half of GOP men won't get vaccinated- why the stupidity?

Author: n8nrgmi

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Greyparrot
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@Athias
Challenges encountered in these early trials included the instability of free RNA in the body, unintended inflammatory outcomes, and modest immune responses. Recent technological advancements in RNA biology and chemistry, as well as delivery systems, have mitigated these challenges and improved their stability, safety, and effectiveness.


Well, at least it's nice to see the CDC admits nothing is foolproof.
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@Athias
Furthermore, perhaps these will be interesting to you: 

First, a list of the clinical trials and the rigor of what is allowed as a trial:

And some studies with the efficacy demonstrating some things;


"TRIAL OBJECTIVES, PARTICIPANTS AND OVERSIGHT
We assessed the safety and efficacy of two 30-μg doses of BNT162b2, administered intramuscularly 21 days apart, as compared with placebo. Adults 16 years of age or older who were healthy or had stable chronic medical conditions, including but not limited to human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), hepatitis B virus, or hepatitis C virus infection, were eligible for participation in the trial. Key exclusion criteria included a medical history of Covid-19, treatment with immunosuppressive therapy, or diagnosis with an immunocompromising condition.

Pfizer was responsible for the design and conduct of the trial, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, and the writing of the manuscript. BioNTech was the sponsor of the trial, manufactured the BNT162b2 clinical trial material, and contributed to the interpretation of the data and the writing of the manuscript. All the trial data were available to all the authors, who vouch for its accuracy and completeness and for adherence of the trial to the protocol, which is available with the full text of this article at NEJM.org. An independent data and safety monitoring board reviewed efficacy and unblinded safety data."

"EFFICACY
The first primary end point was the efficacy of BNT162b2 against confirmed Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose in participants who had been without serologic or virologic evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection up to 7 days after the second dose; the second primary end point was efficacy in participants with and participants without evidence of prior infection. Confirmed Covid-19 was defined according to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) criteria as the presence of at least one of the following symptoms: fever, new or increased cough, new or increased shortness of breath, chills, new or increased muscle pain, new loss of taste or smell, sore throat, diarrhea, or vomiting, combined with a respiratory specimen obtained during the symptomatic period or within 4 days before or after it that was positive for SARS-CoV-2 by nucleic acid amplification–based testing, either at the central laboratory or at a local testing facility (using a protocol-defined acceptable test).

Major secondary end points included the efficacy of BNT162b2 against severe Covid-19. Severe Covid-19 is defined by the FDA as confirmed Covid-19 with one of the following additional features: clinical signs at rest that are indicative of severe systemic illness; respiratory failure; evidence of shock; significant acute renal, hepatic, or neurologic dysfunction; admission to an intensive care unit; or death. Details are provided in the protocol.

An explanation of the various denominator values for use in assessing the results of the trial is provided in Table S1 in the Supplementary Appendix, available at NEJM.org. In brief, the safety population includes persons 16 years of age or older; a total of 43,448 participants constituted the population of enrolled persons injected with the vaccine or placebo. The main safety subset as defined by the FDA, with a median of 2 months of follow-up as of October 9, 2020, consisted of 37,706 persons, and the reactogenicity subset consisted of 8183 persons. The modified intention-to-treat (mITT) efficacy population includes all age groups 12 years of age or older (43,355 persons; 100 participants who were 12 to 15 years of age contributed to person-time years but included no cases). The number of persons who could be evaluated for efficacy 7 days after the second dose and who had no evidence of prior infection was 36,523, and the number of persons who could be evaluated 7 days after the second dose with or without evidence of prior infection was 40,137."


"METHODS
This phase 3 randomized, observer-blinded, placebo-controlled trial was conducted at 99 centers across the United States. Persons at high risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection or its complications were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two intramuscular injections of mRNA-1273 (100 μg) or placebo 28 days apart. The primary end point was prevention of Covid-19 illness with onset at least 14 days after the second injection in participants who had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2."

