The problem of suffering

Author: secularmerlin

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#121
ludofl3x
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@ronjs
Atheists complain the God does nothing to end rape and murder, but also complain that he ordered the killing of the cananites or the global deluge that took out those whose thoughts were only evil continually even refering to the old testament God as an ogre or worse.
No, this is incorrect. The complaint on the various genocides isn't that he doesn't also stop suffering. It's that (a) an all powerful god shouldn't need anyone to do any killing on his behalf and (b) that you can't say a god who commits genocide is also all good and all loving, because he clearly doesn't love the amalekites, for example. He shouldn't need to destroy every human being ever born, and almost all of land life itself, because he was upset at how his creation turned out. He's all powerful and literally no solution is unavailable to him, yet he chooses to drown everything, including animals for some reason. 

God can and does do whatever He pleases, and he has a plan in place to end hunger and suffering to those who choose his grace.
And it would then follow that god is choosing to let children who've never heard of him by nature of being born in some non-god affiliate country, to starve. When he could, in fact, solve both problems instantly. Right?

Its impossible to know without knowing the creators intentions.
Well then how do YOU know?
#122
Polytheist-Witch
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@ronjs
None of us deserve Gods grace, it is a gift, but a gift is meaningless if it is not accepted.
That's like saying no person deserves their parents love.  What kind of god creates children to be so awful he kills them off? None. Christians are going to be so disappointed. 
#123
Stephen
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@ronjs
God can and does do whatever He pleases, and he has a plan

 Does he?   Christians have been spinning that yarn for millennia now. What is the plan?  I started a thread on this once and no one knew. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5332-can-christians-prove-god-had-a-plan-for-us-all

Christians do not even know what the "will "of god, to be done is, either. I di a thread on that little enigma too.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5282-thy-will-be-done 
#124
fauxlaw
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poundmethomas thinks so little of women. party favors? typical of a bible-pounder. 
#125
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw


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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts where it is at 47 at this time, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

YOUR LAME QUOTE ONCE AGAIN REGARDING YOU CLOSING IN ON YOUR MOMENTOUS 50 RUNAWAYS FROM BIBLE DISCUSSION: "poundmethomas thinks so little of women. party favors? typical of a bible-pounder."

As a TRUE Christian, I have to think very little of women, whereas don't you read your JUDEO-Christian Bible sporting this axiom?  Again, how many times do I have to embarrassingly school you in front of the membership relative to your faith? Huh? LOL!

“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man;
rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived 
and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness,
with self-control.” (1 Timothy 2:11-15

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman;
but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

The above are but a few of MANY passages that show the Sisters of Eve, aka women, as 2nd class citizens, understood Bible fool?  Maybe you would like to discuss this topic with the D-man, and if not, it adds to your ever growing list of you running away from biblical discussion to reach the eventful of 50 runaways by you!


FAUXLAW, discuss or runaway AGAIN?


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#126
fauxlaw
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This is a discussion? Looks like more pounding to me. Sorry for the book.
#127
BrotherDThomas
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@fauxlaw

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FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts where it is at 48 at this time, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin,

YOUR RUNAWAY QUOTE ONCE AGAIN TO DISCUSS CHRISTIANITY RELATIVE TO 2ND CLASS WOMEN: "This is a discussion? Looks like more pounding to me. Sorry for the book."

Well, you have let the membership know once AGAIN at your continued expense that you were easily schooled by the Brother D in being Bible stupid and SCARED by not wanting to discuss the matter of women being 2nd class citizens within the scriptures as the following link that you RAN AWAY from so states:  


We can only assume that you want to reach the pinnacle of having 50 runaways from Bible discussion of your faith!  Priceless.  Therefore, your post #126 is now added, and you only have two more posts to go, praise Satan in your behalf!  

