Universal Basic Income

Author: secularmerlin

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@3RU7AL
Value is something completely different than supply. Show me the limit of supply. That value can vary is obvious, and that variability, itself, is virtually unlimited, but they are different factors.
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@secularmerlin
I mean stop charging people rent and forgive all mortgages and discontinue all property taxes.
I spent my life savings on a four bedroom house last year and I rent out two of those bedrooms for extra side income. By "stop charging rent" it seems you are suggesting that I be made to allow people to live in the house I spent my life working for without getting anything out of the deal myself. This hardly seems fair.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not suggesting that you allow anyone to stay in your house. IF everyone is provided housing then you would not have to.

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@secularmerlin
100% of the population is a homeowner in that scenario then. You say you wish to keep the economy a free market so the question becomes who is constructing these houses and who is paying them to do so? I understand you say you aren't proposing any specifics but I would need somebody to do so before I agree or disagree with the idea.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
 I understand you say you aren't proposing any specifics but I would need somebody to do so before I agree or disagree with the idea.
That is fair enough. Would you say that it is WORTHWHILE to find some way to make sure every human POSSIBLE has a home? 
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@secularmerlin
without asking for anything in return. 
You mean, without having to ask people to give at least personal responsibility to to take care of their personal needs on their own if they are physically and mentally able to do so, but just don't care to be personally productive? I guess you are going to have to tell me why, just because life is a right, let alone the rest of your needs list, do you need life? I'm serious. Tell me why you need life. Your own, that is. As a right, you have it. But why? Do you need life so you can need shelter? Nope. Clothes? Nope. And so on...
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@fauxlaw
take care of their personal needs on their own 
In light of the fact that most of us, rich or poor live in houses we DID NOT build and or eat food we DID NOT grow and or receive medical care from SOMEONE ELSE and or require social interaction with OTHERS perhaps you should describe exactly what you mean by take care of their personal needs on their own.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
100% of the population is a homeowner in that scenario then. You say you wish to keep the economy a free market so the question becomes who is constructing these houses and who is paying them to do so? I understand you say you aren't proposing any specifics but I would need somebody to do so before I agree or disagree with the idea.
The theory is that rental property would be converted to rent-to-own property, including apartments (each rent payment would purchase some small equity in the property that could later be sold to someone else at a later date).

The theory is that without rental property artificially reducing supply, the actual market value of shelter would be much lower than it is now (making shelter more affordable).
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@secularmerlin
I do live in a house I built [paying others to assist, but it was my design, and much of my labor], however, I have lived in houses others built, but it was my money that bought them. My money that furnished them. My money that bought the food and clothes. That's what I mean by personal responsibility. I buy very little on credit. I have a credit card, by I pay it in full monthly; I do not maintain an outstanding balance. AZs a rewsult, I have an excellent credit rating, and can borrow just about whatever I want. I choose not to. I do it, so I know it can be done. I made sure to take advantage of my youthful opportunity to educate myself [I paid for that, too] so that I could reach higher in earning potential so that I could live as I now live. I don't own a boat, an RV, jetskis, etc. I rent these when I want them, which is occasional, but, in the meantime, I have not sold my soul, or my income, to maintain these luxuries. 

That's what I mean by personal responsibility.
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@fauxlaw
I have lived in houses others built, but it was my money that bought them. 
So the measure of someone's SUBSTANTIVE EXERCISABLE right to life is money? 

wealth = right to live

Would you agree with this equation?
3RU7AL
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@fauxlaw
That's what I mean by personal responsibility.
So, you're saying you received no assistance from your parents and or friends and will grant no assistance to your children if and or when you happen to spawn them.
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@secularmerlin
Would you say that it is WORTHWHILE to find some way to make sure every human POSSIBLE has a home?
I would say it is worthwhile for someone other than me to make sure of that, I have enough on my hands just trying to keep my own in good repair.
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@3RU7AL
The theory is that rental property would be converted to rent-to-own property, including apartments
It sounds like under that theory I would be legally required to either:

A) Convert my current rental agreement with my tenants to a rent-to-own agreement on a property I do not wish to sell.

B) Stop having tenants, in other words kick them out.

Am I missing some third option?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would say it is worthwhile for someone other than me to make sure of that, I have enough on my hands just trying to keep my own in good repair.
I do not think any one person is capable of solving nor should be solely held responsible for the problem of homelessness. It is a problem that can only be addressed by an entire society. No man is an island. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Am I missing some third option?
Temporarily selling them equity to be repaid at a later date upon the relinquishing of the property to you.
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@secularmerlin
Temporarily selling them equity to be repaid at a later date upon the relinquishing of the property to you.
For our purposes that is just option B with extra steps. The point is that if they are at some point relinquishing the property to me because they are moving out then they will need to find some other place to live. Demand for housing would spike while supply at best remains stable, thus all else being equal property prices would increase. If the goal is to make getting housing easier this does not seem like an ideal outcome.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That's just option B with extra steps. 
The extra steps being someone having a place to shelter temporarily yes.
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@secularmerlin
The point of my post was to describe the impact that would have on the market. Do you think my analysis was flawed in some way?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Why would demand be higher than it currently is? This is a genuine question. I do not pretend to be an expert in the housing market any more than I am a social engineer. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
(IFF) you are "renting" someone a necessity (THEN) they should receive something tangible in return for their money.

(IFF) you want to sell some space in your home (THEN) fractionalize your home and sell the fractions (like shares of stock in a corporation).

Of course it makes sense that "single family homes" would have different rules than an apartment complex or other commercial property, but I'm just trying to integrate your example.