"RESULTS
The trial enrolled 30,420 volunteers who were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive either vaccine or placebo (15,210 participants in each group). More than 96% of participants received both injections, and 2.2% had evidence (serologic, virologic, or both) of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline. Symptomatic Covid-19 illness was confirmed in 185 participants in the placebo group (56.5 per 1000 person-years; 95% confidence interval [CI], 48.7 to 65.3) and in 11 participants in the mRNA-1273 group (3.3 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 1.7 to 6.0); vaccine efficacy was 94.1% (95% CI, 89.3 to 96.8%; P<0.001). Efficacy was similar across key secondary analyses, including assessment 14 days after the first dose, analyses that included participants who had evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline, and analyses in participants 65 years of age or older. Severe Covid-19 occurred in 30 participants, with one fatality; all 30 were in the placebo group. Moderate, transient reactogenicity after vaccination occurred more frequently in the mRNA-1273 group. Serious adverse events were rare, and the incidence was similar in the two groups."

zedvictor4
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@Athias
You're clever enough to understand the principle of vaccination.

So irrespective of methodology the body produces antibodies.

The obvious difference between vaccination over nature in respect of Covid-19, is that the latter is potentially far riskier.


And I certainly agree that lifestyle influences health

"And death is inevitable"....Yep an inevitable side effect/consequence of life.

And vaccination is a factor of medical intervention in general......Which all in all, has led to a significantly increased human life expectancy.....There's no denying the fact.
Athias
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@FLRW
That is not the scope and rigors of vaccine trials. I believe your reference mentions the term "trial" just three times, and only in a general sense.


3RU7AL
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@Athias
This is not true for the Covid-19 vaccine, mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies.
And this is not concerning? Tell me: how does an mRNA vaccine "teach" a cell?
Nice.
Athias
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@Theweakeredge
Specifically this bit - 

"mRNA from the vaccine never enters the nucleus of the cell and does not affect or interact with a person’s DNA."
It merely acts as DNA does and manipulates the cell into developing COVID spike proteins despite not interacting directly with one's DNA.

Athias
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@Greyparrot


Well, at least it's nice to see the CDC admits nothing is foolproof.
I would assume that is more of a customary response rather than one that appreciates the danger in propagating the complete safety of the vaccine.

3RU7AL
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@Athias
Also, does it seem strange that they recommend the "vaccine", even for people who have ALREADY HAD A CONFIRMED INFECTION OF COVID19?

Why would you need a jab to stimulate the production of antibodies for a disease you've already recovered from?
Athias
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@Theweakeredge
Furthermore, perhaps these will be interesting to you: 

First, a list of the clinical trials and the rigor of what is allowed as a trial:

And some studies with the efficacy demonstrating some things;


"TRIAL OBJECTIVES, PARTICIPANTS AND OVERSIGHT
We assessed the safety and efficacy of two 30-μg doses of BNT162b2, administered intramuscularly 21 days apart, as compared with placebo. Adults 16 years of age or older who were healthy or had stable chronic medical conditions, including but not limited to human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), hepatitis B virus, or hepatitis C virus infection, were eligible for participation in the trial. Key exclusion criteria included a medical history of Covid-19, treatment with immunosuppressive therapy, or diagnosis with an immunocompromising condition.

Pfizer was responsible for the design and conduct of the trial, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, and the writing of the manuscript. BioNTech was the sponsor of the trial, manufactured the BNT162b2 clinical trial material, and contributed to the interpretation of the data and the writing of the manuscript. All the trial data were available to all the authors, who vouch for its accuracy and completeness and for adherence of the trial to the protocol, which is available with the full text of this article at NEJM.org. An independent data and safety monitoring board reviewed efficacy and unblinded safety data."