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#128
ronjs
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@Stephen
So is the threat enough to make you become a Christian or do you use your free will to reject Christ?
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#129
secularmerlin
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@ronjs
do you use your free will to reject Christ?
While I don't pretend to speak for Stephen this for me at least misses the point. I do not choose to reject anything. In fact I have no choice but to reject equally any proposition which cannot be adequately demonstrated. You do not choose to be believe something you must be convinced. You are not the author if your own beliefs. Your experiences have authored them.
#130
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@secularmerlin
...Your experiences have authored them...
let they who have not suffered cast the first ________blank

yay tho I walked through the  valley of suffering, I have approach the mountain of good tidings, with  splendor of its sloping change s of and touched the complex consciousness of abstract minds viewpoint from atop.

stop your whinning or you may suffer even more.   ---says stern authoritative figure head---- or as my older brother would 'SufferR'!!!.. it was a thing sort of saying in those mid 60's....

I better stop before I become more crude and.or crass...


#131
Stephen
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@ronjs
So is the threat enough to make you become a Christian or do you use your free will to reject Christ?

You failure to understand that the threat of death for disobedience  is not free will if it comes with a threat. 




God (Jesus) is a loving and forgiving God, but is also a just God. 

Has he forgiven Judas or Satan for their "transgressions"? Have you prayed for forgiveness of either? 

#132
ronjs
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@Stephen
so what would cause people to choose to reject God despite this threat if not free will.
An all knowing God would pour out perfect justice on anyone including Judas
#133
ronjs
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@secularmerlin
Our experiences are open to interpretation, i'm sure many people have drawn conclusions based on experience that have proven to be wrong down the road. Forced belief in anything would not be a genuine belief. 
#134
Stephen
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@ronjs
so what would cause people to choose to reject God despite this threat if not free will.

   So you are another christian that fails to read your own scripture but rushes defend the indefeasible at the first sign of criticism regardless.

 Read you own bible?  The woman was deceived and beguiled by one of gods own creations. And it is not a  choice if it comes with a threat, is it.

An all knowing God would pour out perfect justice on anyone including Judas

I wasn't talking about gods justice. Stop avoiding the question.   Has god or Jesus forgiven Judas or Satan for their "transgressions"? Have you prayed for forgiveness of either? 

Our experiences are open to interpretation,

As are the anomalous, ambiguous half stories that make up the bible. You don't even know when Jesus will return. As all you ever tell us that that it will be soon.
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#135
secularmerlin
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@ronjs
Our experiences are open to interpretation, i'm sure many people have drawn conclusions based on experience that have proven to be wrong down the road. Forced belief in anything would not be a genuine belief. 
Sufficient evidence leaves me with no option but to believe and an absence of sufficient leaves me unable to. It is not a choice in the way you mean it. One cannot simply will oneself to belief. We must be convinced. 

IF convinced = coerced THEN all beliefs are "forced".
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#136
secularmerlin
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@ronjs
so what would cause people to choose to reject God despite this threat if not free will.
Argument from incredulity and begging the question. The simple answer is if not some free will then something else. Perhaps a lack of evidence to support the proposition.

An all knowing God would pour out perfect justice on anyone including Judas
This would not appear to be the state of affairs in the observable universe and since that is all we can observe it is by necessity the only thing we can draw reasonable conclusions from. If we observe unjustice we must conclude that no all powerful all just being is enforcing any justice. 

As you pointed out such a being would necessarily lead to just outcomes one hundred percent of the time.

If your counter argument relies on any factors that exist outside the observable universe like some afterlife or a reap and sow style system of magical checks and balances your first step by necessity would be to demonstrate any such proposition you personally favor and if you cannot demonstrate it to concede that belief in a perfect cosmic hall monitor is unreasonable. 

#137
Polytheist-Witch
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If Christ died for our sins as a gift of salvation then how can anyone reject it.  It's just there. 
#138
BrotherDThomas
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@ronjs
@fauxlaw


ronjs,

YOUR VERY BIBLE IGNORANT POST TO STEPHEN: "So is the threat enough to make you become a Christian or do you use your free will to reject Christ?"

