Yes, I've encountered this map, and others life it, many times. I get what it is representing, but I don't understand how to adequately explains red/blue shift of stars, but that some stars do not exhibit the phenomenon at all, or why the sky ends at meeting the plane of Earth, or that all observable celestial bodies that cross the sky east to west transit back to the east every 24 hours. What? They magically pass through the wooden base with the little feet? Or through the gray fog behind it all? And why do all planetary bodies visible to us pass through phases as does the Moon, but the Sun never does except when the Sun is eclipsed by the moon, except even when eclipsed, the Sun is not always seen as a simple crescent, and that theMoon's eclipse is not always a simple expanding/contracting crescent, either? Too many contradictions in the relative motions of all, and yet, Earth is described as "immovable." If it is, why has the sky not always appeared to same to us, and will not in the future? I have seen [yes, not in reality, but by perfectly explainable projection at a planetarium] the sky 5,000 years ago, and 10,000 years from now. I watched the progression of 15,000 total years inside 45 minutes when I passed off my astronomy merit badge as an eagle scout. Special privilege by the planetarium director, who also happened to be the merit badge counselor, who recognized on me a keep interest well beyond just the desire to pass off a merit badge, allowed the view most customers do not have a chance to see. 5,000 years ago, the sky was different, but some constellations were still somewhat recognizable, but by 10,000 years into the future, I could not recognize a single one of the 40 constellations I had just identified for the merit badge. Entirely naturally, without man's intervention, nothing orbits the Earth but the Moon. Well, actually, there may be a few bound rocks in distant orbit, but nothing of any significance, And nothing that can be seen by naked eye.
Theories regarding the creation and evolution of Abrahamic religion
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@Timid8967
@RatMan
No one is actually a "Flat Earther".....Everyone knows that the Earth is spheroid.
Some people pretend to be different.....And there's nothing wrong with a bit of harmless pretence.
It's when we stone people on the basis of pretence....That we should start to worry.
And make a relevant map, and Cube Earth would be ok..
And what does the underside of the disc look like?
And if one flew across the underside, would one be upside down or the right way up?
And how deep are the sides of the disc?
And how deep can the sides of the disc be, before it cedes to cylindricity?
And who controls the light switch.....LOL.
What say you Ratty? (Wind in the Willows).
RationalMadman wrote...
Many physical things have been proven wring since then, regarding scientific facts but fubnily enough the one thing that may be true is that we live on a stationary flat disc, as the Bible old testament (which is identical in storyline to the Torah) strongly implies. The Qur'an also implies this at certain points since it supports the old testament Bible being true.
Photos of Earth from space
Here are some photos of planet earth from space.
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@Nevets
share a common beginning in the monotheism of the Judaic religion.
You're entertaining an historic misconception. Christianity and Islam did not split out of Judaism. Not if the history is really understood for what it is.
1. Abraham [or Abram], was Judah's Great grandfather [Judah, for whom Judaism is named].
2. Actually, it was not even Judah who promulgated Judaism; Moses is you promulgator, 6 or 7 generations following Judah, being the one who delivered the Law [of Moses].
3. From the Law of Moses [Judaism] we are introduced to the concept of a Messiah [Christ, and Christianity].
4. Adam and Eve are advised [Gen 3] that Eve's seed [her descendent] will bruise the head of the serpent [Satan]. The bruising descendent is Christ.
5.Let us recall from Exodus that the Lord gave Moses commandments, written by the Lord on tablets, commandments re: the proper worship of God, and the proper comportment of the people with one another, and in just those 10 commandments are the principles taught by Christ in two sermons: on the Mount, and the Bread of Life. But also recall by further reading in Exodus that Moses came down from Sinai and observed the people breaking virtually all the Commandments just received, which actually included the building of a tabernacle, after which the first Temple of Solomon at Jerusalem was eventually built, and renovated on at least two occasions before Christ came. The Lord then gave just a replacement of the tablets, the 10 commandments, and then over time taught them the detail of obedience that is the sum of the Torah today, but none of the higher law originally given but from the 10 Commandments. That higher law would be withheld until Christ came. Thus, by his coming, Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, offering its replacement, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which should have been what was lived all along, the higher law, since Adam.
6. Islam owes allegiance to Abraham, but not to Judah. Islam comes from Abraham through Ishmael, not Issac. Abraham, therefore is a fountainhead for Judaism, and then Islam, but the idea of a Redeemer of mankind, a Messiah, is as old as Adam and Eve.