"EFFICACY
The first primary end point was the efficacy of BNT162b2 against confirmed Covid-19 with onset at least 7 days after the second dose in participants who had been without serologic or virologic evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection up to 7 days after the second dose; the second primary end point was efficacy in participants with and participants without evidence of prior infection. Confirmed Covid-19 was defined according to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) criteria as the presence of at least one of the following symptoms: fever, new or increased cough, new or increased shortness of breath, chills, new or increased muscle pain, new loss of taste or smell, sore throat, diarrhea, or vomiting, combined with a respiratory specimen obtained during the symptomatic period or within 4 days before or after it that was positive for SARS-CoV-2 by nucleic acid amplification–based testing, either at the central laboratory or at a local testing facility (using a protocol-defined acceptable test).

Major secondary end points included the efficacy of BNT162b2 against severe Covid-19. Severe Covid-19 is defined by the FDA as confirmed Covid-19 with one of the following additional features: clinical signs at rest that are indicative of severe systemic illness; respiratory failure; evidence of shock; significant acute renal, hepatic, or neurologic dysfunction; admission to an intensive care unit; or death. Details are provided in the protocol.

An explanation of the various denominator values for use in assessing the results of the trial is provided in Table S1 in the Supplementary Appendix, available at NEJM.org. In brief, the safety population includes persons 16 years of age or older; a total of 43,448 participants constituted the population of enrolled persons injected with the vaccine or placebo. The main safety subset as defined by the FDA, with a median of 2 months of follow-up as of October 9, 2020, consisted of 37,706 persons, and the reactogenicity subset consisted of 8183 persons. The modified intention-to-treat (mITT) efficacy population includes all age groups 12 years of age or older (43,355 persons; 100 participants who were 12 to 15 years of age contributed to person-time years but included no cases). The number of persons who could be evaluated for efficacy 7 days after the second dose and who had no evidence of prior infection was 36,523, and the number of persons who could be evaluated 7 days after the second dose with or without evidence of prior infection was 40,137."


"METHODS
This phase 3 randomized, observer-blinded, placebo-controlled trial was conducted at 99 centers across the United States. Persons at high risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection or its complications were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive two intramuscular injections of mRNA-1273 (100 μg) or placebo 28 days apart. The primary end point was prevention of Covid-19 illness with onset at least 14 days after the second injection in participants who had not previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2."

"RESULTS
The trial enrolled 30,420 volunteers who were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive either vaccine or placebo (15,210 participants in each group). More than 96% of participants received both injections, and 2.2% had evidence (serologic, virologic, or both) of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline. Symptomatic Covid-19 illness was confirmed in 185 participants in the placebo group (56.5 per 1000 person-years; 95% confidence interval [CI], 48.7 to 65.3) and in 11 participants in the mRNA-1273 group (3.3 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 1.7 to 6.0); vaccine efficacy was 94.1% (95% CI, 89.3 to 96.8%; P<0.001). Efficacy was similar across key secondary analyses, including assessment 14 days after the first dose, analyses that included participants who had evidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection at baseline, and analyses in participants 65 years of age or older. Severe Covid-19 occurred in 30 participants, with one fatality; all 30 were in the placebo group. Moderate, transient reactogenicity after vaccination occurred more frequently in the mRNA-1273 group. Serious adverse events were rare, and the incidence was similar in the two groups."

Thank you, theweakeredge, for the scope and rigor for at least one of these trials. I do have a question about this trial however. If those with the Human Immunodefficiency Virus, Hepatitis B and C viruses weren't excluded from participating in these trials, and the third phase was randomized, where was the control for those with co-morbidities? The data presents that 2.2% had evidence of serologic, virologic or both of SARS CoV-2, not to mention that they were assigned at random a placebo or an mRNA, yet states that 185 participants from the placebo group as opposed to just the 11 in the mRNA group to determine its efficacy.

Furthermore, isn't this trial less than a year-old and still being conducted? How can any of the conclusions cited by FLRW be substantiated at the early stages of these trials?


Athias
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@3RU7AL
Also, does it seem strange that they recommend the "vaccine", even for people who have ALREADY HAD A CONFIRMED INFECTION OF COVID19?