In being a pseudo-christian, you still remain in the dark relative to the fact that we DO NOT, and I repeat, DO NOT have Free Will, understood?!

As I have shown the equally Bible ignorant FAUXLAW in the link below, and where FAUXLAW had to run away from it as usual, Jesus says that we do not have FREE WILL in any way whatsoever because He controls every part of our  life from the beginning and to its end, period!


Ronjs, to save yourself further embarrassment in front of Jesus (Hebrews 4:13) and the membership, when are you going to address the following link to you below that you continue to RUN AWAY from like FAUXLAW does all the time?


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#139
BrotherDThomas
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@Polytheist-Witch



Polytheist-Witch,

YOUR QUOTE IN POST #137:  "If Christ died for our sins as a gift of salvation then how can anyone reject it.  It's just there. "

Again, what I have had to accept as a TRUE Christian, is the Biblical FACT that when Jesus was raised from His 3 day tomb nap in a Zombie form, He therefore really didn't DIE for our sins because He came back to life, and to be a true sacrifice, you have to remain DEAD!  Get it?  Bottom line, JESUS DID NOT DIE in the true sense of the term for our sins.

Furthermore, in your notion that "anyone" should not reject Jesus' misnomer of dying for our sins applies ONLY to His Jewish following, and not others. Remember, Jesus as the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate only came to save Jews!

1.  Jesus stated: “You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth [Hebrews]; therefore I will punish you for all your sins.” (Amos 3:2)

2.  Jesus' inspired word: “a people for his own possession [Hebrews], above all peoples on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy. 7:6) 

3.  Jesus' inspired word: "Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Matthew 27:37)

4.   Jesus stated: “He answered, "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep [Hebrews] of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24) 


Thank Jesus for sending me here to enlighten the Bible ignorant, praise!



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#140
Stephen
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@Polytheist-Witch
If Christ died for our sins as a gift of salvation then how can anyone reject it.  It's just there.

 I think you have to believe  that he died for you before you are granted everlasting life on another planet. And of course you have to die first, Witch.
#141
Polytheist-Witch
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@Stephen
Not sure you have to believe. Like I said if he died for every sin how can it be rejected.  I don't worry about dying too much at this point. I have no personal doubt I don't cease to exists. It's just a transition from one form to another. I don't need Jesus to do it or to not suffer in some made up hell. 
#142
Stephen
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@Polytheist-Witch


Not sure you have to believe.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die ,John 11:25

And whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:26

Mark 16:16.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Romans 10:9-14.  Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John: 3:15-16. That whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

I don't need Jesus to do it or to not suffer in some made up hell. 

No one does , Witch.  But I don't doubt that  it is of some comfort to those that chose to believe.

19 days later

#143
Timid8967
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@secularmerlin
Undeniably many people suffer and it appears to be a given that some people suffer in ways they do not necessarilly deserve. Just as clearly not all suffering is the direct result of human actions. 

That in mind and most especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?

I find this a weird discussion as a non-theist. 

Suffering is part of life.  We struggle and as non-theists we understand that suffering is normal and actually is a part of life that helps us grow and become better people. Well it can I suppose depending upon how we perceive it.  Many people just suffer ( in their jocks) or however and never respond in a positive way.  But many others never see a struggle as a threat - but as an opportunity.  

Throwing religion into it is I think (respectfully) lame.  Especially using strawman arguments.  I have never met a theist who believes just in a three prong god. Most Christians I know reject the three prong approach.  And most other religious people don't have an issue  with their god using suffering as a means to an end.  It is often just the so called non-theists who seem to throw it out there - as though it is some kind of panacea. 