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@fauxlaw
Fauxlaw wrote...
You're entertaining an historic misconception. Christianity and Islam did not split out of Judaism. Not if the history is really understood for what it is.1. Abraham [or Abram], was Judah's Great grandfather [Judah, for whom Judaism is named].2. Actually, it was not even Judah who promulgated Judaism; Moses is you promulgator, 6 or 7 generations following Judah, being the one who delivered the Law [of Moses].3. From the Law of Moses [Judaism] we are introduced to the concept of a Messiah [Christ, and Christianity].4. Adam and Eve are advised [Gen 3] that Eve's seed [her descendent] will bruise the head of the serpent [Satan]. The bruising descendent is Christ.5.Let us recall from Exodus that the Lord gave Moses commandments, written by the Lord on tablets, commandments re: the proper worship of God, and the proper comportment of the people with one another, and in just those 10 commandments are the principles taught by Christ in two sermons: on the Mount, and the Bread of Life. But also recall by further reading in Exodus that Moses came down from Sinai and observed the people breaking virtually all the Commandments just received, which actually included the building of a tabernacle, after which the first Temple of Solomon at Jerusalem was eventually built, and renovated on at least two occasions before Christ came. The Lord then gave just a replacement of the tablets, the 10 commandments, and then over time taught them the detail of obedience that is the sum of the Torah today, but none of the higher law originally given but from the 10 Commandments. That higher law would be withheld until Christ came. Thus, by his coming, Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, offering its replacement, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which should have been what was lived all along, the higher law, since Adam.6. Islam owes allegiance to Abraham, but not to Judah. Islam comes from Abraham through Ishmael, not Issac. Abraham, therefore is a fountainhead for Judaism, and then Islam, but the idea of a Redeemer of mankind, a Messiah, is as old as Adam and Eve.
Jewish old testament
Well they certainly had an influence didn't they? Afterall it was the Jews that authored the old testament.
As previously pointed out, the Five books of Moses had been canonized in the year 444bc. During the subsequent five hundred years, under Persian, Greek, and Roman domination, the Jews wrote, revised, admitted, and canonized the Jewish old testament.
Early Christianity was a Jewish movement
The early movement which later turned in to Christianity, was originally a Jewish movement.
Early Christianity began as a Jewish movement in the first-century Palestine.
Jesus was Jewish
Even Jesus was Jewish.
Jesus[e] (c. 4 BC – AD 30 / 33), also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus Christ,[f] was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader.[11]
Influence
I think it is fair to conclude that Judaists from the Kingdom of Judea pre-date Christianity and at least have some influence on both Christianity and Islam.
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@fauxlaw
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@Nevets
Influence? Of course. But we're talking origins of religions here, or do I misunderstand what you mean by "creation and evolution of Abrahamic religion?" Your words, my friend, not mine. And since the advent of the Messiah is taught to Adam and Eve, a point you have completely ignored, by the way, and repeated in Judaism when Moses brought the Law, which included, had you forgotten [an apparent epidemic] all tribes of the House of Israel in Egypt, and brought out of Egypt by Moses, and established in Canaan as multiple tribes, not just the House of Judah. Your first citation goes nowhere. The second only mentions the Jews, not any other House of Israel. You cannot combiine them. all together as even many "scholars" do, because they are of very separate material lineage [four mothers, no? not one]. Gather your entire history. Selective history might be interesting, but we're allegedly talking origins here. Stick to your subject.
Your source may claim, "Early Chgristianity began as a first century Jewish movement," but as I have demonstrated, Christianity, a religion, after all, based on Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Redeemer, the Bruiser of Satan's Head, was taught to Adam and Eve, millennia before the first century.
You are ignoring origins. Stop, wake up, read the texts for what they are telling you. Paul did not invent "Christ, and Christ crucified" as a teaching point.
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@RationalMadman
I be hearin' rhythm and rhyme,
Rhymin' time, all the time,
Rhymin' time don't mean true
Don't mean false, just mean boo,
Just be what bein' told to you.
I be sayin' rhythm and rhyme,
Make it beat, but it's my time
Yo be sayin; must be true,
Can't be blue, be blue to you,
Just what bein' told to you.
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@fauxlaw
Fauxlaw wrote...
