Liberal logic

Author: TheUnderdog

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#31
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@Double_R
I didn’t say white people are killing black people, I said black people are asking to stop being killed by police officers, the ones who are being paid to protect and serve.
When you adjust for rates of violent crime, police are not disproportionately shooting black people. American police do tend to be overly trigger happy, but this is an issue that impacts everyone, not just black people. Overall, the police represent a negligible threat to black life, the biggest violent threat to the median black person, by far, is other black people. Given the rise in homicides in cities this year after the riots it’s pretty obvious that the police, despite their numerous flaws, save far more lives than they unjustly take. This is why opinion polls have found that only a small minority in any racial group wants less policing: https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

The point of pushing this stuff isn’t to enact sensible reform, or else advocates would take a more conciliatory approach that makes at least nominal concessions to white people or police supporters. Instead, it is clearly being used as a scissor statement to divide the population, or as a bludgeon to attack enemies. Think about the effort expended going after someone saying “all lives matter” instead of Black Lives Matter. So what? You could still probably come to common ground with a person who says that about reforming the law or changing the police rules of engagement. 
#32
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@thett3
When you adjust for rates of violent crime, police are not disproportionately shooting black people.
This is an entirely separate conversation. I don’t deny that the statistics aren’t as bad as most woke activists would have us believe. But BLM isn’t just about police shooting statistics, it’s about the way black people have been treated throughout this country’s history. Whether the current reality regarding this one topic matches the collective trauma is one thing, but pretending that that trauma doesn’t exist and/or itself isn’t justified is where I take issue.

The point of pushing this stuff isn’t to enact sensible reform, or else advocates would take a more conciliatory approach that makes at least nominal concessions to white people or police supporters.
The same can be said of every movement in America today. Look around, no one is trying to make any concessions on anything. Close to 90% of Americans support background checks yet we still can’t get legislation passed.

Think about the effort expended going after someone saying “all lives matter” instead of Black Lives Matter. So what?
So what is the fact that ALM is a complete dismissal of everything BLM is saying. When a white person hears someone say “Black Lives Matter” and their instinctive reaction is to translate that into “my life doesn’t”, that right there demonstrates the entire problem.

White people have no collective grievance to air, so ALM is a completely vapid slogan whose only purpose is to combat BLM. It’s just like when, in a response to mass shooting, republicans will start talking about mental health. Then, after everything calms down we never hear about mental health again. It was never a genuine concern, at least not one that demanded any kind of response. It was just being used to silence the opposition with a slogan that is reasonable in the abstract but is not being uttered in the abstract. No one is holding an ALM rally in anything other than protest of a BLM rally.



#33
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@Double_R
This is an entirely separate conversation. I don’t deny that the statistics aren’t as bad as most woke activists would have us believe. But BLM isn’t just about police shooting statistics, it’s about the way black people have been treated throughout this country’s history. Whether the current reality regarding this one topic matches the collective trauma is one thing, but pretending that that trauma doesn’t exist and/or itself isn’t justified is where I take issue.
It isn't a separate conversation, it's the entire conversation. If black people are NOT being unjustly killed at a disproportionate rate, adjusted for rates of violent crime, then All Lives Matter is actually a more appropriate slogan when it comes to police brutality.  

As for the question of history...yes, of course, things are not necessarily irrelevant just because they happened a long time ago. Most black families were not allowed to rise to the middle class during the golden post-war to 1970's years that cemented many white families in this status. Now that the US middle class is rapidly disintegrating they are even further behind, with little opportunity to skip right to the UPPER middle class. Many of the pathologies plaguing the black community, such as fatherlessness/the destruction of the family, economic destitution, declining life expectancies etc also impacted white families who missed the boat. Social and economic changes in the last fifty years or so have hit lower middle class Americans of all races extremely hard, and for black people being in a lower position to start with the hit was extra hard. I would never deny that.   

But the modern rhetoric doesn't exactly help with this. I don't see anyone on the left suggesting obvious solutions like bringing back the kinds of high paying, blue collar jobs that allowed poor Americans to rise to the middle class, jobs that politicians of both parties eagerly helped offshore. I don't see anyone talking about the future at all, other than blatantly discriminatory policies such as reparations that would further divide the population and would make no difference in the long term. I don't see any attempt to develop a POSITIVE black identity, the story of a people who went from slaves to supreme court justices, senators, and presidents. I see constant grievance mongering about events in the past that, increasingly, very few people even experienced and even fewer perpetrated. I see an obvious attempt to divide the population through a purposely toxic narrative. Kinda weird when big multinational corps are fully behind supposedly revolutionary rhetoric.....

The same can be said of every movement in America today. Look around, no one is trying to make any concessions on anything. Close to 90% of Americans support background checks yet we still can’t get legislation passed.
On the contrary. People who support gun control constantly make rhetorical concessions to gun owners, stating that they support the 2nd amendment but don't believe that, say, high capacity magazines should be legal. I imagine they would get a much frostier reception if they stated that yeah, we want to come for your guns and don't care about your rights. Yet when it comes to THIS issue, an individual who might agree with whatever policies might be suggested will nonetheless be attacked if they don't parrot the exact rhetoric which, lets be honest, is not the strongest rhetoric in the world. Why? It's religious behavior. It intentionally divides. 

