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3RU7AL
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@Athias
your home is your castle

do what you wish in your own home

do what you think is best with your own family in your own home

nepotism only applies to businesses, and more specifically to management positions and executives
How is the logic any different?
public sphere requires regulation

private sphere is private

it's a matter of scope
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@Athias
EQUALITY = PROVABLY FAIR

EQUALITY = NO "HEAD-STARTS"

NO GIFTS

NO INHERITANCE

NO NEPOTISM

NO CHEATING
Out of curiosity, what are some advantages for which you'd be on board?
parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
3RU7AL
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@Athias
OLIGARCHY IS THE ANTITHESIS OF ANARCHY

OLIGARCHY IS THE INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE OF NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE
Assuming of course that we're focused on the concentration of wealth. And there will always be concentration where the most commerce is generated, nepotism + inheritance notwithstanding. (Yes even trust-fund babies learn how to maintain their wealth given that wealth too is finite.)
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?

and for the record, any "self-made" oligarchs that might arise from a provably-fair game, that could not gift their assets to their friends and or relatives would be 100% "acceptable".
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL

parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage
So in your dystopia, a person with bad parents is just fucked, right?

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage
So in your dystopia, a person with bad schools is just fucked, right?

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
So in your dystopia, a person with bad lifestyle choices is just fucked, right?

are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?

Only 8.5% of global high-net-worth individuals were categorized as having completely inherited their wealth

Why on earth are your panties so irredeemably twisted over 8.5% of the super elite oligarchy?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
Is a person's prospective homelessness and starvation a fault of the system?
what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad parents is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad schools is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
So in your dystopia, a person with bad lifestyle choices is just fucked, right?
are you suggesting that your hypothetical system is somehow equipped to "fix" this particular "problem" ?
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL
what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
To protect the public from jealous people (criminals) or jealous nations (invaders) and allow people the freedom to pursue happiness, not engage in equity schemes that reward jealous people while punishing ambitious people...
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?

Only 8.5% of global high-net-worth individuals were categorized as having completely inherited their wealth

Why on earth are your panties so irredeemably twisted over 8.5% of the super elite oligarchy?
well then, you would presumably have ZERO OBJECTIONS to ending NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE.

since it would only affect (according to your own extensive research) a teensy-tiny minority of 32% of the world's wealthiest and most influential individuals.

'World's richest 1% get 82% of the wealth' [**]

The World's Top 26 Billionaires Now Own as Much as the Poorest 3.8 Billion [**]
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
To protect the public from jealous people (criminals) or jealous nations (invaders) and allow people the freedom to pursue happiness, not engage in equity schemes that reward jealous people while punishing ambitious people...
government regulation currently crushes small business and insulates big businesses

single-digit-millionaires are specifically targeted by bigger fish because they don't have enough wealth to properly defend themselves in the current legal climate
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL
'World's richest 1% get 82% of the wealth

So in your dystopia .9% of the people can have 82% of the wealth minus the .1% of the nepotism kids. Great world.

government regulation currently crushes small business and insulates big businesses
Big businesses are jealous of successful competitors.
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
government regulation currently crushes small business and insulates big businesses
Big businesses are jealous of successful competitors.
in your own imagination, who are the current "ambitious and deserving geniuses" ?

where are they all hiding ?
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@3RU7AL
in your own imagination,
Only the incompetent fear and are jealous of the little guy.

who are the current "ambitious and deserving geniuses" ?
the .9% you seem to give a pass to while chasing down the .1% of the nepotism kids.
Athias
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@3RU7AL
please explain how you managed to leap to this ridiculous conclusion
Because modeling jobs require no particularly stringent merits, correct? How different is it that one is born beautiful from one's being born into money?

let's see if we can square this circle

do you believe there should be some rules to govern commerce ?
Yes, privatized rules. That is, the involved parties can determine their participation by the rules they've conceived, and to which they've agreed.

if you do believe there should be some rules to govern commerce, what moral theory
Individualist moral theory.

