atheism and relativism.

Author: keithprosser

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Then Deuteronomy 28 lists the curses, these same curses we witness in the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. 
D28 is really over top!  but its not prophesy... it is list of dire threats of what the Hebrews should expect if they ever dare to abandon YHWH.   It like a preacher threatening his flock with tales of fire and brimstone if they sin.

It is interesting that the penalties for aposasy given in D28 are all earthly.  Ancient Judaism had no use for an after-life in heaven or hell; YHWH gave his rewards and punishments right here on earth, during life.  The Sadducees rejected after-life upto and beyond the time of Jesus, cf Mark 12;18 "18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question."


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The prophecies in the bible fall primarily into two categories. [1] One is prophecy that was predicted in the bible and fulfilled in the same book. I can make prophecy after the fact too. [2] The second is vague prophecy with open ended time frames. Given a long enough time frame even very unlikely events become virtually assured and many of these so called predictions hardly describe unlikely events (for example there are always wars and rumors of wars so that is a not so much a prediction as an understanding of the violent nature of human beings). Neither of these categories is particularly impressive as prophecy goes. Rather like a horoscope. 

You are of course under no special obligation to provide evidence of your position but in that case don't be surprised when I dismiss your claim.


[1] Whereas in some cases what was spoken in a prophets writing happened within the prophets lifetime, sometimes, more often than not the prophet does not witness these things come about. The language is specific as to the timeframe. The gospels are bios of Jesus. Not once do we read of the already predicted destruction of the city or temple as a past event. This idea is foreign to the writers. So the burden is on you to so with reason that it was not foreign to them and all these writings failed to include the already destruction or molded the prophetic fulfillment in after the fact, after the event. They would have to mold in the entire OT economy for not once do we read of the priesthood, or the animal sacrifice as a past event.

If you can't establish your claim then we are left with these early writings that lay testimony to the fact that the event had not happened yet.

You can lay claim to the possibility that these things were written in after the fact but providing the evidence is another story. So my position is more reasonable with what we have available.

[2] The problem with this statement is that the time frames are very specific to the last days, the day of wrath, the end of the age, this generation, soon, near, quickly, at hand, the hour is upon us. When you pay attention to the audience of address by paying attention to the context, the pronouns do not refer to us as the primary audience of address. "You" is specific to a particular people.

In the prophecies of Daniel, for the most part, he is told of things that do not relate to him but to a time far off. Take, for instance, Daniel 12.

The Time of the End
12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued...4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time... it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed...9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time...11 From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”


These verses are very revealing to when that time would be, and the time period spoken of is revealed as the NT times. Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, speaks of this very time Daniel alluded to when He is speaking to His disciples and in relation to the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:21-23
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 
22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.


Notice how Daniel's prophecy contains the words "until THEN." Jesus reciting the same prophecy says, "until now" and He applies it to the relevant audience, His disciples. Immediately after speaking of this time He tells them, "if anyone says to YOU..." 

Notice that the power of the holy people (i.e., Daniel's Mosaic covenant people) will be COMPLETELY shattered. What is the power of these people? Why it is their relationship with God. At THAT time all these events will be complete. Now pay attention to what Jesus said as recorded by Luke and Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse:


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Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The "you" in context is Jesus' disciples. They have asked Him when will the destruction be and the SIGN of His coming. The sign is the destruction of Jerusalem and temple. When Jerusalem is surrounded Jesus says her desolation is near. He says THESE are the days of vengeance that all things written about will be fulfilled, the exact same thing Daniel said about the final end of the covenant in which the power of the holy people will be completely shattered and everything complete. 

Daniel is told, "these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time" that time is far off. In Revelation (again another account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse) John records concerning these OT saints in heaven, 



 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals”  we find the end time is the present time because the sealed scrolls are opened. 

Daniel is told the times are far off, yet in the NT we constantly see the times are near, within the scope of that generation. We see Daniel told to go his way until the end when he will be resurrected, then we find Jesus comes preaching of the resurrection and the soon coming judgment. This all happens in AD 70 when these peoples are judged and a New Covenant takes the place of the old. In the meantime, the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and His Second Coming, is a transition between covenants. This can be demonstrated by the wording from the NT (i.e., Hebrews 8:13 as one example).  




