathetic to the Persian Constitutional Revolution came to view the US as a "third force" in their struggle to expel British and Russian dominance in Persian affairs. American industrial and business leaders were supportive of Iran's drive to modernize its economy and to expel British and Russian influence from the country.

To give you some idea of how closely Iran was allied with the United States and Western powers in general, consider what it meant that in 1943 the United States, England and Soviet Union held a strategy conference that would eventually mark a turning point in WWII, the Allies' victory and the United Nations' formation.  The Tehran Conference not only reaffirmed the allies, general, and the United States' specific alliance with Iran at that time; but served as the context in which the broad contours of the United Nations were first articulated between Stalin and Roosevelt. 

At the end of WWII, Iran was arguably the United States' strongest ally in the region.  The plan, shortly after Israel's formation in its current iteration, was for the United States to triangulate power projection through both Iran and Israel; to ensure peace throughout the Middle East and the Muslim World in general.  While, of course, preventing a British or other monopoly forming on global oil supplies.  Of course that did not last long, due in large part to Mossadegh's election and the Shah's lack of aptitude in dealing with that problem. 

 People often do not appreciate how close the United States and Iran once were, because they only know the post-1979 Iran we all regard with trepidation and animosity.  Or whatever version leftists want to blame the CIA for creating, that version of which is mostly complete nonsense.  Though this context is not really relevant to the question, it's something I care about a lot.  It's part of why I hate Jimmy Carter more than almost any other president, and why I blame him even more than Sykes Picot for screwing up the Middle East.  He failed to prevent the disaster that was 1979, even though he had no shortage of warning it was coming.  As far as I am concerned, that is the single most egregious foreign policy disaster the United States had made since before WWII.  It is a loss that continues to haunt us, so many decades later.  

A tragedy of tragedies, to be sure.