Fairy Tail Mafia DP1

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FourTrouble
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I'd like everyone to weigh in on the following points about Pie:

1. The internal inconsistency of viewing Earth & me as his top scumreads. In my experience, townies usually try to solve the game as a whole, whereas scum tend to list out individual reads, which often ends up producing internal inconsistencies of this very type. 

2. Pie claims that I'm scum if Earth flips town, which is to say, Pie believes I'm so scummy that he's willing to believe I'm a scum who randomly faked a guilty on a townie rather than town. Pie has yet to list reasons for why I'm so scummy that he's willing to believe something that almost never happens (i.e. extremely unlikely). 

Given these two points, is there any reason to believe Pie is town? 
FourTrouble
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@coal
Response to post 510. 

That is the kind of risk you've taken before.  
No it's not. I've never done anything close to this. Nor would I. 

Luna has, but not me. 
FourTrouble
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I don't take unnecessary risks. That's a false claim by Coal. 

Spreading false paranoia = scummy. Coal is now below whiteflame on my reads list. 
coal
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@ILikePie5
Are you scum reading me?  Because if so, I'm comfortable leaving at that.

But I don't think you are.  

I think you're trying to get the FT-monkey off your back, which I understand. 

If there is something you want to know, ask.  Otherwise, I don't think my reads are controversial other than an Oro, and I've stated my disagreement with FT and others both before and after Post 64.  

Reason I shifted focus is because Earth is the more viable lynch, in view of FT's discovery.  


FourTrouble
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In fact, I challenge Coal to identify a game where I've taken a similar risk.
FourTrouble
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@MisterChris
I'd like to have a conversation with you to address your concerns about me & to get your thoughts on Earth/Pie. 
FourTrouble
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@Speedrace
Before you hammer Earth, please list your reads on everyone & the game state as a whole, and allow time for people to ask you questions about them. 
RationalMadman
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@FourTrouble
Lynch Coal
coal
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@FourTrouble
I don't take unnecessary risks. 
"Unnecessary." That's quite a word, isn't it.  Subjective.  Contextual.  Of course you don't take unnecessary risks, from your perspective. 
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@FourTrouble
The last time you were scum and played with Tim on DDO. 
ILikePie5
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@FourTrouble
I'd like everyone to weigh in on the following points about Pie:

1. The internal inconsistency of viewing Earth & me as his top scumreads. In my experience, townies usually try to solve the game as a whole, whereas scum tend to list out individual reads, which often ends up producing internal inconsistencies of this very type. 
I’ve always listed out individual reads since DDO days. You rely your reads solely on behavior. I rely mine on a spectrum of role and behavior depending on each individual person.

2. Pie claims that I'm scum if Earth flips town, which is to say, Pie believes I'm so scummy that he's willing to believe I'm a scum who randomly faked a guilty on a townie rather than town. Pie has yet to list reasons for why I'm so scummy that he's willing to believe something that almost never happens (i.e. extremely unlikely). 
I never said I thought it was random. I think it’s deliberate and I’ve seen people do it. It’s literally why I brought up Wylted cause he did it like 2 games ago. Day Cop roles to begin with are rare, which you probably did not know cause you’ve never played on DART. I find you going from wagon to wagon as scummy.

Given these two points, is there any reason to believe Pie is town? 
You really want my hide don’t you lol. I’m really gonna have fun laughing at you in endgame 
ILikePie5
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@coal
Reason I shifted focus is because Earth is the more viable lynch, in view of FT's discovery.  
Could you please expand on this?
FourTrouble
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@coal
What was this game called? 

You're making stuff up about my meta. 
RationalMadman
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When I inevitably die this night phase, Coal and Whiteflame must face off next day phase. One of them is scum, minimum. Do not let them slide by.
FourTrouble
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btw anyone who thinks I'm scummy in this game needs to consider a couple things:

1. There's plenty of meta available on DDO. My play here is exactly like my town games, and very far from my scum games. I'm a very bad scum player. 

2. The players who know me have confirmed this in this game already. 

I understand that I'm unknown, and also that my play is different from what you're used to. But remember, different doesn't equal scummy. It's just different. 
coal
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@FourTrouble
That is the kind of risk you've taken before.  
No it's not. I've never done anything close to this. Nor would I. 

Luna has, but not me. 

I don't take unnecessary risks. That's a false claim by Coal. 

Spreading false paranoia = scummy. Coal is now below whiteflame on my reads list. 
Here's my issue.  As scum you are never this engaged, unless it's either (1) been a while since you've played or (2) you've come up with a master plan to win as scum which intrigues you.  You're not really the "belt and suspenders" type of scum player, and tend to be all but overtly hostile to playing as scum ... because figuring out the puzzle is something you enjoy a lot more than trying to prevent others from doing it.  

