-->
@Benjamin
I agree with you that living under a free democracy is better than living under an authoritarian government.
The Israeli-Arab conflict
Posts
Total:
109
-->
@Username
Then we agree.
-->
@Username
The question I am asking is whether or not a Palestinian state will magically be a free democracy rather than be an authoritarian regime. As far as I know, not a single Arab nation has shown itself worthy of being called "free democracy" -- and that is why I suggest Israel annex the west bank; it is simply a better deal for both sides. In the long run, the current conflict will seem insignificant, just like today's Arabs live happily and voluntarily in Israel whereas their parents would have preferred them to live in an Arabian (read: authoritarian) state.
-->
@Benjamin
We agree about that, but we don't agree about whether Israel should annex the West Bank.
-->
@Benjamin
If the Palestinians do not want to live under a nation of people who are religiously separate from them, the long term effects are not relevant (or are outweighed).
-->
@Username
Accepting people of different identity and opinion is the definition of respect, the very basis of modern civilisation. I severely doubt any people can be prosperous without respect. So with all due respect, I don't agree with you that merely Arabs not respecting Jews is enough reason to conclude that Israel should not annex the west bank. That lack of respect shown by the Arabs, if they think as you say, is dangerous and the root cause of terrorism and alike. If you lack respect for others then it won't do anything to grant your wishes, you will just demand more -- as evidenced by Hamas continuing to attack Israel even after getting sovereignty of the Gaza strip.
No, the solution is to force or teach people respect --- which might only happen in Israel as every Arab country has "removed" most Jews and Christians a long time ago.
-->
@Benjamin
So, "Just have some respect and live under our country. We know what's best for yours."? Really? Do you not see how authoritarian that is?
A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
-->
@Username
Cambridge definition of Authoritarian: demanding that people obey completely and refusing to allow them freedom to act as they wish:
I neither demand complete obedience nor refuse to allow people to have freedom. I am simply saying that the state of Israel should annex a piece of land, which means solely that the inhabitants of that piece of land receive full citizenship and can no longer be maltreated by the Israelian government. If they want to leave a paradise of a free democracy and once again enter a desert of authoritarian Arab states then it's their choice.
But the issue at hand is that
- Israel cannot let the west bank become another Gaza
- The inhabitants of the west bank are being oppressed by their current leaders as well as suffering from Israelian military occupation
The only way to solve this problem is for Israel to annex the west bank.
Even you do think that Israel is evil, what are you gonna do. Israel has nukes. If they want to annex the west bank you cannot prevent them. The Arabs on the other hand are both guilty and the root cause of this conflict (attacking Israel constantly and recklessly throughout history), while at the same time lacking the ability to do anything about it, leading to terrorism against civilians and oppression of their own population in order to continue their power.
Only Israel has the power to make their solution come true, and only Israel is evidently a free democracy in which the Arabs of the west bank can thrive politically as well as religiously. The fact that Arabs have been indoctrinated into thinking that living in Israel is bad only supports my conclusion. . Even if they get their own state Arabs will continue to think of themselves as victims and accuse Israel for their problems, I once again refer to Gaza as an example. Only in Israel can the Arabs be free from indoctrination and truly live good lives. The Arabs living in Israel already live in peace and prosperity -- why should we prevent the Arabs of the west bank from getting that life?
-->
@Benjamin
I can't seem to get through to you here so I will give you an analogy:
Should European states have collectively annexed Germany after WW2?
-->
@Benjamin
Also: Why don't Israel's West Bank settlements delegitimize them when the PLO's terrorist acts do delegitimize them?
-->
@Benjamin
Finally: Do you realize that Israel officially initiated the Six-Day War? Which is the whole pretense for this occupation? So the Palestinians cannot be constituted in any way to have forfeited their right to national self-determination to Israel?
-->
@Username
Sorry, did you mean to say that Great Britain and France started WW2, they were the ones to officially declare war on Germany. Yet Germany forced them to act, which is exactly what the Arabs did with intense planning of invasion, alliances against Israel, Egyptian forces put close to the border and Egyptian + Syrian + Jordanian promises to attack Israel and wipe them from the map as they also tried in 1948. No, Israel did not initiate the six-day war -- the Arabs did.
Furthermore, the Jordanian government was sent a letter from Israel telling them to not attack Israel and they would be safe. Yet Transjordania attacks Israel precisely on those hills, nearly overwhelming Israelian defences. Israel only managed to survive because of air superiority, which they only achieved with their pre-emptive strike on the Egyptian military after provocative acts.
Indeed, the Arabs started this conflict as they did every other conflict. Israel is a small nation, nothing except intense fear under threats can drive it to fight a war.
-->
@Benjamin
Did Israeli officials not know that Egyptian actions were defensive in case Israel invaded Syria?
-->
@Benjamin
Allow me to bring all of this back: Syrian initiated skirmishes with Israel caused Israel to fight Egypt because Egypt took defensive movements to protect Syria and Jordan was allied to Egypt... And so therefore... Israel gets to permanently occupy the homes of people who want nothing to do with them?
-->
@Username
Did the Egyptians know that closing the Suez canal for specifically Israelian ships would be interpreted as an act of war? If not, did they expect to destroy the innocent lives of peaceful Israelian shippers by taking away their jobs?
-->
@Benjamin
Allow me to bring all of this back: Syrian initiated skirmishes with Israel caused Israel to fight Egypt because Egypt took defensive movements to protect Syria and Jordan was allied to Egypt... And so therefore... Israel gets to permanently occupy the homes of people who want nothing to do with them?
Answer my question.
