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@Stephen
You agreed earlier, backing down now
Does the Rabbi Have a Good Point?
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@Polytheist-Witch
You agreed earlier, backing down now
I still do agree, Witch, I am simply asking you how many biblical incest stories there are?
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@Stephen
Between 8 and 11
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@Polytheist-Witch
Can you point out these instances of incest for us,Witch?
And its forbidden by all accounts.
You should start a thread on the matter, Witch.
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@Stephen
Why would I start a topic on incest in the Bible when you already did? Obviously God isn't that put off by it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Why would I start a topic on incest in the Bible
Because Witch you are fixated on only one particular part of the Rabbi David Kimhi's conundrum , the incest part . You can't shut up about it.
The theme of this thread is to do with the Trinity, and not only the incest part, which going by your obsession with the subject , you should start your own thread on the matter or stick to the subject as a whole.
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@Stephen
I've always wondered who qyn and ibil were married to.
The testimony of the ancient rabbis is that Cain and Abel married their sisters. This is also logically inferred from the Church’s doctrine on original sin. Original sin is passed on to all human beings from our first parents, Adam and Eve. As St. Paul says, “[S]in came into the world through one man” (Rom. 5:12; cf. Rom. 5:19-20 and Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 402-06). [**]
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@3RU7AL
It is a fascinating discussion. The question of incest is equally interesting. First and foremost, one has to accept the idea that the "sin" status of incest was only established when God gave laws against it. So in pre-legal times, there is no reason to think that it was not allowed. This same explanation also is used to explain some other instances.
But in this case, there is an understanding that incest is not the desired way to go about things. To address that, the Jerusalem talmud discusses the issue. Here is a webpage which sumamrizes it and some other points.
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@rosends
First and foremost, one has to accept the idea that the "sin" status of incest was only established when God gave laws against it.
Awesome.
Are you suggesting that morality changes when "YHWH" decides to change it?
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@3RU7AL
I'm suggesting that we shouldn't confuse a transcendent morality for the law imposed on human kind.
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@rosends
I'm suggesting that we shouldn't confuse a transcendent morality for the law imposed on human kind.
What is "transcendent morality" iff "YHWH" can just change the rules on a whim?
Were the Midianite women and children who were slaughtered AFTER the battle was over some special exception to "transcendent morality" or was that slaughter a "general moral good" that we should emulate?
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@3RU7AL
Transcendent morality is the actual morality that drives things even beyond the world of man. Man's being limited by law very often mirrors that larger morality but not always. Man's law, for example, requires a legal process of witnesses and judges before a crime can be punished. A transcendent morality might indicate that a direct and divine immediate punishment is called for. We don't try to emulate that transcendent morality (we can't even always understand it) -- we try to follow the laws given to us to follow; that's enough of a challenge.
As a side note, I assume that you are referring to Num 31 and a fair question might be "God doesn't command to kill the women, so why do that? Is Moses guessing at the transcendent morality?"
The Chatam Sofer has a discussion of this question and explains by means of textual sources how the command to kill the women was part of God's original command which the soldiers chose to ignore.
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@rosends
Man's being limited by law very often mirrors that larger morality but not always.
How can we determine how much (or how little) "manslaw" mirrors "transcendent morality"?
I mean if it's just a guess, it might be less than a 1% match.
AND, is it ok to slaughter prisoners of war?
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@Stephen
It has to do with the trinity in the case of it leading to incest. You seem to think no one was going to notice that is the Rabbi's issue, the incest. Not God and Jesus are father and son. Don't get mad at me your topic is silly and just to provoke Christians. The Bible is full of say one thing do another. God has little issue with incest it seems since those he chooses engage in it with little punishment. Jesus being no exception.
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@3RU7AL
Why would we try to determine any percentage of overlap (1 or 95 percent)? What good does that do?
I addressed your point about the prisoners in an edit to the previous post.
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@rosends
and explains by means of textual sources how the command to kill the women was part of God's original command which the soldiers chose to ignore.
Of course it was part of "YHWH's" original command. That was never in dispute.
The question on the table is, "was the slaughter transcendently moral?" does "YHWH" change the rules for certain specific situations?
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@3RU7AL
I would suggest that nothing is changed. If we only had part of the picture originally, then we get more info in the form of later commands in other cases.
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@rosends
Why would we try to determine any percentage of overlap (1 or 95 percent)? What good does that do?
Well, presumably one will get you 1% into heaven and the other will get you 95% into heaven, so, a pretty big difference.
And there are zillions of laws, many of them contradictory and even more of them ridiculously inconvenient.