The distributed reasoning exercise is also something you take a key interest in.  Getting other's thoughts.  Collaborating.  Evaluating what other player's reactions mean.  Informing others what impact you think those actions have.  This is the gravamen of your town meta, of which you are generally aware.  You've moved from player to player, evaluating alternative theories to build an impression of the game.  

But you're not interacting with whiteflame much.  You're focusing on Pie which we both know is a lost cause because by now it is clear that you've seen through what he's doing. 

Maybe it's the novelty of breaking the game on DP1.  A notable accomplishment.  And for now, that's the theory I'm operating under.  But we approach the point where continuing this with pie isn't adding value.  Diminishing returns.  Up until the point where I asked him to post reads. 

Now he's done that.  And we'll see what others think, ideally before someone hammers (although it is not clear that person will be speed).  Others' responses to the pie situation will likely be the only useful thing to follow.  

The problem is that I can see you doing this as scum, knowing your scum meta and deliberately playing against it.  And this lingers in the back of my mind.  So I don't really care whether I'm above or below whiteflame for you.  
RationalMadman
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Unvote Coal
VTL whiteflame
I think both are scum but I am fine either way, one must be forced to out so if everyone is reluctant to vote Coal, I am fine shifting onto whiteflame. Especially as Speedrace is now here so CC will occur if WF fakeclaims well.

FourTrouble
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So Coal is spreading false paranoia about me by referring to non-existent games from my past... something to keep in mind. 
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@FourTrouble
Do you really want to be the most townread person in the game?
FourTrouble
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Do you really want to be the most townread person in the game?
I want to be read based on the reality of my play & meta.

And I want accurate analysis of Pie's alignment, which requires accurate analysis of my meta. 

Whether I'm the "most" townread has nothing to do with this. 
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@FourTrouble
Your interaction with pie is consistent with your town meta.  And you know that.  

What is your point?
FourTrouble
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@coal
Post 510. 

Pie believes it's likely that I'm scum if Earth flips town. You suggest the theory is plausible because I've done similar things as scum. Your claim is false.

Pie needs to reevaluate. If he doesn't, it's strongly indicate that he's scum. You are not making this easy by adding "justification" for his theory. 
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Pie needs to reevaluate. 
And if he does, then what?
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If he doesn't, it's strongly indicate that he's scum. You are not making this easy by adding "justification" for his theory. 

The underlined is wrong.  FT's affiliation (which I have read as town) has absolutely nothing to do with Pie's reads.
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@ILikePie5
If earth flips town he's miller who appears guilty on cop reports, just clarifying something because you have made a mechanically wrong statement about how his flip relates to FT.
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@FourTrouble
My current reads, from most town to most scum:

Oro - WHAT? How? #1?
Luna - ABOVE ME AND MC LOL! 
Coal - 😂
MC - 👍
RM - Right... Only this
whiteflame - 👍
Pie - 😂
Speed - 👍
Earth - Fair enough, given you have ignored thematic analysis

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@ILikePie5
Most Town:
Pie
RM
Oro
MC
Lunatic
Coal
WF
Speed
FT
Earth
I agree with this list a lot, Earth being so low isn't what I see and FT definitely not that low for me.
RationalMadman
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I will now do a ranking, this is based on what I want others to believe my reads where when I inevitably die N1. This is not necessarily my true rankings but generally most will be accurate relative to others.

Most-Least Town:

MC
Myself
Pie
FT
Speedrace (I think he'd be much more keen if he were scum especially post-return, it's a tell I noticed that's been consistent for him, he tries harder when he feels a team he interacts with relies on him, such as the interaction in a scum chat)
Lunatic
Earth
Oromagi
Coal (his aggression and activity in the recent posts has somewhat made me consider he just is very bad at projecting town vibes in general, this is low enough on my rankings to still justify a lynch and pressure to force a claim)
Whiteflame (there is no way he'd be this laid back and passive, especially not as he's an expert on the theme, he's way too 'background' to what town WF would be in this game, especially when he's cool with lynching RM to Coal's request. Town WF wouldn't find it funny or go along with it when Coal asks to OMGUS-lynch uncc'd Doranbalt night cop in this game.

RationalMadman
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To be clear, Everyone below Lunatic is equally scummy for different reasons at this point in the game now. Oromagi's sudden absense and lapse in activity as the day ends is a scumtell he has.
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Earth being lynched gains us very little at this point, I believe there'd be a miller in the setup especially if there's 2 cops.

I believe that there is also a lawyer if FT is real.

Earth being scummy doesn't mean lynching him is a positive thing, he is scummy regardless of alignment, lazy as well. He hasn't significantly scumtold other than being lazy.