Influence? Of course. But we're talking origins of religions here, or do I misunderstand what you mean by "creation and evolution of Abrahamic religion?" Your words, my friend, not mine. And since the advent of the Messiah is taught to Adam and Eve, a point you have completely ignored, by the way, and repeated in Judaism when Moses brought the Law, which included, had you forgotten [an apparent epidemic] all tribes of the House of Israel in Egypt, and brought out of Egypt by Moses, and established in Canaan as multiple tribes, not just the House of Judah. Your first citation goes nowhere. The second only mentions the Jews, not any other House of Israel. You cannot combiine them. all together as even many "scholars" do, because they are of very separate material lineage [four mothers, no? not one]. Gather your entire history. Selective history might be interesting, but we're allegedly talking origins here. Stick to your subject.Your source may claim, "Early Chgristianity began as a first century Jewish movement," but as I have demonstrated, Christianity, a religion, after all, based on Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Redeemer, the Bruiser of Satan's Head, was taught to Adam and Eve, millennia before the first century.You are ignoring origins. Stop, wake up, read the texts for what they are telling you. Paul did not invent "Christ, and Christ crucified" as a teaching point.
Hewbrew bible
But the main root source for the Adam and Eve story was the "Hebrew bible".?
In the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible, chapters one through five, there are two creation narratives with two distinct perspectives. In the first, Adam and Eve are not named. Instead, God created humankind in God's image and instructed them to multiply and to be stewards over everything else that God had made. In the second narrative, God fashions Adam from dust and places him in the Garden of Eden.
I must be missing something. I fail to understand how using Adam and Eve as an example removes Judaist influence. As far as I am aware the Hebrew bible was written by mostly Judeans. They are the source for all other Adam and Eve accounts?
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@Nevets
But the main root source for the Adam and Eve story was the "Hebrew bible".?
Which include that which you continue to ignore: the included story of a higher law than the law of Noses: the promise of a Messiah, embodies by Jesus Christ.
As far as I am aware the Hebrew bible was written by mostly Judeans.
Your awareness needs enlightening:
1. Moses is the author of the pentateuch, Genesis through Deuteronomy [299 pages in my KJV] He is a Levite, not of Judah.
2. Joshua, the author of his self-named book [173 pgs[ Josh is of Ephraim, not Judah
3. Ruth, the next author [4 pgs] She is not of the House of Israel at all, but a Moabite.
4. Samuel, both books [86 pgs] is also a Levite, not of Judah.
5. Kings [2 books about David] [90 pgs], our first biblical Jew.
6. Chronicles [2 books about Jews, attributed to Ezra, a Jew [360 pgs] Ezra is of Judah, but he reviews for us the lineage of Jacob [Israel] and his 12 sons.
7. The balance are from Judah, with the exception of Malachi, a Levite. [15 pgs].
Virtually half of the O.T. [ 577 of 1184 pages] is written by, or attributed to authors who are not of the House of Judah.
If I can look this stuff up, so can you. Why don't you?
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@fauxlaw
Fauxlaw wrote...
Which include that which you continue to ignore: the included story of a higher law than the law of Noses: the promise of a Messiah, embodies by Jesus Christ.
Your awareness needs enlightening:1. Moses is the author of the Pentateuch, Genesis through Deuteronomy [299 pages in my KJV] He is a Levite, not of Judah.2. Joshua, the author of his self-named book [173 pgs[ Josh is of Ephraim, not Judah3. Ruth, the next author [4 pgs] She is not of the House of Israel at all, but a Moabite.4. Samuel, both books [86 pgs] is also a Levite, not of Judah.5. Kings [2 books about David] [90 pgs], our first biblical Jew.6. Chronicles [2 books about Jews, attributed to Ezra, a Jew [360 pgs] Ezra is of Judah, but he reviews for us the lineage of Jacob [Israel] and his 12 sons.7. The balance are from Judah, with the exception of Malachi, a Levite. [15 pgs].Virtually half of the O.T. [ 577 of 1184 pages] is written by, or attributed to authors who are not of the House of Judah.If I can look this stuff up, so can you. Why don't you?
Hebrew bible
Every single person you mention, including Moses, was brought to fame by the Hebrew bible?
The Pentatuech was also a book of the Hebrew bible?
Torah (/ˈtɔːrə, ˈtoʊrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching" or "Law") has a range of meanings. It can most specifically mean the first five books (Pentateuch or Five Books of Moses) of the Hebrew Bible.
Conclusion
Is it not fair to conclude that had it not been for Hebrew scholars we today would never have ever heard of Moses, Joshua, Ruth, Samuel, et cetera?
