God and Hitler

Author: Bones

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#31
FLRW
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Listen to the greatest Jew in history:

 “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”

Albert Einstein 1954
#32
Lemming
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@FLRW
I'd rather read the Book of Job.
#33
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Is this question here cause it’s Hitler’s birthday today?
#34
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@Bones
but surely omnibenevolence, one of Gods four omni's, is not a mistranslation. 
Was/is God omni-b to Satan, who was cast out of heaven, never to return? Not just Satan, but the minions who agreed with him?

it would be a contradiction to my characteristics if I do not do anything. 
Hmm, so you bounce completely to the other end since you, once again, play the omni card. You, therefore, deny free agency.


  1. Everything which led to Hitler doing what he did was foreseen by God. 
  2. God, being all powerful knew why Hitler did what he did, and refused to help or enlighten him. 
  3. God knew that Hitler would kill 6 million Jews and he refused to a)defend the Jews, b)at least inform them to be ready c)stop Hitler d)make Hitler understand why his philosophy is incorrect. 
By your numbers:

1. Have you children? Having a completely barren profile, that says something. Having had the experience of childhood myself, I could foresee the thoughts and actions of my children. All of them? No, but enough to help guide them. I begin with the premise that we are all born with an innate ability, which must be developed in each of us in childhood to recognize the distinction of good and evil.

2. We come to know what is right and wrong while still in childhood, certainly long before Hitler embarked on his adcult life of insanity toward others, but he knew it. While still young children, I taught the principles of good and evil, and why each was each. Still on some occasions, they would come to me with questions, because I had already taught them they could trust to receive goos advice. No, not all parents do gthat, but that is on them; not society, and not on me. It is not that Hitler may have never had any advice from God. The question is, did Hitler ever take the personal reesponsibility to seek him earnestly, wanting to know. Personal responsibility is one of the great lessons God expects us to learn.

3. Answered by 2. Call it omniagency on our part, and part of that omniagency is knowing the consequences of our thoughts and actions, and agreeing to accept them should we choose to disobey God.

Well tell that to the dead Jews who are fertilising in the soil right now. Tell them to fix themselves. 
I will tell you since they already know it, now, and you have yet failed to grasp that death in any consequence is just a portal to what's beyond. Those killed in their innocence bear no responsibility for their deaths, and there is no clock on any of our mortal lives, and the atonement of Christ has already redeemed then from permanent death; they will rise again whether or not they believed that condition was and will be a reality. In that regard, that is the universal gift of God. Death is the last enemy to be defeated through no action of our own. How and by what means we earn the right to continue to advance in our subsequent eternal lives is on us, individually, just as was our personal responsibility in mortality. Hitler was, and is merely a bump in the road. Once passed that bump, by resurrection, all pass by it, redeemed of all scars, physical, mental, spiritual. The rest, as it was in mortality, is on us.

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#35
Bones
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@fauxlaw
but surely omnibenevolence, one of Gods four omni's, is not a mistranslation. 
Was/is God omni-b to Satan, who was cast out of heaven, never to return? Not just Satan, but the minions who agreed with him?
I advice you not to draw a parallel between Satan and the victims of the holocaust. 

it would be a contradiction to my characteristics if I do not do anything. 
Hmm, so you bounce completely to the other end since you, once again, play the omni card. You, therefore, deny free agency.
What exactly is the omni card? You are the one who claims your God is all loving, and you are also the one who claims you'e God is all loving. Consider the following.
 
p1. An all loving being will not allow an act of unjust and hate to occur 
p2. An act of unjust and hate occurred. 
c1. Such a being does not exist. 


  1. Everything which led to Hitler doing what he did was foreseen by God. 
  2. God, being all powerful knew why Hitler did what he did, and refused to help or enlighten him. 
  3. God knew that Hitler would kill 6 million Jews and he refused to a)defend the Jews, b)at least inform them to be ready c)stop Hitler d)make Hitler understand why his philosophy is incorrect. 
By your numbers:

1. Have you children? Having a completely barren profile, that says something. Having had the experience of childhood myself, I could foresee the thoughts and actions of my children. All of them? No, but enough to help guide them. I begin with the premise that we are all born with an innate ability, which must be developed in each of us in childhood to recognize the distinction of good and evil.
I a completely confused as to what this is supposed to prove. Do you dispute the fact that God knew what Hitler was going to do? 

2... It is not that Hitler may have never had any advice from God. The question is, did Hitler ever take the personal responsibility to seek him earnestly, wanting to know.
The point is that whatever God did or didn't good, he was prior aware that Hitler would commit a crime against humanity because he did not get enough advice or teaching from God. God knows why Hitler did what he did, and he also knows what lesson He can teach which can act as an antidote to Hitler's wicked mind. Why did He let Hitler do what he did, why didn't He put the necessary life lessons in his way to prevent it?

Personal responsibility is one of the great lessons God expects us to learn.
Sure, if God taught Hitler a lesson, that would not be an issue, but what about the 6 million Jews? In what way is allowing Hitler to do what he did a lesson? What do the Jews learn? 