So what is the fact that ALM is a complete dismissal of everything BLM is saying. When a white person hears someone say “Black Lives Matter” and their instinctive reaction is to translate that into “my life doesn’t”, that right there demonstrates the entire problem.
I mean, I think that reaction is kind of silly, sure. But no, that isn't the entire problem. The problem is police being too trigger happy and perhaps having too much immunity. It has absolutely nothing to do with a specific individuals reaction to a certain slogan, and everything to do with policy...which gets talked about a LOT less than trying to force people to affirm scissor statements. This is religious behavior
#34
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@zedvictor4
By FLRW:  The national debt level of the United States is a measurement of how much the federal government owes its creditors.  Right now it is $28 trillion dollars. The federal government is broke.
This is what I was referring to when I say funded. With real money not on paper. 
#35
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@Polytheist-Witch
What is real money?

Isn't money just a representation of something that eventually manifests as a reality.

No money, represents an inability to buy food, which eventually manifests as the reality of hunger.

Money represents greed, which eventually might manifest as the reality of a triple heart bypass.


Did you ever see the movie, In Time.
#36
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@thett3
It isn't a separate conversation, it's the entire conversation. If black people are NOT being unjustly killed at a disproportionate rate, adjusted for rates of violent crime, then All Lives Matter is actually a more appropriate slogan when it comes to police brutality.
Except that All Lives matter doesn’t care about police brutality. All Lives Matter is not a movement. There are no ALM organizations or ALM rallies being held in response to white people or anyone else being brutalized by police. It’s not a call for national unity around this issue, it’s a call for BLM advocates to sit down and shut up.

By claiming it’s a more appropriate slogan you are ignoring the entire context of this conversation. If your stance is that black people have no legitimate grievance with regards to police brutality, then argue that. But don’t retort by pretending that you care more about this issue than they do even though you never gave a crap about it until they started voicing their grievances on it. It’s disingenuous.

And I don’t mean you personally, for clarification. I’m speaking against the “movement” or whatever it is.

I mean, I think that reaction is kind of silly, sure.
But yet you are defending it. All Lives Matter, by definition, includes black lives. So if someone says Black Lives Matter and you respond with All Lives Matter, the only correction you made was to say that other lives matter also, which means that what you heard was “other lives don’t matter”. That’s the exact reaction I just described.

And it just emphasizes everything else I’ve argued here. If you care about black lives (as ALM definitionally entails) then you would have the basic sense to understand where they are coming from when they are expressing their grievances. Empathy is one of the most basic prerequisites to caring about someone else. Thus the lack of empathy that is needed to strawman BLM in the way ALM does is demonstrative of the exact opposite of what ALM means, making it an absurd statement in this context.

I see an obvious attempt to divide the population through a purposely toxic narrative.
There is nothing divisive about telling the country that the lives of black people matter. Even if you disagree with the premise that black people are being brutalized in any significant way there is still absolutely nothing about that which would lead you to go out and counter protest a BLM demonstration.

I mean think about what that says of one’s priorities; you care about all lives, but when someone is killed your reaction is to protest the people protesting the murder of that someone that you care about, all because those people singled out that person’s race and didn’t include you? What?
#37
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@thett3
Black families (Native Blacks, not Black immigrants) have been on the decline since 1965. Black families before 1965 steadily improved their situation through small increments. It's not rocket science to figure out why black lives didn't matter after 1965. It's also not rocket science to deduce causation between the most oppressed concentrations in Northern Urban areas which just so happen to be also run by Democrats for the past 50 years unopposed.
#38
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@Double_R
But yet you are defending it. All Lives Matter, by definition, includes black lives. So if someone says Black Lives Matter and you respond with All Lives Matter, the only correction you made was to say that other lives matter also, which means that what you heard was “other lives don’t matter”. That’s the exact reaction I just described.
The point is that the focus on the internal thought process of individuals, does a certain slogan offend them, are they supporting something for selfish reasons, etc. is a religious behavior. Much more important is trying to get people to support your position, even if you don't necessarily agree with their reasoning. 

I don't really care what any particular movement is called, but some people might. I don't think that getting people to affirm specific rhetoric is nearly as important as getting them to support good policies. And yet, it is obvious which one people actually care about more when we look at revealed preferences.

I actually do agree that it’s stupid to get offended by “black lives matter” but some people who do feel like that statement excludes them may nonetheless be willing to support, say, getting rid of qualified immunity or something. Surely it’s more important to reach out to those people to help enact positive change than to excessively focus on how selfish they are being for disagreeing with specific rhetoric, no?
#39
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@thett3
I have no idea why you are equating a focus on where people are coming from with religious behavior. Understanding the former is kind of the point in any political discussion.

Regarding your question, sure, from a purely strategic standpoint there are much better ways BLM can go about to get the kind of change they are asking for and I’ve argued with woke leftists many times about that. But it’s not always that simple. Black people are not just asking for policy concessions, they’re asking for people to care, otherwise when the next issue comes along we’ll be doing this all over again.

#40
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@Double_R
Black people are not just asking for policy concessions, they’re asking for people to care, otherwise when the next issue comes along we’ll be doing this all over again
Do you actually think white people don’t care about black people? It seems to me like white people simultaneously worship and fear black people. Getting validation from a black person is something a lot of whites are clearly obsessed with 

I mean what exactly do you want if not policy
#41
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@thett3
It isn't a separate conversation, it's the entire conversation. If black people are NOT being unjustly killed at a disproportionate rate, adjusted for rates of violent crime, then All Lives Matter is actually a more appropriate slogan when it comes to police brutality.  