The Christians I have met seem to think that suffering is necessary for them to grow in faith or in character.  When I sit back and consider suffering, it seems to me that whether you are a theist or a non-theist - suffering is the same.  I just don't see the point of non-theists using lame arguments to try and justify their non-beliefs. Especially this three prong god who no- one actually believes in.  Surely it would be a better to exercise to move past these and add something more positive on what you do believe rather than trying to make others feel insecure about their own? Especially when your best appears to be a strawman. 

To resolve suffering is therefore a weird question.  Suffering is as it is - part of life. We can respond to it as a threat or a problem or as a challenge and an opportunity. Why use it as a tool or a means to destroy other people in their lives? How is that being secular or unbiased or objective? 

#144
Polytheist-Witch
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@Timid8967
Do you think we should try to end suffering if possible? Suffering from hunger, assault, medical condition that is say treatable if you can afford it. Shouldn't we reduce as much suffering as we can?  Granted there will always be suffering you can't control like mourning but I would think we should be doing something to eliminate suffering when possible. Dying from starvation does nothing for character. 
#145
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@Polytheist-Witch
Do you think we should try to end suffering if possible? Suffering from hunger, assault, medical condition that is say treatable if you can afford it. Shouldn't we reduce as much suffering as we can?  Granted there will always be suffering you can't control like mourning but I would think we should be doing something to eliminate suffering when possible. Dying from starvation does nothing for character. 
Eliminating pain and suffering is impossible. Reducing it is another matter.  When I said it is part of life and we ought to use it to stimulate us forward, even embrace it, I am not suggesting I like it or that it is something we should long for. Pain and suffering is a reality - but using its existence as a means of determining the existence or not of a god is counter intuitive.  That is simply weird. 

All of us have to live on this planet and all of us have to come to a place of understanding our place in the midst of whatever is thrown at us.  Yes, it is good to evaluate other person's perspectives and to endeavor to be consistent in our approach. Yet, I am not sure that this means actually or intentionally decimating someone else's viewpoint. I think that is distasteful and is an example of shutting one's eyes to truth.   The truth I am talking about here is the fact that noone knows everything. In fact everyone knows less than about about .00000005 of total knowledge. So for anyone to try and destroy someone else's position is not only arrogant but stupid.   That is my opinion. 
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#146
secularmerlin
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@Timid8967
Look it is either worth discussing or  it isn't abd if it isn't then you've made a strange choice in joining the conversation. 
#147
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@Timid8967
Suffering exists so why do anything about it? Let's apply that to rape, murder, racism, sexism. child abuse, domestic violence or improving humanity in any way shape or form. What a lazy stand on life. 
#148
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@Polytheist-Witch
Suffering exists so why do anything about it? Let's apply that to rape, murder, racism, sexism. child abuse, domestic violence or improving humanity in any way shape or form. What a lazy stand on life. 
Hi Poly, 

I never said do nothing about suffering. I indicated we should do what we can to minimize it and I said we should try to reduce it.  

My point was in relation to how we "respond" to suffering. We can just suck it up - or we can respond to it in a positive manner.  

All of us suffer in many ways and the ways you suggested are not the only way to suffer.  We all will respond to the suffering inflicted upon us. How will we respond? 

My point above was blaming god for suffering is a pointless exercise especially if you don't believe in god anyway. 

I apologize for offending you. it was not my intention to suggest we should do nothing about suffering. 
#149
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@secularmerlin
Look it is either worth discussing or  it isn't abd if it isn't then you've made a strange choice in joining the conversation
My choice was to express that I think that this is a weird topic for a non-theist to make.  It in my opinion self defeating. I expressed my opinion about that.

I think it is important to express that not every non-theist thinks that a strawman argument is necessary to win the argument. And to express that this is one of the kings of such strawman arguments. 
#150
Matthew_18
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@secularmerlin
That in mind and most especially if you believe in some god(s) that can be defined as both all powerful and also loves us all how do you resolve the problem of suffering?
Suffering is because of life choices and is beyond the scope of God's responsibility.