It might be useful to be able to filter them down to ONLY the "transcendently moral" ones (so we can focus our efforts).
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@rosends
I would suggest that nothing is changed. If we only had part of the picture originally, then we get more info in the form of later commands in other cases.
How is the Midian situation a special case?
What are we supposed to learn from this story?
Also, the biblical Midian was in the northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea.
Does this mean we should slaughter everyone in the northwest Arabian Peninsula, on the east shore of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red Sea?
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@3RU7AL
presumably one will get you 1% into heaven and the other will get you 95% into heaven, so, a pretty big difference
I don't understand that. If I do 100 of what is expected of me, regardless of how I compute it in relationship to the transcendent morality, then I earn my 100%.
re: Midian, The Children of Israel were wandering in the wilderness. They must have wreaked God's vengeance on whatever section of the Midianite peopple who were in the area in whcih they found themselves. The lesson, as it were, has to do with the vengeance, and the special position of immorality. But there is nothing in it which tells us to kill anyone now so we shouldn't slaughter anyone.
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@rosends
They must have wreaked God's vengeance on whatever section of the Midianite peopple who were in the area in whcih they found themselves.The lesson, as it were, ...we shouldn't slaughter anyone.
So are you anti-war?
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@rosends
presumably one will get you 1% into heaven and the other will get you 95% into heaven, so, a pretty big differenceI don't understand that. If I do 100 of what is expected of me, regardless of how I compute it in relationship to the transcendent morality, then I earn my 100%.
In that case, it's even more important to figure out how accurately "manslaw" mirrors "transcendent morality" since there doesn't appear to be any margin of error.
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@3RU7AL
I'm a coward who hates leaving the house. I'm anti-everything.
it's even more important to figure out how accurately "manslaw" mirrors "transcendent morality" since there doesn't appear to be any margin of error.
But if all we have to worry about is what is asked of us, then we don't really need to worry about how it reflects anything else.
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@rosends
But if all we have to worry about is what is asked of us, then we don't really need to worry about how it reflects anything else.
What is asked of us?
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@3RU7AL
abiding by the various commandments.
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@rosends
Like these various commandments?
Maharaurava (great-fearful): A person who indulges at the expense of other beings is afflicted with pain by fierce rurus called kravyadas, who eat his flesh.[3][4]
Kumbhipaka (cooked in a pot): A person who cooks beasts and birds alive is cooked alive in boiling oil by Yamadutas here, for as many years as there were hairs on the bodies of their animal victims.[3][4]
Kalasutra (thread of Time/Death): The Bhagavata Purana assigns this hell to a murderer of a brahmin,[3] while the Devi Bhagavata Purana allocates it for a person who disrespects his parents, elders, ancestors or brahmins.[4] This realm is made entirely of copper and extremely hot, heated by fire from below and the red hot sun from above. Here, the sinner burns from within by hunger and thirst and the smouldering heat outside, whether he sleeps, sits, stands or runs.[3][4]
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@3RU7AL
I don't recognize any of those. I can give you a different list if you would like (but there is a lot to be said about it --- just reading it linearly doesn't confer understanding of it necessarily).
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@rosends
“I don’t know if you heard, but one who frees his slaves violates a positive precept, i.e. you shall make them serve you forever.” He continues saying that the manumission of slaves does not apply at the present moment, therefore, he desists. The first brother replies and tells him not to violate the positive precept of the Torah." [**]
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@3RU7AL
The issue of slavery is a complex one. If you want to read a brief discussion of the application of laws in that regard, you can start here and (with overlap and more) here.
Suffice to say, manumission's being prohibited was not as simple as that half anecdote suggests (though that anecdote was a responsa for finding a way to ensure freedom regardless of the apparent superficial prohibition).
The topic continues to be debated and its intricacies worked through such as in this exchange.
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@rosends
A master had one year to persuade a Canaanite servant to undergo circumcision and ritual immersion in a mikvah in order to accept this role. If the servant didn’t consent, he must be sold. If he did consent, he became a permanent member of the master’s household. Unlike a Hebrew servant, a Canaanite servant doesn’t go free after six years or at the Jubilee; he potentially serves for the rest of his life.Similarly, since Canaanite servants were only obligated in the mitzvos in which women are obligated, if a Canaanite servant’s master caused him to perform a mitzvah that is only performed by men, such as putting on tefillin or calling him for an aliyah, then that servant is considered freed. (“A tallis! Master has given Dobby a tallis! Dobby is free!”) [**]
I guess freeing a female foreign slave is somewhat more complicated.