, and or what primary goal should those rules be aimed at ?
Maintaining the interests of the involved.

public sphere requires regulation

private sphere is private
And management and executive positions are (necessarily) within the public sphere?

parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
On what measure do you base a distinction between a "fair" advantage and an "unfair" advantage? How do the advantages you've list meet that criterion/criteria?

are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?
I wouldn't characterize them as "oligarchs," but yes, there'd still be a concentration of wealth in the absence of nepotism and inheritance.

and for the record, any "self-made" oligarchs that might arise from a provably-fair game, that could not gift their assets to their friends and or relatives would be 100% "acceptable".
And what circumstances would lead to their incapacity to gift their assets?

what do you believe is the primary function of government ?
To be absent.

Athias
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@3RU7AL
HERE'S YOUR PRECIOUS EFFICIENT "FREE-MARKET" IN ACTION,
Explain your contention against that which was described in the video you referenced.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
HERE'S YOUR PRECIOUS EFFICIENT "FREE-MARKET" IN ACTION,
Explain your contention against that which was described in the video you referenced.
I'm not sure how anyone can claim we're "participating" in a "capitalist" economy when a commodity can be so obviously price fixed by the oligarchs.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
please explain how you managed to leap to this ridiculous conclusion
Because modeling jobs require no particularly stringent merits, correct? How different is it that one is born beautiful from one's being born into money?
"Merit" in a modeling job is "looks".

I've never once suggested that every job should be available for every human.

never.

once.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
let's see if we can square this circle

do you believe there should be some rules to govern commerce ?
Yes, privatized rules. That is, the involved parties can determine their participation by the rules they've conceived, and to which they've agreed.
What happens when the "privatized rules" inevitably become insular, raising anti-competitive barriers to entry?

Or do you consider this "not a problem"?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
if you do believe there should be some rules to govern commerce, what moral theory
Individualist moral theory.
How do you propose we protect the individual from the collective?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
, and or what primary goal should those rules be aimed at ?
Maintaining the interests of the involved.
Do those interests include all citizens?
3RU7AL
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@Athias
public sphere requires regulation

private sphere is private
And management and executive positions are (necessarily) within the public sphere?
If your company serves the public, then they are within the public sphere.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
parental focus may give someone an emotional advantage or disadvantage

training and or popular style may give a person a social advantage or disadvantage

personal and or parental and or social priority may give someone an intellectual advantage or disadvantage
On what measure do you base a distinction between a "fair" advantage and an "unfair" advantage? How do the advantages you've list meet that criterion/criteria?
I've been pretty clear on this from the word go.

NO NEPOTISM.

NO INHERITANCE.
3RU7AL
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@Athias
are you suggesting that just as many oligarchs would exist in a world without NEPOTISM + INHERITANCE ?
I wouldn't characterize them as "oligarchs," but yes, there'd still be a concentration of wealth in the absence of nepotism and inheritance.
Please provide your personally preferred definition of "oligarch".
Wylted
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@Athias
I've never endorsed the concept of equality, and I will never endorse the concept of equality because it necessarily undermines individuality--especially if this equality is to be enforced. Neither MRM/MRA/AVfM/MGTOW nor Feminism has a legitimate gripe against the sex whom they've claimed has victimized them. And these movements have done more to sow conflict rather than promote cohesion.

None of those groups really criticize women at all, so no legitimate gripe would be correct. They typically argue that some aspects of feminism are harmful to society, as well as both females and males. 

They do recognize that men are different than women both psychologically and physically.  It's not a statement of superiority though. It's just a recognition of key differences. None of those differences are used to villianize women. Also most of the differences talked about are around sexual dating strategy. 
Athias
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure how anyone can claim we're "participating" in a "capitalist" economy when a commodity can be so obviously price fixed by the oligarchs.
Is this an example of a price fix, or is it simply more lucrative to sell silver on the open market as opposed to the U.S. mint, which would later retract its exaggeration on the "silver shortage"?

"Merit" in a modeling job is "looks".
Which can still be subject to the preferences of their employer, correct?

I've never once suggested that every job should be available for every human.

never.

once.
I'm not suggesting you did. I'm suggesting that there are financial circumstances of which one takes advantage simply by being fortunate--i.e. being born into the "right family" or being born with the "right look."