I will tell you since they already know it, now, and you have yet failed to grasp that death in any consequence is just a portal to what's beyond.
Seriously? So as an exchange of being gassed with your family, God, who let me remind you, does not provide sufficient evidence for all to know with certainty that he is real, will let you go to heaven? I This is not about an exchange, you cannot exchange mortal life for anything. That is like saying "I stole 10 million dollars from your bank account but don't worry I can introduce you to your future wife". Sure meeting your wife is cool, but it is not to be conflated with the 10 million dollars lost.And let me remind you, this is not 10 million dollars we are talking about, this is 6 million human lives. 

Since you are a believer of heaven, consider the following question. 

Can consciously imposed evil and suffering exist in heaven?

Option 1 is yes, however this makes no sense because if a being can impose suffering on others in heaven then it wouldn't really be heaven, for heaven is a place of goodness. 

Option two is no because God removed this part of free will thus disallowing people from acting evil. However, if this is true, then that would mean that upon entering heaven, your free will would instantly be restricted, thus you are no longer a free thinking agent. Moreover, would you really consider this "heaven" if all you are is just a robot programmed to be good.


#36
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@Bones
p1. An all loving being will not allow an act of unjust and hate to occur 
p2. An act of unjust and hate occurred. 
c1. Such a being does not exist. 
No all "syllogisms" are valid. This one is not. Here's why: P1 is flawed, therefore, even though P2 is true, C1 cannot be concluded in that fashion because P1 id wrong. You only can assume your p1 as is because you assume that if God is omnipotent, he must always act with omnipotence. He does not. Otherwise, we would have no free agency, and it is clear that we do because God allows us to sin. He expects that we repent of all sins, even minor ones like stealing candy from a store [because that harms the store owner by loss of a commodity which he'/she bought],  and so also major sins, such as causing serious harm to others; the root of the Holocaust. We have a concept called "tough-love," wherein although we love our children who are not law-abiding, we can love the sinning child while deploring the sin itself. Cannot God do the same? If not, why not, if we consider that just because God is all-powerful, he is not going to use his maximum power to destroy us should we sin, even as seriously as the Holocaust. we are not absolved of such sins unless we act with contrition and repent. That is Godly love; allowing us the opportunity to repent, and he does so because he also allowed the atonement of Christ in Gethsemane and on the cross, paying for the sins of all the world, and not just sins, but all our suffering, disappointment, grief and pain, including the pain of death at the hands of others, such as occurred with the Holocaust. Therefore, all who suffered by that horror are compensated by the atonement, eventually. In the meantime, all they's lost is the rest of their mortal lives that would have been lived had not the Holocauset occurree. But we all die eventually; everyone one of us. Death is not an end, but merely a portal through which we pass to enter life everlasting. So, what, exaclt, in the end, is lost that is not restored to us, conditional upon our individual repentance. The innocent have nothing of which to repent with sins of others who caused their suffering. Those offenses must be paid by those who caused them, and that was not God, even though he allowed it to happen.
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#37
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@fauxlaw
You only can assume your p1 as is because you assume that if God is omnipotent, he must always act with omnipotence. He does not. 
No, I am assuming that he is omnibenevolence (Psalm 100:5; Psalm 145:17; John 3:16). Why would an all loving being allow for 6 million Jews to die? 

Otherwise, we would have no free agency, and it is clear that we do because God allows us to sin. He expects that we repent of all sins, even minor ones like stealing candy from a store [because that harms the store owner by loss of a commodity which he'/she bought],  and so also major sins, such as causing serious harm to others; the root of the Holocaust. We have a concept called "tough-love," wherein although we love our children who are not law-abiding, we can love the sinning child while deploring the sin itself. Cannot God do the same?
You once again misunderstand. I understand that actions come with consequences. But what have the Jews done for it to be justified for them to be gassed to death with their family. 

That is Godly love; allowing us the opportunity to repent, and he does so because he also allowed the atonement of Christ in Gethsemane and on the cross, paying for the sins of all the world, and not just sins, but all our suffering, disappointment, grief and pain, including the pain of death at the hands of others, such as occurred with the Holocaust.
Again this is extraordinarily flawed. Revisiting my pre-school example, you are essentially saying "yes I will allow this small child to shoot every down because he wants to". And what part of Christ's atonement allows Hitler to do what he did? Does this give a free pass to all to act immorally? 

Therefore, all who suffered by that horror are compensated by the atonement, eventually.
We are going around in circles. I have already made drawn a distinction between being graciously compensated and ignoring the initial act. This would be like saying "I've just embezzled 10 million dollars from your bank account but don't worry, your horoscopes say you will meet your wife in the near future?" Great, you meet your wife, but this is not a trade off over cover up for the initial crime. Killing 6 million innocent Jews is wrong regardless of how you compensate them. 

Moreover, you are making the assumption that all of the victims will go to heaven. It is statistically unlikely that all of them were Christians, thus meaning some of the atheists will 1) be gassed and 2) enter Hell.

#38
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@Bones
Why would an all loving being allow for 6 million Jews to die? 
Because that all-loving being does not consider death to be an ultimate, unredeemable condition. Why do you?