That is not all that Black Lives Matter is about. It is about people not being held accountable for killing blacks, especially police but not only police. George Zimmerman killed a black teen for walking home with Skittles, Treyvon Martin did nothing wrong. And yet George Zimmerman walked. Ahmaud Arbery was shot by 2 white guys and the police were advised to make no arrests. It took months and publicity for charges to be brought against them.  When cops harass black neighborhoods, when they use excessive force with impunity, when they take black lives unjustly but it is presumed to be justified, these are all things BLM is about, not just the rates of death but the non punishment for death and force that is not warranted. 
#42
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@Unpopular
Do you have empirical evidence that 1) police/vigilantes unjustly kill black people at a higher rate when you adjust for violent crime and 2) that these killings are more likely to go unpunished than killings of a white, hispanic, or asian person? 

If you do, put it up and I will look at it. I don’t have an aversion to believing this, given the rate of police encounters with black people and their lack of economic power in a justice system that is clearly biased towards those with more money it wouldn’t surprise me if it WAS true.

But I’ve never seen actual evidence, just a lot of whining about anecdotes which frankly I have no patience for. I’ve also never seen any evidence that unjust police killings which of course are tragic and need to be stopped are anything more than a drop in the bucket. There are far more injustices against whites by blacks than vice versa (10x more violent crimes committed by blacks against whites a year than the reverse in fact) that get exactly zero non local press so spare me the histrionics about accountability 

#43
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@thett3
There are far more injustices against whites by blacks than vice versa (10x more violent crimes committed by blacks against whites a year than the reverse in fact) that get exactly zero non local press so spare me the histrionics about accountability 

Also, I've seen plenty of melanin-rich "white supremacists" killing and stomping Asians. Doesn't get much attention once the mugshot comes out, oddly enough.
#44
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@bmdrocks21
Right. There is a violent crime crisis that has been ongoing for decades now. And the overwhelming majority of the victims are innocent black people. Bringing this up is lambasted as whataboutism “what about black on black crime?!?!1!1” but this represents the overwhelming majority of violence against black people so if activists actually cared about black people (as opposed to using a few unjust killings to advance a separate and more sinister agenda) this is what would be focused on. The police shootings are the actual whataboutism 

I think I actually have some good ideas about how to help the poor of all races. Bring back as many blue collar jobs as humanly possible, stop requiring expensive college degrees for almost every job, stop trying to force everyone into a handful of increasingly expensive and extremely unequal metro areas, HEAVILY encourage marriage and family formation, destroy “welfare cliffs”, stop mass low skilled immigration etc... you could solve the problem of police being too trigger happy (which I agree that they are) overnight and while that would be a good thing it wouldn’t change the trajectory in the slightest 
#45
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@thett3
Do you have empirical evidence that 1) police/vigilantes unjustly kill black people at a higher rate when you adjust for violent crime and 2) that these killings are more likely to go unpunished than killings of a white, hispanic, or asian person? 

I am not sure what you are asking me for regarding killing  black people at a higher rate. I specifically said it's not only about that. When cops harass black neighborhoods, when they use excessive force with impunity, when they take black lives unjustly but it is presumed to be justified, these are all things BLM is about, not just the rates of death but the non punishment for death and force that is not warranted, and again it does not only apply to cops.

If a white person is killed by another white person, and especially a black person, there is a presumption that there will be fairness in the justice system, that the killer will be investigated, charged, and likely convicted.  When a black person is killed by someone, especially a cop, the presumption is the cop or white person was justified (does not apply to black on black crime). Even looking through these forums you can see the racism and disgusting analysis that cops are justified in killing "career criminals" which is ludicrous...... that is not how the justice system works. You aren't allowed to kill someone just because they have a violent criminal history, you aren't allowed to kill someone just because they are on drugs, yet this is a common mindset, and you see it being presented here  but want to pretend this is just made up and not factual without "statistics." 

Statistics say judging from exonerations, innocent black people are about seven times more likelyto be convicted of murder than innocent white people.

Statistics say black prisoners who are convicted of murder are about 50% more likelyto be innocent than other convicted murderers. Part of that disparity is tied to the race of thevictim. African Americans imprisoned for murder are more likely to be innocent if they wereconvicted of killing white victims

There are many other statistics proving racism in criminal justice, but it seems you only want to focus on one or two statistics. 

#46
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@Unpopular
When cops harass black neighborhoods, when they use excessive force with impunity, when they take black lives unjustly but it is presumed to be justified, these are all things BLM is about, not just the rates of death but the non punishment for death and force that is not warranted, and again it does not only apply to cops.
The police seem to get away with murder in general, though. The most egregious police shooting I have ever seen was Daniel Shaver, a white man who was shot to death for losing a high stakes game of Simon Says. If I had my way, those cops would hang. Instead they weren't even tried. Anecdotes are meaningless to me, do you have statistics showing that police are more likely to get off for shooting an unarmed black person than an unarmed white person? Again, maybe it's true! I have no investment in believing that it's not true! But you need to show me empirical evidence. If you're trying to convince me that American police are too trigger happy and get way too much leeway, you are wasting your time because I already agree with you. 