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#184
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Sherlock Holmes stories mention real historical people, places and events.  Almost every piece of fiction does.  The issue is not if Herod (etc)exists but if God exists.  
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Then Deuteronomy 28 lists the curses, these same curses we witness in the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. 
D28 is really over top!  but its not prophesy... it is list of dire threats of what the Hebrews should expect if they ever dare to abandon YHWH.   It like a preacher threatening his flock with tales of fire and brimstone if they sin.
They [the curses] play into the prophetic message. The reason God sends prophets to Israel is that they are not following His commands. Because they are not doing this He is going to bring the warned curses of Deuteronomy 28 upon them within a specific timeframe. Daniel is told the time frame in Daniel 9:24-27 along with other prophecies that address the very same issue. 

Notice that Daniel 9:1-23 is all about how Daniel's people have broken the covenant they agreed to and Daniel is given a revelation from God about the consequences, and when. 



It is interesting that the penalties for aposasy given in D28 are all earthly.  Ancient Judaism had no use for an after-life in heaven or hell; YHWH gave his rewards and punishments right here on earth, during life.  The Sadducees rejected after-life upto and beyond the time of Jesus, cf Mark 12;18 "18 Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question." 
They are earthly events that contain a deeper spiritual meaning. The OT physical events is a mirror of a greater truth, spiritual truths that the unbeliever is usually oblivious to. 


The NT explains how these pictures or types or patterns in the OT, that are physical in nature, all point to greater truths. Jesus says that the whole of the OT points to Him. What is said of God in the OT is seen of Jesus in the NT. 

Jesus and the NT contain greater truths. The OT is a covenant that is a type of the NT. Jesus said in John 4:23-24

23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Paul reiterates this truth in 1 Corinthians 2:10-15

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 

You, as an unbeliever, reject the things taught by the Spirit. They are foolish to you, yet they are wise. Contained in the NT is the spiritual contrast with the physical OT. One is temporary, the other is permanent. It would take me weeks to expose you to all these spiritual truths, and even then, without submitting to God you would brush them off. Jesus put it this way:

Luke 24:44 (NASB)
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

The whole OT is a revelation of who He is. It is something that the casual reader will miss because of his ignorance of the deeper things of God. 

Actually, there were some who rejected the after-life and others who embrace it. Jesus understood this and identified it in His teachings.

[ Jesus Answers the Sadducees ] On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,


Daniel also understood it in Daniel 12, which speaks about the afterlife.
 
and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt...13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” 

Those who are in the dust of the ground (i.e., what you would understand as dead) will be rescued and awakened. A judgment will take place and a separation will occur. Daniel himself will be rewarded at the end of this age. WHAT AGE? If you do not understand this you are going to miss an important bibilcal truth. 
 

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@keithprosser

Sherlock Holmes stories mention real historical people, places and events.  Almost every piece of fiction does.  The issue is not if Herod (etc)exists but if God exists.   

So what? The author did not profess to them being actual history. We understand they are made up. This is not the case with the biblical narrative. The gospels are seen as a biography of Jesus of Nazareth and His relationship with God and humanity. They don't pretend to be actual events. They say they are. 

nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

The gospel accounts claim eyewitness testimony to the greatest Person and truth we could ever discover. 

Did Holmes predict a great number of events that would take place after he died that have come true as he said they would?


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The language is specific as to the timeframe. 
Oh, I was unaware that any biblical prophecy mentioned a specific date, or even a specific year, but as I said even if the prophecy in question is specific to the minute and 100% accurate you would still have to demonstrate some how that the source of this prophecy was god.
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The language is specific as to the timeframe. 
Oh, I was unaware that any biblical prophecy mentioned a specific date, or even a specific year, but as I said even if the prophecy in question is specific to the minute and 100% accurate you would still have to demonstrate some how that the source of this prophecy was god.