Why would you need a jab to stimulate the production of antibodies for a disease you've already recovered from?
That's one of the arguments I've persisted to make. If we are to take the epidemicity of this virus seriously, then that would suggest that most who live in the "hotbeds" have been exposed. If one has been exposed, then what is the point of risking taking these vaccines if one's immune system has already developed a response? And, if the vaccine prevents neither its contraction nor its spread, why is it being recommended even to those who are at low risk of dying from it?

3RU7AL
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@Athias
And, if the vaccine prevents neither its contraction nor its spread, why is it being recommended even to those who are at low risk of dying from it?
Yep.
Athias
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@zedvictor4
You're clever enough to understand the principle of vaccination.
I would argue that many are.

So irrespective of methodology the body produces antibodies.

The obvious difference between vaccination over nature in respect of Covid-19, is that the latter is potentially far riskier.
How have you determined death.

And I certainly agree that lifestyle influences health
But...

"And death is inevitable"....Yep an inevitable side effect/consequence of life.
I won't harp on this much longer.

And vaccination is a factor of medical intervention in general......Which all in all, has led to a significantly increased human life expectancy.....There's no denying the fact.
Yes, but you're using my scrutiny of vaccines as basis to a non sequitur. I'm not arguing that medical intervention hasn't significantly increased human life expectancy. I'm challenging you to substantiate how vaccines, and vaccines in particular, have increased life expectancy from 30 to 75, the very numbers you mentioned yourself.
FLRW
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@Athias
We do not vaccinate to prevent a minor case of the sniffles. The reason we have vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death caused by infections. The polio vaccine prevents paralysis. The measles vaccine prevents pneumonia, brain infections and blindness. Annual influenza vaccines prevent pneumonia, sepsis and heart attacks. If COVID-19 only caused a cold, we would not have bothered to develop vaccines for it. While there are many mild cases of COVID-19, about a fifth of infections result in severe disease, and nearly 1% of infected people die. For older people and those with underlying health problems, the risk of death can be anywhere from 10 to several hundred times higher.
All seven COVID-19 vaccines that have completed large efficacy trials — Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, Novavax, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V and Sinovac — appear to be 100% effective for serious complications. Not one vaccinated person has gotten sick enough to require hospitalization. Not a single vaccinated person has died of COVID-19.
3RU7AL
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@FLRW
Not one vaccinated person has gotten sick enough to require hospitalization. Not a single vaccinated person has died of COVID-19.
Debates Erupt After Marvin Hagler’s Death

The death of famed boxer Marvin Hagler sparked conversations around hesitancy over the COVID-19 vaccine, especially within Black communities.
3RU7AL
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@FLRW
Doctors in Norway have been told to conduct more thorough evaluations of very frail elderly patients in line to receive the Pfizer BioNTec vaccine against covid-19, following the deaths of 23 patients shortly after receiving the vaccine.

“It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure,” Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency (NOMA), told The BMJ. “There is no certain connection between these deaths and the vaccine.”

The agency has investigated 13 of the deaths so far and concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may have contributed to fatal outcomes in some of the frail patients. [**]
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@3RU7AL
    by D'Angelo Gore, FactCheck.org
    Published 
    Mar 17, 2021
Quick Take
Hall of Fame boxer Marvelous Marvin Hagler “died on March 13 of natural causes,” according to a statement posted on his official website. In a Facebook post, his widow, Kay Hagler, wrote that his death was not the result of a COVID-19 vaccination, as social media posts have claimed without evidence.
Full Story
There is no evidence that the death of 66-year-old Marvelous Marvin Hagler, a former middleweight boxing champion, was caused by a COVID-19 vaccine, as some have claimed or suggested on social media. It’s the second time this year that we have written about unsubstantiated claims that the vaccines led to a famous Black athlete’s death.