If a white person is killed by another white person, and especially a black person, there is a presumption that there will be fairness in the justice system, that the killer will be investigated, charged, and likely convicted.  When a black person is killed by someone, especially a cop, the presumption is the cop or white person was justified (does not apply to black on black crime). Even looking through these forums you can see the racism and disgusting analysis that cops are justified in killing "career criminals" which is ludicrous...... that is not how the justice system works. You aren't allowed to kill someone just because they have a violent criminal history, you aren't allowed to kill someone just because they are on drugs, yet this is a common mindset, and you see it being presented here  but want to pretend this is just made up and not factual without "statistics." 
No offense but this isn't evidence. I VERY strongly disagree with you that when a white person wrongs a black person the social presumption is that the white person is innocent. Very VERY strongly disagree...but whatever. Is there evidence of this bias in criminal convictions or sentencing?

I DO agree that juries are incredibly lenient with the police when they go on trial. I'm not 100% sure why this is. I guess it's easy for defense attorneys to convince them that the cops job is scary or something. I DO agree that a prior criminal record is not relevant to justifying a particular shooting. I DONT agree that any of this is evidence of systemic racism or what people who want to help black people (or just people in general) should focus on

Statistics say judging from exonerations, innocent black people are about seven times more likelyto be convicted of murder than innocent white people.

Statistics say black prisoners who are convicted of murder are about 50% more likelyto be innocent than other convicted murderers. Part of that disparity is tied to the race of thevictim. African Americans imprisoned for murder are more likely to be innocent if they wereconvicted of killing white victims
Sorry, but this isn't it. Your own source states: "A major cause of the high number ofblack murder exonerations is the high homicide rate in the black community—a tragedy thatkills many African Americans and sends many others to prison." Your source states that innocent black people are around 50% of those wrongfully convicted. Since black people commit around 50% of homicides in the US (https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls) , the vast majority of which victimize other black people, this is not evidence of systemic racism but instead more evidence of how this violent crime crisis victimizes even more innocents.

There's always going to be a background rate of wrongfully convicted people (if you have suggestions for how to lower the rate I am all ears), black people being almost the exact same percentage of those wrongfully convicted as the percentage of crimes committed isn't evidence of systemic racism...its actually strong evidence of the opposite, especially considering how biased the justice system is in favor of the rich, where black people are underrepresented. If asian people, who commit less than 5% of homicides, were 50% of those wrongfully convicted that would be strong evidence of systemic racism against asian people.

Editing: I also saw where you said that black people are more likely to be wrongfully convicted if the victim is white. I think a more parsimonious explanation than racism is that because America remains so segregated, black on black and white on white murders are more likely to occur between people who know each other and live in the same communities, whereas black on white or white on black murders are more likely to be between people who don’t know each other. Thus there is less often an obvious suspect with a known motivation than in most cases between people who know each other, and the perpetrator is less likely to be seen by witnesses who know who they are. Easy to see how that would up the rate of wrongfully convicted. What do you think? 
#47
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@thett3
Yeah, there was a study that found that BLM, which attempts to solve a nearly non-existent problem, is an utter disaster. Even Vox reported on it.

In places with BLM protests, there were 300 less police "homicides" (I'm not sure if they are referring to unjustified shootings or all shooting deaths in general. As you'll see soon, that doesn't matter).

These areas, however, also saw an uptick of between 1,000 and 6,000 murders. So, even on the low end, there are over 3x as many people dying as there would be without BLM.


#48
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@thett3
Do you actually think white people don’t care about black people? It seems to me like white people simultaneously worship and fear black people. Getting validation from a black person is something a lot of whites are clearly obsessed with 
White people love black culture. That’s not the same thing as caring about black people. The latter entails more than rooting for your favorite black athlete or celebrity, or wanting to be like that cool black kid in the class. It means caring about black issues as much as you care about those of your own race, and I think many white people fall short of that.

What black people and their sympathizers want is for black people to be treated like human beings. For starters, how about some convictions when their people are murdered? That’s why the Chauvin trial was so big. If a slow, conscious, on the spot execution caught on video would not have gotten a guilty verdict then nothing would.
#49
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@Double_R
 It means caring about black issues as much as you care about those of your own race, and I think many white people fall short of that.
Do you have evidence of that? Because numerous studies have found that whites have the lowest in-group bias of all American races, a fact which is born out by both of our observations about their stupid, suicidal behavior. What other group of people constantly engages in self flagellation to the same degree? You yourself admit that white people love black culture and want to be like the cool black kids. They’re obsessed 

What black people and their sympathizers want is for black people to be treated like human beings. For starters, how about some convictions when their people are murdered? That’s why the Chauvin trial was so big. If a slow, conscious, on the spot execution caught on video would not have gotten a guilty verdict then nothing would.
Do you have empirical evidence that white-on-black murders, of which there are far fewer than the reverse, are less likely to result in a conviction? By how much? 

#50
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@TheUnderdog
Just because two ideologies are both far-from-center does not mean that they are equally reasonable. 
#51
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@thett3
Do you have evidence of that? Because numerous studies have found that whites have the lowest in-group bias of all American races
That’s because white people have always been the majority in this country, so they have no need to see the world through a racial lens. A black person who heads into the corporate world is guaranteed to be one of very few black people in any space. Turn on your television, almost everyone you see is white except for that one black person that’s always included so they can say they are being diverse (aka tokenism).

When you grow up in a country that looks nothing like you, you would tend to see race everywhere as well. Imagine if the Avengers were all black with that one white superhero, or if every iteration of Star Trek had black captains and almost entirely black crews except for one in each because you know, diversity. I’m sure race would play a bigger picture in how you see things. 

