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@3RU7AL
I haven't seen it. Why do you ask?
The determinism syllogism
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@Theweakeredge
Right, but there can be an event caused by multiple things, no?The existence of x does not preclude the existence of y.
EVERY EVENT HAS MULTIPLE CAUSES AND MULTIPLE UNCAUSES
THERE IS NO CLEVER MIX OF "CAUSED" AND "UNCAUSED" THAT CHANGES THIS FACT
(IFF) CAUSED (THEN) NOT "FREE"
(IFF) UNCAUSED (THEN) NOT "WILL"
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@Sum1hugme
I haven't seen it. Why do you ask?
DEVS is about using present information to reconstruct past events.
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@fauxlaw
Yes, still another who says aberrant behavior is at the root of all bad actors. Sure, but what is the cause of aberrant behavior? A tumor in the brain, says Eagleman, as if he can stop at that. But, the tumor is not root cause. Tumors can develop for a variety of reasons, some of which we cannot control.
A tumor was JUST ONE OF MANY EXAMPLE CAUSES.
And if you watched the end of the speech, you'd know that "impulse-control" (which is highly-correlated with criminal behavior) can be re-learned through laboratory conditioning.
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@Sum1hugme
Well we have every inductive reason to believe that my statement about the demon is true.
Based on what exactly ?
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@fauxlaw
Have a care for what goes in the pie hole,
What if you lack "impulse-control" ?
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@Barney
Limited free will, does not equal free will absolutely does not exist. If you said chocolate does not exist, but I showed a single chocolate chip, that would negate. However, if you instead argued there was a chocolate shortage, that single piece of evidence would be a poor counter.
PLEASE PROVIDE A "SINGLE EXAMPLE" OF A THOUGHT OR ACTION OR OTHER EVENT THAT IS (NEITHER) CAUSED (NOR) UNCAUSED
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@3RU7AL
What if you lack "impulse-control" ?
Get it. It's called self-improvement. It's called refusing to think like a victim. I know today's psycho babble is all about victimization, but, what if I decide I'm not a victim to everything around me? I have. "Oh, poor mer" is not in my vocabulary.
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@3RU7AL
Do these hypothetical prisoners have any conscious and or subconscious memories of their lives before their confinement ?
Why do memories matter? If they're still capable of reflection, surely that is enough demonstration of a free and unconstrained will?
A blind and deaf woman could still reflect on her memories. Similarly, a person with malnourished beginnings could still reflect (however little) on the life he currently has.
Is it possible that these pre-existing memories are the features of the cave on which the echo is shaped ?
I read all of your posts in this thread to understand what this actually meant and I hope I'm not veering off-topic. I'm assuming that pre-existing memories are caused and that the cave in which these humans live limits the range of possible memories. For illustration purposes, I guess the limited range of possible memories makes it impossible for me to imagine a new shade of color (i.e. David Hume's missing shade of blue) beyond what I have experienced through perception. Again, this is just the limitation of my mind.
I believe the limitations do not constrict the possible existence of a free will. I believe you're still free to reflect on the features of the cave in spite of the fact that you'll be ignorant(for the rest of your life) of the facts outside of the cave.
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@Lemming
I've just learned that it's now possible to be an artist satirizing the absurdity of the determinism/free will debate.
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@fauxlaw
Get it. It's called self-improvement. It's called refusing to think like a victim. I know today's psycho babble is all about victimization, but, what if I decide I'm not a victim to everything around me? I have. "Oh, poor mer" is not in my vocabulary.
You're still dodging the point.
Do you think your "can do attitude" was CAUSED or do you think your "can do attitude" was UNCAUSED.
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@fauxlaw
That 100-page wonder is the epitome of the brain tumor he proposes as cause of a serial killer’s attitude, and that, therefore, he is victim of his own killer propensity. Absurd hogwash......Sam Harris is a buffoon who never figured out he didn’t need to pee his pants as a toddler. He pees his brain on a constant, adult basis...
I think this specific post you made is interesting (I've never read Sam Harris). I think that the quoted parts above are hilarious.
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@MarkWebberFan
Why do memories matter? If they're still capable of reflection,
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.
Without memories, the will does not exist.
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@MarkWebberFan
I believe the limitations do not constrict the possible existence of a free will. I believe you're still free to reflect on the features of the cave in spite of the fact that you'll be ignorant(for the rest of your life) of the facts outside of the cave.
ALL EVENTS AND THOUGHTS AND MEMORIES AND ACTIONS AND INTENTIONS AND TENDENCIES ARE (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
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@3RU7AL
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.
Who told you that? Your sock puppet? Not a relevant, nor credible source. Never had amnesia? Amazing what can be thought, in spite of it.
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@3RU7AL
My can-do attitude was caused. By me. My father taught me the principle of free agency and he said, "Go do it." So, I did. He did not tell me what to decide; he left that up to me.
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@3RU7AL
"impulse-control"
can be learned by personal commitment
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@MarkWebberFan
thanks
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.Without memories, the will does not exist.
I believe we have conflicting elements of autonomy. In free will, all of a person's actions fall within the range of possibilities allowed by her environment (i.e. living on earth). In addition, what she sees as other possible alternatives (i.e. flying without wings) among which she decides to dream of are reflections. These reflections do not need memories as a prerequisite. I find it incredibly unfulfilling when I know that questions of free will depend on preceding conditions. IMHO, the present is equally important.
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@3RU7AL
See above.
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@MarkWebberFan
These reflections do not need memories as a prerequisite.
Does an infant dream of eating lobster ?
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@fauxlaw
"impulse-control"can be learned by personal commitment
How does one learn "personal commitment" ?
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@fauxlaw
My can-do attitude was caused. By me. My father taught me
What caused "you" ?
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@fauxlaw
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.Who told you that? Your sock puppet? Not a relevant, nor credible source. Never had amnesia? Amazing what can be thought, in spite of it.
Have you ever had a stroke ?
Have you ever forgotten language itself ?
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@MarkWebberFan
ALL EVENTS AND THOUGHTS AND MEMORIES AND ACTIONS AND INTENTIONS AND TENDENCIES ARE (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
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@3RU7AL
Without memories, the mind is incapable of thought.
Yes, that is true. Memory is normally considered the key to acquiring words and getting used to grammatical patterns in a language.
Without a language, you can't have thoughts. Many writers and philosophers have drawn a strong connection between language and thought. Oscar Wilde called language “the parent, and not the child, of thought.” Ludwig Wittgenstein claimed that “the limits of my language mean the limits of my world.” And Bertrand Russell stated that the role of language is “to make possible thoughts which could not exist without it.”
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@3RU7AL
stroke
Even a stroke does not cause complete cognitive shutdown, according to https://www.stroke.org.uk/effects-of-stroke/memory-and-thinking
No, I've never had a stroke
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@3RU7AL
What caused "you" ?
That has two answers. Physically, may parents. Spiritually, God, the Father.
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@3RU7AL
How does one learn "personal commitment" ?
By doing it. Repeat step one.
Consciousness refutes determinism