It is very specific. I cannot refer to any other period of history. It speaks again of a coming destruction. It speaks of the end time, the time of the end? End of what? The context tells us. 

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [j]its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


There is a very specific period of time to prophecy laid bare in the prophetic context. It will start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. That alone means that the city and temple are in ruins. The time frame will end (once started) with seventy weeks or heptads (490 years). God gives them specific things that will be accomplished within this timeframe. There will be an end to their transgression against God. Their sin will be put an end to with judgment, their sin will be atoned for with everlasting righteousness (for those who believe), these prophecies will be sealed up until that time and the most holy place or Person will be anointed.


So, the prophecy deals with the time when the temple and city are rebuilt and once again destroyed. That is only at one time in the future.

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Let's pretend for a moment that I accept the prophecy as being specific and accurate. In that case so What? You still have yet to demonstrate your claim that some god(s) were the source of the prophecy. You seem to be missing the point here.
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@secularmerlin
if you accept prophecy as accurate and specific then you accept the reality of magic.  If you accept magic is is it really justified to not accept the gods?  In terms of pedantic logic maybe you can accept prophecy but not gods but it seems a desperate postion to maintain.

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@secularmerlin

Let's pretend for a moment that I accept the prophecy as being specific and accurate. In that case so What? You still have yet to demonstrate your claim that some god(s) were the source of the prophecy. You seem to be missing the point here.


If you accept that prophecy is audience specific and accurate to that audience then it gives you one other reason to accept what it says on other issues which I have not gotten to yet (like how accurate its statements are about Jesus Christ for He said that all Scripture speaks of Him or its accuracy on names and places and how they relate to other historical accounts). If you accept its claims on prophecy Jesus, and history as reasonable and logical it also makes statements about God, and not just any god, the one and only true God. I don't see some 'gods' as the source. The Bible is specific to who God is. Or you can just take Him on His word and He will truly reveal these things to you and help you to make sense of the world, the universe, life, truth, knowledge, morals, and many other issues. 


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I don't accept prophecy but even if I did it does not justify a belief in god(s) as the two are not synonymous.
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If you accept that prophecy is audience specific and accurate to that audience

Why should I accept that? 
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you can just take Him on His word and He will truly reveal these things to you 

So in order to be convinced I must accept your claims ahead of time? You will forgive me but if your claims cannot convince anyone who doesn't believe before even hearing it then it can't be that convincing. 
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Without reading the thread, I find myself wondering what is the logical connection between atheism/relativism and prophecy.
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@SkepticalOne
In post #67 pGA wrote:

Working on the presupposition that God is true Christians can make sense of origins, existence, truth, knowledge, morality. Other worldviews are inconsistent. So, God is necessary. 
Prophecy is another way God has given us that verifies His word....
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I can't help but think the interpretation of prophecy is a form of cultural (denominational) relativism.
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Well, different denominations may well interpret prophesies differently, but the laws of physics are the same for everyone so the possibiity that actual prophecies exist is not relative.   i.e they aren't possible!
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I'm not convinced prophecy is a real thing, but that is not the same thing as being convinced they are not real and I'm curious how you've arrived at that position. 

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I think fraud and propaganda are more probable than the laws of physics being violated!
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Well, I'm not sure prophecy necessarily violates the laws of physics and fraud/propaganda certainly make sense, but that is really beside my point. 

I don't think PGA is a willing participant in fraud or propaganda, and he probably needs us to be more than dismissive to realize it. 😉
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I don't suppose for a moment that PGA is a fraudster nor a propagandist but if he believes prophesies foretell future events he is the victim of fraudsters and propagandists!

I'm not into debunking the bible per se.   I am interested in how the early church used tales of miracles and prophesies to grow - i'd say the 'memetics' of Christianity if I didn't dislike the word 'memetics'!