And that’s before learning about the history of how your ancestors have all been treated because they looked like you.

Do you have empirical evidence that white-on-black murders, of which there are far fewer than the reverse, are less likely to result in a conviction?
No, because that’s not what this conversation about. You can cite statistics all day from behind your phone or computer screen, black people and BLM supporters are reacting to what they are seeing with their own eyes, both on social media and in real life in their own neighborhoods.

Will Smith put it best when he said “racism isn’t getting worse, it’s getting filmed”. These are peoples experiences, and while that doesn’t mean a whole lot when it comes to proving that there is an actual tangible difference in things like the number of black people killed per violent crime vs white people or whatever specific category you want to carve out, the point is that these people aren’t just making things up nor is this some plot to fake reality for political power or whatever stupid conspiracy the right loves to allege.

If you want to have a conversation about race you need to acknowledge what others are actually talking about. If someone shows you a video of a black person being shot in the back and your reaction is to quote statistics you found on google you’re not attempting to do that.
#52
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@Double_R
That’s because white people have always been the majority in this country, so they have no need to see the world through a racial lens.
Confusing discourse.... 

You "Black people are not just asking for policy concessions, they’re asking for people to care" 

Me "Do you really think white people don't care about black people? They seem obsessed in a pretty gross way" 

You "They care, but not about the things that actually matter, like black issues" 

Me "That's weird, since studies show that whites have the least in-group bias of any racial group"

You "That's right, and here's why!" 

I mean okay, but if white people, who you agree have the least in-group bias and explained for why you think that is, don't care about black people then we can be all but certain that black people don't care about white people to an even greater extent, no?

IDK it's just kinda weird that you're having a go at the group that you think is the least racist. Do you think we should just return to complete segregation? Give black people their own country so they don't have to be a minority anymore? 

No, because that’s not what this conversation about. You can cite statistics all day from behind your phone or computer screen, black people and BLM supporters are reacting to what they are seeing with their own eyes, both on social media and in real life in their own neighborhoods.
It's 100% the only thing that the conversation is about. You stated that black people only want to be treated like human beings, like having their murderers convicted. I asked if you have evidence that whites routinely get away with murdering black people, and you said it doesn't matter. What am I supposed to say, then? I'm not allowed to ask for evidence? I just have to shut up and listen to what I'm told? Why? How is this not a religion?

Will Smith put it best when he said “racism isn’t getting worse, it’s getting filmed”. These are peoples experiences, and while that doesn’t mean a whole lot when it comes to proving that there is an actual tangible difference in things like the number of black people killed per violent crime vs white people or whatever specific category you want to carve out, the point is that these people aren’t just making things up nor is this some plot to fake reality for political power or whatever stupid conspiracy the right loves to allege.
I would never argue that racism doesn't exist, or that it isn't a bad thing. Racism is the unfortunate but inevitable consequence of living in a multicultural society. I WOULD argue that racism is not a one-way street and that being victimized in violent crimes is a lot worse than most incidents of racism. I hate our societies obsession with race, but if we're supposed to have a "conversation about race" I don't understand why it only ever goes in one direction. Real life isn't a movie, and in any real conflict both "sides" have legitimate grievances 

I also don't really think it's a conspiracy to believe that the perception of being a victim gives people power in this society. That seems overwhelmingly obvious to me. Look at the constant hate crime hoaxes on college campuses, or how "trauma" is discussed non-stop, etc. Like I said earlier in this thread there is absolutely zero attempt to build a positive identity for anyone. Victimhood does give people a lot of social status in 21st century America, which creates a powerful incentive to play up the severity of your victimization. That doesn't mean there aren't actual victims, of course.
#53
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Anecdotes are meaningless to me, do you have statistics showing that police are more likely to get off for shooting an unarmed black person than an unarmed white person?

There are statistics for a lot of things, and what you are asking for is fair, but not fair to only presume there is one criteria to prove racism in criminal justice. Based on exonerations, statistics show a black person is 3.5 times more likely to be falsely accused of sexual assault, not sure why that is. Some believe it is because they are misidentified more often, but I have not confirmed that. Based on exonerations, innocent black people spend more time in jail than innocent white people, probably because they have public defenders more often. Now this is not because of their race, but because black people are more likely to be poor and unable to afford an attorney, but that does not change the statistics in numbers.  If you look up false confessions, many black people plead guiltyto drug possession, but lab tests later showed theyhad no illegal drugs. This impacts black people more, as they are arrested more for drugs, and many studies show cops themselves falsely plant drugs on black people. Laws that should apply to everyone equally, tend to harm blacks the most such as drug laws, with black people using drugs at similar rates to whites, but being arrested and therefore convicted and punished far more often. Studies have found that theyare more likely to be stopped by the police, detained pretrial, charged with more serious crimes, and therefore sentenced moreharshly than white people. Black people tend to live in densely populated areas with high crime, that are subject to "broken windows" policing, zero tolerance policing that punishes people for minor infractions like loitering, littering, etc., again placing black people in more confrontations with officers, increasing their exposure to risk of harassment or mistreatment or arrest. If you look up Rockerfeller Drug Laws, it shows how things like mandatory minimum sentences have significantly punished black people, especially when they made crack cocaine a higher offense than more expensive (white people) cocaine. There are many studies showing  evidence of racial biasagainst black people at all parts in the court process from prosecutors to judges and juries making decisions about charges, verdicts and sentencing disproportionately. This link shows many of them at the end.