Perhaps you could convert your home into a "private club" with a very exclusive membership list that stipulates dues are paid monthly?
3RU7AL
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@Discipulus_Didicit
 Demand for housing would spike
Naked assertion.

while supply at best remains stable,
Naked assertion.

thus all else being equal property prices would increase.
Naked assertion.
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@secularmerlin
Why would demand be higher than it currently is?
Demand is loosely defined as the number of people willing and able to buy. Let's say there are currently 30 people trying to buy a home in my local area. If the two people I am renting my upstairs bedrooms to move out to buy a home there will be 32 people in my local area trying to buy, thus an increase in demand. Potential sellers have more prospective buyers to take offers from, it is made more competitive for the buyers.

Now there may be other separate cases of landlords who own property just for the purpose of renting those properties out and those people may be forced to sell those homes, likely at a loss, rather than upkeep them for no financial gain (option A of my previous post). That may seem to be an increase in supply at first glance (supply being defined as the number of properties for sale on the market) but this would have no effect on the net supply/demand of the market due to that properties previous tenant being added to the demand pool at the same time.

A potentially easier way to think of it... If two friends named Alice and Brandy are currently living together in an apartment because neither can afford the rent alone and not because they actually want to live together (a common situation) then some entity - likely governmental but the details are not relevant - announces that they wish to guarantee everyone has housing then Alice and Brandy will take advantage of that program to get their own places. Now suddenly two living units are required, one for Alice and one for Brandy, where only one unit was required before. Where does that extra unit come from?
Discipulus_Didicit
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) you are "renting" someone a necessity (THEN) they should receive something tangible in return for their money.
I live in Michigan, a roof over one's head is very tangible this time of year.

(IFF) you want to sell some space in your home (THEN) fractionalize your home and sell the fractions (like shares of stock in a corporation).
I purchased a four bedroom house for $94,500. If I did as you propose then let's say the value of each bedroom to be around $10,000-$12,000 (some value tied up in common areas such as the kitchen and living room). Not everyone has that type of cash laying around.

Of course it makes sense that "single family homes" would have different rules than an apartment complex or other commercial property, but I'm just trying to integrate your example.
The concept is the same. Let's say an apartment complex worth $2 million has 50 units being rented out. Fractionalized, each of those units are valued at about $40,000. Again not everyone has that kind of cash to spare.

Perhaps you could convert your home into a "private club" with a very exclusive membership list that stipulates dues are paid monthly?
This would essentially be renting. All this would do is avoid the stigma of the actual word "rent", which does not seem helpful.

 Demand for housing would spike
Naked assertion.

while supply at best remains stable,
Naked assertion.

thus all else being equal property prices would increase.
Naked assertion.
I explained why this is the case from an economic perspective in more detail in post 112. Not a naked assertion, just naked facts.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Demand is loosely defined as the number of people willing and able to buy. Let's say there are currently 30 people trying to buy a home in my local area. If the two people I am renting my upstairs bedrooms to move out there will be 32 people in my local area trying to buy a house, thus an increase in demand. Potential sellers have more prospective buyers to take offers from, it is made more competitive for the buyers.Now there may be other separate cases of landlords who own property just for the purpose of renting those properties out and those people may be forced to sell those homes, likely at a loss, rather than upkeep them for no financial gain (option A of my previous post). That may seem to be an increase in supply at first glance (supply being defined as the number of people wanting to sell a property) but this would have no effect on the net supply/demand of the market due to that properties previous tenant being added to the demand pool at the same time.A potentially easier way to think of it... If two friends named Alice and Brandy are currently living together in an apartment because neither can afford the rent alone and not because they actually want to live together (a common situation) then some entity - likely governmental but the details are not relevant - announces that they wish to guarantee everyone has housing then Alice and Brandy will take advantage of that program to get their own places. Now suddenly two living units are required, one for Alice and one for Brandy, where only one unit was required before. Where does that extra unit come from?
Simply fractionalize the property.

You must give your tenants shares of your property (LLC) in exchange for rent (rent-to-own).

OR, sell the individual units (either apartments or single-family-homes) to the existing tenants (rent-to-own or they can apply for a loan).

Both supply and demand should remain unchanged.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The concept is the same. Let's say an apartment complex worth $2 million has 50 units being rented out. Fractionalized, each of those units are valued at about $40,000. Again not everyone has that kind of cash to spare.
I'm not suggesting anyone be required to pay the full amount up-front.

For example, someone might pay $750 per month and live in the same apartment for 10 years.

This would be about $90,000.00 in total.
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@3RU7AL
Simply fractionalize the property.
This would require a loan for most people, so you are okay with mortgages existing?

Further there are many cases where renting is better than buying. My newest roommate moved in a week ago and plans on only staying for 6 months then he is going back to California. Renting for $350 a month is easier than trying to get a $12,000 loan to buy my room and paying interest on that loan only to have to try to sell it in 6 months and hope that someone happens to be interested in buying it back just as he moves out so he can repay the loan.
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@secularmerlin
@3RU7AL
All I am saying is that if the goal is to reduce homelessness to 0% there are simpler ways to do that than trying to increase home ownership to 100%.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am not necessarily advocating making home ownership to 100% I am nearly evaluating ideas. I am interested in your simpler idea. If the idea is to IMPROVE the situation then the answer need not be perfect merely better than what we currently have. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Simply fractionalize the property.
This would require a loan for most people, so you are okay with mortgages existing?
You seem to have missed my primary hypothetical.

When your tenants pay rent you will give them a share of the building.

This does not require a loan.

Each share represents some fractional ownership of that building in the same way that owning stock represents some fractional ownership of a company.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Now suddenly two living units are required, 
This is not what I am suggesting. I am not arguing that everyone have PRIVATE residences but only adequate shelter.