 
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@secularmerlin

Let's pretend for a moment that I accept the prophecy as being specific and accurate. In that case so What? You still have yet to demonstrate your claim that some god(s) were the source of the prophecy. You seem to be missing the point here.
So, it shows the Bible is reliable in what it says regarding prophecy. Biblical prophecy is a revelation from God to humanity. That is its claim.  


So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.


It is just another confirmation, and a good one, that the Bible is a revelation from God. (Try poking holes in it by addressing these prophecies) After all, what human do you know who can make many hundreds of prophecies that all center on a specific time frame and Person of history that all come true? 

I demonstrate my claim by taking you to the prophecy. Did Jerusalem fall in AD 70? Is that demonstratable by history? Did the OT warn of God's judgment on His people Israel, if they continued to worship other gods and remain disobedient to Him? Do the curses of Deuteronomy 28 apply to what happened in AD 70? Did the OT prophesy a Messiah would come to these OT people? How could this happen after AD 70? Can you answer that? How can these OT people worship God as specified by the Mosaic Law after AD 70? They can't. So everything the OT warns against for disobedience takes place. Show me it did not.

So far I have not seen one skeptic (other than SkepticalOne) address these issues, and even SkeptiicalOne backed off. He attacked the issue from the claim that the prophecy was written after the event. Where in early history that related to these issues do you find one shred of evidence that it was interjected after the fact?

What I claimed in my For Stephen thread still applies. It is reasonable and logical to believe prophecy and therefore God. One-third of the Bible is prophetic in its nature. The whole Bible, 66 different books, speak of God and His transactions with humanity, specifically through a people He chose to make Himself known. Through these OT people, He promised a new covenant, an everlasting one that would reach out to all people. He promised He would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. He promised His servant would sit on the throne of David forever. In the NT we see Jesus as fulfilling all these things. 


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if you accept prophecy as accurate and specific then you accept the reality of magic.  If you accept magic is is it really justified to not accept the gods?  In terms of pedantic logic maybe you can accept prophecy but not gods but it seems a desperate postion to maintain.

How is that? How do you accept the reality of magic by accepting prophecy or God? I do not accept 'gods.' I accept God. 
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It is reasonable and logical to believe prophecy and therefore God
Is it really "reasonable and logical" to throw the laws of physics in the bin to accomodate a shaky claim that a piece of text is prophetic? 

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How is that? How do you accept the reality of magic by accepting prophecy or God? I do not accept 'gods.' I accept God. 
I try to give avoid the impression that it is only 'God' I don't accept.   I do hope you aren't going to get boringly nit-picky over that!

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@secularmerlin

If you accept that prophecy is audience specific and accurate to that audience

Why should I accept that? 

Because prophecy deals with an audience specific text and it is reasonable to believe that what is prophesied comes about. I listed one OT prophetic text (Daniel 9:24-27) and one NT text (the Olivet Discourse as laid out in the gospels and Revelation). These texts are most definitely audience specific and you could not demonstrate otherwise by going to the texts in question. I challenge you to do so if you think otherwise. What usually happens when I make these challenges is that the person moves on to another line of discourse. That is the problem with the atheist worldview. It never addresses the central issues. It always skirts them with much bravado. 

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@secularmerlin

you can just take Him on His word and He will truly reveal these things to you 

So in order to be convinced I must accept your claims ahead of time? You will forgive me but if your claims cannot convince anyone who doesn't believe before even hearing it then it can't be that convincing. 

No, investigate if you like. I'm asking how you will believe God if you don't believe He exists. You will sift everything through your worldview belief system and find every reason that confirms your bias. Is that not what you are doing here? Where has anyone (except SkepticalOne) addressed Posts 182 or 191 of the prophecy thread I set up? The atheist and secular humanist will keep claiming there is no evidence. 

You have heard the claims. 



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#209
keithprosser
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@PGA2.0
If you accept that prophecy is audience specific and accurate to that audience
I don't know what that means.  What is descibed in a prophesy comes to pass (or its not exactly a prophesy, is it!).   How does 'audience specific accuracy' come into it?



#210
Plisken
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@keithprosser
Out of curiosity, which laws cited in the study of physics are you referring to?