What happens when the "privatized rules" inevitably become insular, raising anti-competitive barriers to entry?
Privatized rules affect those who are part of the arrangement. They don't have to let a competitor participate in said arrangement. And a competitor can create or seek another arrangement.

How do you propose we protect the individual from the collective?
Sustaining the moral theory.

Do those interests include all citizens?
With respect to their individual interests, yes.

If your company serves the public, then they are within the public sphere.
What is the scope of this public service?

I've been pretty clear on this from the word go.

NO NEPOTISM.

NO INHERITANCE.
Yes you have. So why have you strictly isolated nepotism and inheritance as unfair? Elaborate.

Please provide your personally preferred definition of "oligarch".
"An oligarch is one of the select few people who rule or influence leaders in an oligarchy—a government in which power is held by a select few individuals or a small class of powerful people."


Athias
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@Wylted
None of those groups really criticize women at all, so no legitimate gripe would be correct.
That is incorrect. At best, those "male" groups criticize "females" for being indirectly complicit by not providing a voice against the system which benefits them.

They typically argue that some aspects of feminism are harmful to society, as well as both females and males. 
Yes, they do.

They do recognize that men are different than women both psychologically and physically. It's not a statement of superiority though. It's just a recognition of key differences.
Yes, they make teleological arguments using evolutionary psychology.

None of those differences are used to villianize women. Also most of the differences talked about are around sexual dating strategy. 
I'm not suggesting that these groups are antagonizing women because males and females are sexually dimorphic. I'm suggesting that their gripes, which should be against the State, is misdirected toward females. And they're using that as a pretext to claim victimization. Take MGTOW for example, "Men Going Their Own Way." From whom? And why?

Wylted
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@Athias
I am not ignoring your other statements, just addressing them separately. This is the first

That is incorrect. At best, those "male" groups criticize "females" for being indirectly complicit by not providing a voice against the system which benefits them.

I think we have to separate MRA's from the rest, because MRA's argue for men's rights from a blue pill perspective and advocate for things like battered men's shelters. Something the other groups could care less about. 

Being complicit is understandable. I consider myself redpill, and it's fine for women to be complicit. They benefit more from feminism and in the short term as well. 

I don't see being complicit as a moral failing. If ai were a woman, I would be complicit also. I think the bulk of the criticism from the redpill movements more intellectual leaders, is that men are complicit. For example male SJWs who feminized themselves, somehow thinking that it will make them more attractive to women.

These groups aren't so much activist groups, with the exception of MRAs as they are jus TV a philosophical movement. The redpill is considered amoral, just as understanding how to play the guitar or music theory is amoral. 
Wylted
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@Athias
I'm not suggesting that these groups are antagonizing women because males and females are sexually dimorphic. I'm suggesting that their gripes, which should be against the State, is misdirected toward females. And they're using that as a pretext to claim victimization. Take MGTOW for example, "Men Going Their Own Way." From whom? And why?
They advocate for men to stop victimizing themselves.

Men Going their own way is just men who wish to remain single, not necessarily sexless though some do refrain from sex. 

As I said before, there  is no gripes about women other than maybe some sexist jokes or banter we have all heard from old married men. 

I'm redpill. I love women, I love my nieces and my mom and sister. They are what they are. They are just different from men. Like ants are different from alligators. 

Women are even superior in some ways perhaps. G y the rational male website. Rollo Tomassi is one of the more intelligent members of the redpill community and actually argue against something he says, instead of strawmans
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@Wylted

Men Going their own way is just men who wish to remain single, not necessarily sexless though some do refrain from sex. 
If that were the case, the "movement" would be entirely redundant and unnecessary, like a meme.

I'm redpill. I love women, I love my nieces and my mom and sister. They are what they are. They are just different from men. Like ants are different from alligators. 
But that you refer yourself as "redpill" means what? You think those outside your group don't know that men and women are different?

Women are even superior in some ways perhaps. G y the rational male website. Rollo Tomassi is one of the more intelligent members of the redpill community and actually argue against something he says, instead of strawmans.
Which strawman arguments?