But what have the Jews done for it to be justified for them to be gassed to death

Not a thing. Refer to the condition of death noted above. It is not a punishment. We all will die. How we die is of little consequence as long as we do so with a repentant, obedient heart. Better for us hereafter if we are. our innocent suffering has not to do with that kind of living.

And what part of Christ's atonement allows Hitler to do what he did? Does this give a free pass to all to act immorally? 
The part that says the atonement is infinite, both in its scope, and in its application to all who accept it and Christ as the Redeemer, but it is not applicable to those who do not. Not to me to judge whether or Hitler is redeemable. That's far from my paygrade.

Great, you meet your wife, but this is not a trade off over cover up for the initial crime. Killing 6 million innocent Jews is wrong regardless of how you compensate them. 
As said above, the consequences to us of the atonement are, 1] not ours to decide, and 2] there are qualifications necessary to meet to have redemption by the atonement. As also said above, not my place to judge. Nor yours. Don't, not even in Hitler's case, who is likely not the worst in history, anyway.
#39
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@FLRW
I'd sooner say the greatest Jew in history was Christ. Einstein, by comparison, was that child.
#40
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@ILikePie5
Hitler's birthday
So it was, yesterday. Wonder if he can blow out 132 candles? Enough of a blowhard, I suppose so. 
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#41
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@fauxlaw
Why would an all loving being allow for 6 million Jews to die? 
Because that all-loving being does not consider death to be an ultimate, unredeemable condition. Why do you?
Because mortal life contains value and to kill me removes me of that value, regardless of how I am repaid.With your flawed logic, I could easily go into a church and kill everyone by saying "well they are all praying to God, so they will have a good next life. Who cares that I've just killed them, death is, after all, not the ultimate unredeemable condition"



But what have the Jews done for it to be justified for them to be gassed to death

Not a thing.
And yet it is still right?

Great, you meet your wife, but this is not a trade off over cover up for the initial crime. Killing 6 million innocent Jews is wrong regardless of how you compensate them. 
As said above, the consequences to us of the atonement are, 1] not ours to decide, and 2] there are qualifications necessary to meet to have redemption by the atonement. As also said above, not my place to judge. Nor yours. Don't, not even in Hitler's case, who is likely not the worst in history, anyway.
Not our to decide, but surely an omnipotent can have a say? 

#42
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@Bones
to kill me removes me of that value, regardless of how I am repaid.
The only true value you have you take with you through death's open portal. Do you have any idea of the corruption that follows yhour burial even if embalmed. Believe me, that is a temporary condition you would not want to open the casket again to see.  If you're cremated, your body is ash and a few stubs of bone. It is dust, literally. Your body will be restored to a better condition than it ever was in life [you have flaws in it, now, that will be corrected] All else, your spirit, your mind, what you have learned and the knowledge of how you have lived is all taken with you, so what if you lose a temporary, mortal body? It is not the body that you will resurrect with, in any event. That one is perfect.

Who cares that I've just killed them,
You should, because willful killing by malice is a grievous sin for which you must repent, or your reward of an immortal body is about all you'll have to werite home about, but none of the glory that is your for being obedient, even by repentance.

And yet it is still right?
Did I say Hitler was right? Don't put words in my mouth. you know very well I did not say that; so don't ignore what I said. Come on, at least read with an open mind.
#43
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@rosends
Maybe so. And maybe faith is that we worship him anyway because we attribute all of existence to him even without understanding his nature.
If one were more definite and more definitive in one's faith, we would not be witness to so many words of incertitude.


#44
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@fauxlaw
I'd sooner say the greatest Jew in history was Christ.
In which case you would later come to regret such a travesty. Christ's core Christian beliefs were the complete antithesis of what those people were and believed.

#45
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@Matthew_18
If one were more definite and more definitive in one's faith, we would not be witness to so many words of incertitude.

If one were more aware of the content of a discussion, we would have fewer mistakenly drawn conclusions and mischaracterizations.
#46
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@rosends
If one were more aware of the content of a discussion, we would have fewer mistakenly drawn conclusions and mischaracterizations.
Naturally, one is aware of one's indiscretion in not standing by one's written word. 
#47
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@Matthew_18
And naturally, one is aware of the complexity of language and its subtleties and realizes errors and misunderstandings when they arise.
#48
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@rosends
Maybe so. And maybe faith is that we worship him anyway because we attribute all of existence to him even without understanding his nature.
If one were more definite and more definitive in one's faith, we would not be witness to so many words of incertitude.
#MoreCertainThanThou

491 days later

#49
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@Bones
God and Hitler.

Why did an omnipotent God allow 6 million Jews to die, while knowing that many of those victims were whispering begging Him in their final moments.
For almost as long as the Jewish nation has existed, it has been persecuted and forced to wander from land to land: starting with slavery in Egypt, to the destruction of both temples in Jerusalem, to the Crusades, the pogroms, the Holocaust, and finally, modern day anti-Semitism.

The Jews were exiled from their homeland by the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule (Holocaust)