3RU7AL
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@FLRW
There is no evidence that the death of 66-year-old Marvelous Marvin Hagler...
It's pretty strange that temporal proximity to receiving the jab somehow magically amounts to "no evidence".
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@FLRW
The agency has investigated 13 of the deaths so far and concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may have contributed to fatal outcomes in some of the frail patients. [**]
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL
At least the government isn't mandating inoculations.
Athias
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@FLRW
We do not vaccinate to prevent a minor case of the sniffles. 
That's not really the point.

The reason we have vaccines is to prevent severe disease and death caused by infections. The polio vaccine prevents paralysis. The measles vaccine prevents pneumonia, brain infections and blindness.
This is a lie. I know someone intimately who had been vaccinated for the measles and acquired pneumonia, which nearly killed him.

 Annual influenza vaccines prevent pneumonia, sepsis and heart attacks.
No, they do not. Pneumonia is characterized by a pulmonary infection. While influenza can cause pneumonia, most cases don't--vaccine notwithstanding.

All seven COVID-19 vaccines that have completed large efficacy trials — Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson, Novavax, AstraZeneca, Sputnik V and Sinovac — appear to be 100% effective for serious complications. Not one vaccinated person has gotten sick enough to require hospitalization. Not a single vaccinated person has died of COVID-19.
First, "appear to be" is not an argument or an observation. It's an impression. Second, while the chart does boast 100% efficacy, it does not include its controls for the placebo, it does not inform on the contraction and transmission after taking the vaccine. Third, those who have contracted the virus who have not died from COVID-19 has not died from COVID-19.


Athias
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@Greyparrot
At least the government isn't mandating inoculations.
They can try their luck.

Greyparrot
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@Athias
This is a lie. I know someone intimately who had been vaccinated for the measles and acquired pneumonia, which nearly killed him.
There used to be a time when we could trust each other to make our own personal risk assessments. Today, it's just an exercise in obedience.

Athias
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@Greyparrot
There used to be a time when we could trust each other to make our own personal risk assessments. Today, it's just an exercise in obedience.
Well put.
zedvictor4
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@Athias
I made a generalization regarding increased life expectancy in recent times, relative to medical intervention, including vaccines.

But Mr A. has now got his rhetorical head on (only to be expected) in an attempt to quell his trypanophobia.....Only joking.


So irrespective of methodology, the body produces antibodies.
The obvious difference between vaccination over nature in respect of Covid-19, is that the latter is potentially far riskier.
You seemed to avoid this with the obscure reply: "How have you determined death".....Perhaps you could clarify.


Greyparrot
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I made a generalization regarding increased life expectancy in recent times, relative to medical intervention, including vaccines.

Poor lifestyle choices can't save you from the Covid. Nor should you ever expect it to be the case.
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
At least the government isn't mandating inoculations.


SAY GOODBYE TO MEDICAL PRIVACY.
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@3RU7AL
Well, even in the past, if an individual was seen as a risk the state would step in I think.

And,
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@Lemming
Rare edge-cases like Mary Mallon are great EXCUSES for invasive policies.

Quarantine might be warranted for SOME DISEASES.

However, when they try to tell you that this super deadly super contagious plague has no detectable symptoms and they use PCR amplification to diagnose, it's definitely beyond the pale.
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@3RU7AL
Typhoid Mary's might be more an outlier yeah, maybe 'probably are, I've never really looked into it before.

If 'nothing had been done in response to Covid, Perhaps people could see it's effect more clearly, And might be more alarmed, Willing to address it.
Not saying that's what we should have done.
But as it is, I think might have ended up difficult for people to put Covid into perspective.

Myself I'm really not a social person, So I'm not a good example.
No one I know has died from Covid, Or even had Covid, So far as I/They know.
I'm NOT saying this to claim Covid is not an issue.
But that since society has been socially isolated, Might be difficult for it's effect to have registered with some people.

Myself I have difficulty with putting statistics in perspective. Statistics exist for many things.
Without context/comparison/implication, can be difficult for me to understand.

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@Lemming
95.65213258609808% of official covid deaths are in the 50 to 85 age range.

503,157 is what percentage of 526,028?