-->
@Benjamin
Perhaps I have not spoken clearly enough. I do not interpret Israel as the entirely faulty party when I say that they have initiated the war. But I am saying that for that reason it can hardly be constituted as a one-sided aggressive war to the 1948 War and for that reason cannot at all justify the current prolonged state of the occupation.
-->
@Benjamin
WW2 is clear. Germany violated the orders of the Allies to stop invading other nations.
-->
@Benjamin
Did the Egyptians know that closing the Suez canal for specifically Israelian ships would be interpreted as an act of war? If not, did they expect to destroy the innocent lives of peaceful Israelian shippers by taking away their jobs?
Do you mean the Straits of Tiran? Egypt blockaded the straits because the Soviets told them that Israel was mobilizing on Syria.
-->
@Username
+Admittedly, I know very little about this conflict- only the scant articles and arguments about it. My perspective - both need to cease hostilities; however, certainly, Iseral should stop abusing Palestines - and they shouldn't have to be annexed to get that- that's a basic expectation. That's about it though - as I said - I have barely any knowledge here.
-->
@Theweakeredge
I agree with you.
-->
@Username
Just curious on some context - what exactly is the conflict that directly started the conversation.
-->
@Theweakeredge
Benjamin supports the Israeli annexation of the West Bank. I oppose it.
-->
@Username
Yes, on 28 May, 2020, Netanyahu said he was committed to annexing parts of the West Bank in July once a joint Israeli-US team completes mapping the exact territory based on the conceptual map released by US President Donald Trump's administration.
-->
@Benjamin
If you're going to accept purely testimonial evidence, then maybe look at this :https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/ndo3yu/how_palestines_live_under_israel_an_account_of_an/?sort=controversial
-->
@Username
the current prolonged state of the occupation.
What "occupation?" And by whom is the offense given?
David purchased the temple mount [formerly Mt Moriah, where Abraham was to sacrifice Isaac, but was prevented at the last moment], and surrounding land [effectively, the whole of the West Bank, simply because the Jordan River was a natural boundary], from Araunah, the Jebusite king, a descendent of Ishmael, Isaac's half-brother, and father of all Arab tribes/nations, for the price of 50 shekels of silver. Araunah was willing to give the land to David, but David prudently insisted on the purchase and established the price. No one since has offered payment for the land. It still rightly belongs to David's descendants, even though the record indicates that Jacob and the remaining sons [11] went to Egypt during famine, received by Joseph, Jacob's last son [12] who was sold by his brothers to Egypt. The record does not indicate all members of Jacob's family [grandchildren, for example, necessarily went to Egypt; highly unlikely. Therefore some of the House of Israel [or Jacob] remained in Palestine, land that had been Abraham's, Grandfather of Jacob.
I am fascinated by the utter lack from any of you of the position that Palestine [which, as a nation, even now, exists only as a suggestion officially sanctioned by the UN, and not a recognized sovereign State], should have sovereignty of the West Bank. If ya'll think that the Arab nations are so solidly behind the sovereignty of a Palestinian State, why are none of them offering a portion of their land to be a State of Palestine? Don't know? Take a guess. It's plain as day if you're willing to open some eyes beyond your woke condition, which is complete shut-eye to me. I will not tell you now. I want your guess, first.
-->
@Benjamin
I have not read most of this thread. At some point I might, but not likely. Palestinians claim that they were illegally excluded from a mosque during Ramadan, and then when Israel enforced the exclusion order (based on security threats) which had been announced well in advance of Ramadan, Hamas retaliated by trying to murder innocent Israelis.
As always, Hamas chose to launch rockets from areas highly populated by civilians, so Israel would get waves of bad press about how they murder school children and the like. If they could find a hospital to launch missiles from the roof, they'd do that too. For Hamas, dead civilians are involuntary martyrs to the cause. Their deaths, according to Hamas, are in service to Allah.
This is terrorism in its purest form. I have no sympathy for any member of Hamas who is killed by the IDF, now or at any time. I do have sympathy for the certain Palestinians who are both innocent and by no act of their own doing, caught in the crossfire between terrorists like Hamas and the IDF. But I also think this is a pretext to undo the troop withdrawals Trump carried out in the Middle East. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. But this is reopening the door, which should give great pause.
And to be clear, it is not as if I just hate Muslims. Quite the contrary. I have many Muslim friends, including immigrants to the United States from the Middle East, North Africa, Pakistan, Iran and otherwise. I have been invited to evening festivities (I forget the Arabic name) during Ramadan and after its completion. Religious practices are not something I trivialize, even though I do not agree with how Islam is practiced in many areas like Saudi Arabia. The food, company and friendship of those times is of tremendous cultural and civilizational value. Not to mention, there is always delicious food.
-->
@Username
Sorry for not responding more yesterday I was sleeping.
To answer you, not only did the Syrians constantly bombard innocent farmers in north Israel but the Arabian nations also were conspiring and making alliances with the specific purpose of going to war against Israel. Coupled with the threat of annihilation felt by Israel after 1948 there was nothing to be done except war. Israel, once again, tried to be diplomatic but the Arabian nations, even Jordan, refused to participate. Also, this shows that Israel conquered the west bank from Jordan rather than "Palestine".
-->
@fauxlaw
What about pre-David.
How far do we have to go back before we agree on who to blame or not.
And all land ownership, is expropriation or theft anyway.
And who has the power to recognise?....Well, obviously the ones with the power to recognise.
So a lot of people recognise Israel as a legitimate sovereign state, and a lot do not....And so the consequences are as they are and will be ongoing.
Because the U.S. and it's allies have and never will be able to settle the issue.