I VERY strongly disagree with you that when a white person wrongs a black person the social presumption is that the white person is innocent.

That is not what I said, what I said was if a white person is killed by another white person, and especially a black person, there is a presumption that there will be fairness in the justice system, that the killer will be investigated, charged, and likely convicted.  This is to contrast the killing of black people, where things like bias are taken into account at many levels. For example, look through these forums and you will see several people argue that certain force is warranted, and even killing may be warranted, if a black person was a "career criminal" or on drugs, which is false. Police are legally and morally not allowed to shoot someone just because they have a very rough past, yet until the black lives matter movement, you would always see black victims of police portrayed in the media as horrible people, thugs, exaggerating their backstory, etc., anything to make it sound like the person "got what was coming to them" or the police were acting reasonably given the person was bad in general. They also tend to solve homicides against black people less often for a number of reasons, but it explains why people feel "black lives don't matter" when their bodies are seen of as disposable or not worthwhile to pour resources into investigating the way you investigate other crimes. 


I DO agree that juries are incredibly lenient with the police when they go on trial. I'm not 100% sure why this is.

I agree, and until the last few years, I have always tended to side with the police, believing very strongly in law and order. I still think police have a very important, tough job, but I think it would be naive to think they can check their biases at their door. We all have bias, and police have more power than the average person, as does everyone involved in the criminal justice process. To think there is no bias or no different treatment does not seem to be supported by the statistics or anecdotes. I do not think every claim by black lives matter is correct by any means, but I think there should be criminal justice reform toward accountability for cops and more equal punishment for the races. I do not know every solution but we could work toward better attorneys for poor people, less strict policing for minor or non violent crimes, more training, more cameras, more resources invested in solving black murders, maybe even looking at gun laws. I am open to many ideas. 

#54
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You "Black people are not just asking for policy concessions, they’re asking for people to care"
 
Me "Do you really think white people don't care about black people? They seem obsessed in a pretty gross way"
 
You "They care, but not about the things that actually matter, like black issues"
 
Me "That's weird, since studies show that whites have the least in-group bias of any racial group"
 
You "That's right, and here's why!"

You are talking about different things.
 
Studies showing less racial bias in white people does not mean they care about black issues, in fact it supports the opposite. People are far less likely to care about something they don’t relate to.
 
I specifically stated “many white people fall short of that”. It wasn’t an assessment of the entire white race. There are plenty that do and there are plenty that don’t. Opinions vary, it’s not that simple.
 
I think few people would argue that anyone who hoists a confederate flag is likely to care about black issues, yet they are not a small and insignificant group in our country and are almost entirely white.
 
Assessing a racial group as a whole and acknowledging issues within that racial group are two separate things. When talking about causes, that relates to the former. When talking about results, that relates to the latter.
 
I hope that clarifies things.

I mean okay, but if white people, who you agree have the least in-group bias and explained for why you think that is, don't care about black people then we can be all but certain that black people don't care about white people to an even greater extent, no?
There is no reason they should. White people are the dominant group in our society. They own more wealth and are in primary control of nearly every local government, state government, court, and law enforcement agency in the country. So to suggest that minority communities, especially a community that has been oppressed throughout the vast majority of this country’s history should concern themselves with the problems of the majority who oppressed them and is already in control of everything largely because of it makes no sense.
 
So I understand the impulse to act as if racial animus is equally wrong no matter where it comes from, but white animus towards black people and black animus towards white people are completely different things.

It's 100% the only thing that the conversation is about
If you want to know what this conversation is about, scroll back to the start of this thread and read each of my responses in context. The only points I have argued here are that All Lives Matter is a stupid slogan, and why it is wrong to characterize BLM in the way that many here are.
 
If all you want is a statistical debate I’m not interested. This is a monumentally complicated subject so anyone can find statistics on this to prove whatever conclusion they want. I’d rather discuss philosophical points because that is what tends to determine which statistics people find compelling.

I asked if you have evidence that whites routinely get away with murdering black people, and you said it doesn't matter. What am I supposed to say, then?
It doesn’t matter within the context of this conversation because I am not making that claim. I am not criticizing the conclusion that the reality doesn’t match the rhetoric, I am criticizing blindness to the issues being raised, the strawmanning of those raising these issues, and the complete lack of empathy demonstrated in both examples.

I hate our societies obsession with race, but if we're supposed to have a "conversation about race" I don't understand why it only ever goes in one direction.
What other direction is it supposed to go in? I understand perfectly well pushing back against going too far, like when someone suggests that white people are not allowed to have their own opinions on racial issues (thinking about White Fragility) or when someone labels a white person’s argument as “whitesplaining”. I find stuff like this to be equally repulsive. But pushing back against that is not reversing the direction of the conversation.
 
The issue I see here is that white people have an incredible tendency to make these conversations about themselves. All Lives Matter is a perfect example of this. If you are expressing your grievances to someone and they respond by talking about theirs, or by acting as if they are just as impacted as you are even though they’re certainly not and would have never brought it up otherwise… I’m sure you would react to them the same way.