Whilst the authors of the Hebrew bible may or may not point to earlier historically objectionable writings as their source, "we" as Christians, Catholics, Muslims or other, mostly get our version from the Hebrew scholars? The fact that you yourself believe that the writings come from earlier sources actually comes from the word of Hebrew scholars?
Moses is just a myth made up by people with numerous brain lesions.
Academic consensus is that the Exodus story is a myth and contains little of historical worth, while archaeology has ended any search for evidence for Moses as a "fruitless pursuit". No references to Moses appear in any Egyptian sources prior to the fourth century BCE, long after he is believed to have lived.
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@Jamball
Jamball wrote...
Moses may be a myth to people who have no faith but even Egyptian sources are less reliable than the Bible which is strong proof of Moses and all that happened.
Interesting statement Jamball. Perhaps deserving of an entirely new thread of its own. Biblical sources versus Egyptian sources.
Predynastic pharoahs en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharaohs#Predynastic_period
For Egypt we have a complete list of pharoahs dating back to the predynastic period of approximately 3250bc.
We have a complete list of Egyptian viziers dating all the way back to the Egyptian fourth dynasty.
High Priests of Ptah en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Priest_of_Ptah#List_of_High_Priests_of_Ptah
We have a complete list of High Priests of Ptah dating back to the Old Kingdom fourth dynasty.
Ancient Egyptian papyri List of ancient Egyptian papyri
We have lists of ancient Egyptian papyri that date back to 26th century bc.
Archaeological evidence, pyramids and mummies en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I#/media/File:Ahmose_Mummy_at_Luxor_Museum_in_Luxor_Egypt.jpg
We have so much archaeological evidence such as pyramids and mummies, such as the mummified corpse of Ahmose I in the link above.
Biblical sources are more reliable?
Yet very little of what is kept from ancient Egyptian sources corroborates much written in the bible. Yet you say that what is written in the bible is more reliable than that of what was written by the ancient Egyptians on steles, papyrus and tombs? What brings you to this conclusion?
P.S
Jamball removed his/her post while I was writing this reply
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@fauxlaw
You old rapper, you.
Is there no end to this Man's talents?
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@zedvictor4
@fauxlawYou old rapper, you.Is there no end to this Man's talents?
Nope, and he can do it in ancient Greek ,too
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@zedvictor4
Thanks. In fact, the ancient Greeks considered poetry psilos logos, or, naked language.
The form was actually developed prior to prose. Further, the poetry, unlike our stressed syllabic style today, such as with iambic pentameter, had syllabic accented pitch and duration prior to about the 7th or 8th century BCE, when iambic pentameter, and its associated stresses, were first developed. Finally, along with the celebrated Olympic games, poetry recitations and music performance were a awarded competitions. Sport and Grammys all in one.
7 days later
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@Nevets
So what are your theories regarding how it all began, and why?
From Allah himself because Christianity is the true religion,
next question?
25 days later
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@Nevets
It was all stolen from Zoroastrianism.
27 days later
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@Nevets
The Israelites and their culture, according to the modern archaeological account, did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of these Canaanite peoples and their cultures through the development of a distinct monolatristic—and later monotheistic—religion centered on Yahweh.[90][91][92][93][94][95]
- This is not History. This is a story, a fantastic tale just as fantastic as the Jewish story. Literature. Presumablism nonsense.
- As to your question. All religions share a common theme & a common story, thus originating from a single source, but with different interpretations.: The Absolute Being (i.e. God), then some other helper deities, angels, devils, messengers from God, a first man, a flood, a bunch of commandments, an underworld & a hereafter.
- The problem with atheist historians dealing with such past is that they bend archeological evidence to fit their presumptions. For instance, they assume that people necessarily worship gods they portrayed, when this is a dumb assumption. The Greeks believed in the First Being, yet they did not portray Him. The Arabs believed in Allah (the absolute being), yet they did not portray Him, & the gods they portrayed they believed to be only intercessors to Allah. If pre-Islamic Arab literature & Greek literature were not preserved, the dumb archeologist would've easily jumped to the conclusion that the Greeks & Arabs did not believe...
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@Nevets
Through intuition mostly. The "collective unconscious". People recieve or intuit, or both, pieces of reality. Then they make interpretaions through their filter of preconcieved notions and experience. It comes out a jumbled mess most of the time, but there are always elements of truth.