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What other direction is it supposed to go in? I understand perfectly well pushing back against going too far, like when someone suggests that white people are not allowed to have their own opinions on racial issues (thinking about White Fragility) or when someone labels a white person’s argument as “whitesplaining”. I find stuff like this to be equally repulsive. But pushing back against that is not reversing the direction of the conversation.
let's focus on this because I think it's the most important point I have to make. I absolutely hate the racial grievance. I think it's immoral, dehumanizing, and racist...but it is CLEARLY where we are at as a society. You ask me "what other direction is a conversation about race supposed to go in?"

Well...let's take all the bad things white people have done to black people,  what we "owe" for stuff like slavery and Jim Crow, and we will call it X. X is what everyone has been obsessed with the past five years. But if we are determined to decide who owes who what, we need to consider the entire picture. We can call everything bad that has happened in reverse as Y. As I mentioned earlier, black-on-white violent crimes are about 500,000 more a year than the reverse, and this pattern has held true for decades. Probably since the 1960's crime waves began, so we are talking about a half century of excess  victimization in violent crimes, ultimately resulting in millions more robberies, muggings, assaults, rapes, and murders. And unlike any victims of slavery and most victims of jim crow, the victims are still alive or would be if they weren't murdered.  Throw in on top of that a half century of fairly large wealth transfers  through LBJ's great society programs that yes helped poor people of all races, but on net represent a large wealth transfer from white people to black (although it's kind of our fault that they were in that situation in the first place so that is certainly mitigated) and then smaller things like Affirmative Action policies, etc. It doesn't seem like Y is...insignificant. 

How much greater is X than Y? Is it at all? How can we tell? Is it even possible to quantify this? Should we TRY?  I say no. There is no way to quantify this sort of thing, and to try to do so is sheer folly and just exposes peoples biases (which is why Y is never even considered in the first place.) If there is anything I want to get through peoples head it's that there are only three options in a racially diverse society. We are all treated as individuals and the differences start to wash away, as it seems that they were during the late 90s-2015ish timeframe. We have formalized segregation, like an Austro-Hungary type situation. Or we fight. I would prefer either of the first two to the latter...it's clear which one the modern rhetoric will lead to, particularly once self-loathing whites are removed from the gene pool a generation or two from now. 

If you feel a sense of disgust from what I have to say about Y, I don't blame you because assigning people to groups and then bad mouthing the group IS disgusting and dehumanizing. You should consider why everyone is okay with dehumanizing whites in this fashion but you feel (rightfully) a sense of disgust when someone treats black people like a monolith who are all responsible for the sins of a minority, or for people who are long dead. 
#56
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The recent evolution of the human race is such that everything that has occurred is no more or less a natural process....And if you pay attention, you will we see that said process is ongoing.

Keeping on about it won't change the past, and the future will develop as it will.

Though future development will perhaps be influenced by keeping on about it.

We can also apply the same logic to environmental issues.....Past events shaping the present, shaping the future.


The future is bright....The future is Chinese coloured........Only joking.


Nonetheless...If we do eventually manage to escape this solar system, it would be interesting to see how the crew is anatomically defined.

Who will be in command?......Kirk, Chekov, Sulu or perhaps Uhura.. 




 
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You should consider why everyone is okay with dehumanizing whites in this fashion but you feel (rightfully) a sense of disgust when someone treats black people like a monolith who are all responsible for the sins of a minority, or for people who are long dead.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.

This has nothing to do with dehumanizing whites, or blaming white people for the sins of their ancestors. That is a complete straw man. No one is keeping this X vs Y tally because it is irrelevant to the argument. No one is saying white people have done more bad things to black people therefore they should pay, we’re not talking about punishment. The argument is quite simple, and here it is;

The fact that black people as a community are in the bottom of nearly every societal health indicator, from wealth, to family units, to even physical health... is not an accident or result of mere chance. It is the result of systemic issues built and perpetuated over centuries, its effects still linger on black communities to this day, and it doesn’t matter whether anyone upholding them today has any racist intent. If a bullet pierces your skull, it doesn’t matter whether the person who pulled the trigger meant to kill you, either way you’re still dead.

If you are getting defensive or feel disgusted when black people or anyone else make arguments that point this out, then the entire point just sailed right over your head. It’s not about you. It’s about the factual reasons the black community fell into this space, and how we get them out.

But all of this is an assessment at 30,000 feet. None of it applies to the individual. That is of course where this gets complicated, but there is no way to address the complicated if we can’t get in the same page about the simple fact of what this is about in the first place.

I absolutely hate the racial grievance
I do as well, but I think we find ourselves on opposite ends because I recognize something... when someone is expressing their grievances to you, don’t expect them to stop and especially don’t expect them to listen to you until you acknowledge what they have to say. The Trump like reaction to BLM is exactly why we can’t get past this and start talking about policy, because policy discussions must begin with a shared sense of reality, and that can only happen if we start talking to each other and not past each other.

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You have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.

This has nothing to do with dehumanizing whites, or blaming white people for the sins of their ancestors. That is a complete straw man. No one is keeping this X vs Y tally because it is irrelevant to the argument. No one is saying white people have done more bad things to black people therefore they should pay, we’re not talking about punishment. The argument is quite simple, and here it is;
That is NOT the case. It is ABSOLUTELY the case that white people are demonized pretty much constantly...just go search "white people" or "white men" on any social media platform and you'll see how ubiquitous it is. But I haven't seen you make these arguments so credit where it is due

The fact that black people as a community are in the bottom of nearly every societal health indicator, from wealth, to family units, to even physical health... is not an accident or result of mere chance. It is the result of systemic issues built and perpetuated over centuries, its effects still linger on black communities to this day, and it doesn’t matter whether anyone upholding them today has any racist intent. If a bullet pierces your skull, it doesn’t matter whether the person who pulled the trigger meant to kill you, either way you’re still dead.
That likely isn't due to racism, though. I reject the notion that America is a systemically racist country and have never seen any good evidence to prove that it is. This is because black people started at the bottom and the rug was pulled out from under families trying to make it to the middle class in the 1960s. The exact same trends that impacted poor black people have impacted poor white people, because the economic and social changes of the past half century have done a number on lower class Americans. It's a class issue, and it really doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that big capital is completely on board with the "woke" narrative. Part of the reason I find the race baiting stuff so repulsive is not only because I view it as a direct threat to me and my family, but because it deliberately obscures the real issue where there could be unity instead of division.

I do as well, but I think we find ourselves on opposite ends because I recognize something... when someone is expressing their grievances to you, don’t expect them to stop and especially don’t expect them to listen to you until you acknowledge what they have to say. The Trump like reaction to BLM is exactly why we can’t get past this and start talking about policy, because policy discussions must begin with a shared sense of reality, and that can only happen if we start talking to each other and not past each other.
What makes you so confident that the left has the right side of reality, though? Earlier in this thread I've asked for statistics and was told I should instead listen to peoples experiences. I refuse to base my opinion on just listening to what I'm told, and will seek out facts for myself. Survey data has shown that on issues relating to race and policing, conservatives hold views objectively more in line with reality: https://twitter.com/ZachG932/status/1364024711592738817

Like I said to unpopular, I agree that American police are too trigger happy but I don't see evidence that they are particularly racially motivated. I have certainly never seen any reason that this is THE issue we need to focus on above all else. I mean, BLM protests have had a serious impact on American policing. Namely, they have drawn back and the resulting breakdown in law and order from a lighter police presence and the riots has emboldened hardened criminals. This is why murder rates are absolutely skyrocketing, and returning to their 1990s peaks, or all time highs in some cities: https://mtracey.substack.com/p/media-activists-do-not-care-about
 
I mean, the same amount people died in the 2020 protests/riots alone than unarmed black people killed by the police in 2019 (and keep in mind that some of those were probably justified): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests How is the side that enables and justifies this chaos, on the basis of views that are completely out of touch with reality, the side of objective reality
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Earlier in this thread I've asked for statistics and was told I should instead listen to peoples experiences
The way I look at this is, when someone says "listen to their experiences", I think of it like being an insurance office.

If someone comes in and says "my house got burned down. I didn't do it, though" should you just dole out money to them? Absolutely not. You should look for actual evidence.

And that is essentially what this is. When someone or a group claims "discrimination" or whatever, they are doing so because they want some type of handout (ie. affirmative action, reparations, etc.)

So, should you just take the word ("listen to their experience") of someone who benefits if you believe them, or should you approach that with a critical mind? I'd argue the latter. 
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That likely isn't due to racism, though. I reject the notion that America is a systemically racist country and have never seen any good evidence to prove that it is. This is because black people started at the bottom and the rug was pulled out from under families trying to make it to the middle class in the 1960s. 
Them saying systemic racism isn’t real and then pointing right to it.

Again, it has nothing to do with whether there is any current intent to hold down people of color. We’re talking about a system that was built on racism and even though those rules have since changed, the effects of those rules still remain prevalent today. That is systemic racism.

We live in a society where wealth begets wealth, and where the wealth in our country was largely built during a time period where the rules for all were not the same. Plus Kids born into poor families are far more likely to be poor when raising their own kids, this cycle is basic human nature. So while I’m sure you might claim it’s all about the individual, I have a hard time believing you would see it that way if your family’s lower class standing could be traced all the way back to a period where your ancestors were regarded as property.

What makes you so confident that the left has the right side of reality, though? Earlier in this thread I've asked for statistics and was told I should instead listen to peoples experiences.
I never said the left did. In fact I said earlier that I don’t think the reality is as bad as many woke activists would have us all believe. Once again, remember the context of this conversation; I’m not arguing BLM is right on everything, I’m arguing against the idea that this is all about easily manipulable people talking to the streets because their political overlords told them to be angry. I’m expressing that they have legitimate points, even if the other side does as well.

Regarding my comment on peoples experiences, I was talking about having conversations with people and recognizing that you aren’t going to get people to listen to you by quoting something you read in the internet when they are coming from a place of lived experience. At the very least you need to show that you understand where they are coming from.

I mean, the same amount people died in the 2020 protests/riots alone than unarmed black people killed by the police in 2019
This isn’t just about numbers, in fact that has almost nothing to do with it. If a 747 falls out of the sky killing 200 people and the cause is never found, that affects more than just the 200 people who were killed, it impacts every single person who steps on a plane afterward.

If you’ve ever spent much time around black spaces one thing you’d know is that black people almost never call the cops, they tend to believe it will only make things worse. Imagine what it’s like to live in fear of the very people who are tasked with protecting you. Now you might write that off as unreasonableness, but that’s why I say listen to people’s experiences. People may not always feel the way they do for good reasons, but they don’t feel that way for no reason. And when that feeling is shared throughout an entire racial community, it is quite arrogant to presume you understand their situation better than they do.