Why Did the Jews Believe Jesus to be Possessed?

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 54
#31
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@rosends



.
rosends,

YOUR HAVING TO MUCH TUPI 60 CONSUMPTION QUOTE: "I guess that's the belief, but if I'm holding a lit candle and someone takes a picture of it and draws a mustache on the picture and calls it a firetruck, it isn't a fire truck and I still have the flame."

Huh? Hmmm, metaphorical references in the early morning without my 5th cup of coffee are a challenge! Okay, your serial killer Yahweh still exists in your way of thinking even though the Christians stole him for their god in the New Testament?  Therefore, it's the Christians that "think" they have your Yahweh and got caught in holding the bag of a myth because you got Yahweh first?  Am I close?


.



#32
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@fauxlaw



Stephen,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE REGARDING THE UNGODLY FAUXLAW:  "Tell me Brother, do you think that  it is at all possible for one  to forget that one is   " a student in Greek"?  It would be like forgetting one's own name , surely?"

Remember when I stated that FAUXLAW seemingly slipped on his Freudian in the posted links below relative to being a "Student of Greek" in a sexual way?  

FAUXLAW'S DIRECT QUOTE: " I, too, am a student of Greek, and can confirm the Bringer's contextual argument is spot on, and Stephen is completely dismissing it, to his laughable credit."

After FAUXLAW admitted he was a "Student of Greek," which is an ungodly act, and forgetting altogether about the notion of using Greek translations relative to the Bible because this calls Jesus a LIAR, he was caught in a sexual way!  Think, this is the only thing left when he only said "I am a student of Greek," where he didn't say "I am a student of Greek history and language."  Therefore FAUXLAW once again goes directly against Jesus' inspired words herewith: "If a man also lie with mankind, As he lieth with a woman, Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death,; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

As we both know, when the two of us easily Bible Slap Silly®️ the totally Bible inept pseudo-christians within this esteemed Religion forum, we throw them off kilter to the point where they "come out," so to speak, and show us who they truly are. In this case, I still say that FAUXLAW has admitted to being new at following the homosexual lifestyle with his quote of "I am a student of Greek!"  2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, and FAUXLAW should have a "coming out party" post haste and move on with his ungodly life.  

In the name of the hung Savior,

Brother D. Thomas



.





#33
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
"your serial killer Yahweh still exists in your way of thinking even though the Christians stole him for their god in the New Testament?  Therefore, it's the Christians that "think" they have your Yahweh and got caught in holding the bag of a myth because you got Yahweh first?  Am I close?"

Spot on, Bro D, spot on.
Topic's author
#34
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
I think this goes someway in explaining what is meant by "possessed by a demon" biblically.

Matthew12: 22  Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.

We see here , the bible clearly says the man was "blind"  and "mute"  this on the face of it appears to be talking about physical impediments. 
But considering the way in which Jesus and those at the time spoke and wrote, this could simply mean a person that refuses to  see and hear what is being shown to them, ie regarded as "demon possessed".

I am of the opinion that is simply a  ritual of performed by Jesus of  raising someone into his movement, thereby making him understand (hear his message)  and see it clearly. Jesus had simply raised this man from among those he considered  "dead" and deaf and blind and mute to his movement of the living. I. E. he had exorcised this man of his demon , he had converted him.
Jesus had simply made the man a disciple and in turn the once blind mute was able to hear and see (understand)  his message and go out and talk/preach about it to others

Jeremiah 5:21

New King James Version


21 ‘Hear this now, O foolish people,
Without understanding,
Who have eyes and see not,
And who have ears and hear not:

#35
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@rosends


.
rosends,

YOUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO ME "ALLEGEDLY" SOLVING THE PUZZLE OF YAHWEH STILL BEING YOUR GOD AND THEREFORE JESUS IS A MYTH: "Spot on, Bro D, spot on."

Hmmmm, you are not just placating me to save further discussion upon this topic, are you, because this is your chance to show the pseudo-christians, and myself as a TRUE Christian that follows and accepts ALL of the Bible,  that they in fact do not have a Jesus character as Yahweh God incarnate!  In this respect, it is disturbing to me for this proposition shown above to be possibly true because the historical fact that Jesus' history subsequent to Him being hung when on the cross, is non existent to say the least!  

As you may know, Jesus' alleged first mentioning wasn't until Josephus' Antiquities 89 years after Jesus death! Huh? This is like Neil Armstrong landing on the moon and walking on it for the first time in the history of man, and having not a single person write about it during the time it occurred, but only until 89 years later!  Besides, Jesus being the one god of the entire universe that He created, plus man and all the animals, wasn't mentioned for the first time until 89 years later? Jesus H. Christ, WTF! The rest of the history of Jesus goes down hill from Josephus mentioning Him, which always tests my faith to the nines!

Uh, should you create a thread regarding the sparse facts shown above relative to my serial killer Jesus, *cough,* and where your Yahweh God still exists,  therefore Jesus is a myth, where if you would allow me to be included within this hopeful thread, I could include other historical facts of the vacancy of my Jesus in history which disturbs me to no end.  :(


.



.


#36
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
But that just feeds into my point -- the gospels use a concept to label physical infirmity in a style that is inconsistent with Jewish thought. All that does it show a deep problem with the claims in the gospels.
#37
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
I promise -- I'm not just placating you. I try to avoid the discussions of Christianity and I let it be what it wants to claim it is. You wrote, "this is your chance to show the pseudo-christians, and myself as a TRUE Christian that follows and accepts ALL of the Bible,  that they in fact do not have a Jesus character as Yahweh God incarnate!"

But I don't want to show anyone anything. If they have claims, I can discuss individual claims but I won't go out of my way to try to prove anything to anyone. I know the historical incongruities and the biblical inaccuracies but I'll let others trumpet them from the rooftops.


Topic's author
#38
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends


All that does it show a deep problem with the claims in the gospels.

I couldn't agree more and that is my point. These unreliable and  anomalous gospels are not what they appear to be on the surface, and  something that I have been saying since I joined.

I believe the Jesus story can be explained easily once we do away with the "miracles" and look at this as the ancient power struggle of the time that it was. Once we recognise all the players for what they are then the whole story of Jesus and his failed mission can be understood.

A starting point is that Jesus believed that he was rightful heir to the throne of David (a son of god) and these gospel writers have gone to great lengths to prove and show that he was. 

I have said many times that Jesus and his movement regarded anyone not in their circle as "the dead" and themselves "the living".  Just understanding this explains the "raising from the dead" of Lazarus.John 11:43   The story of the long lost "dead son".Luke 15:11-32.  The episode of  Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira just dropping down dead (excommunication)Acts 5:1-11. 

And it would perfectly explain that one enigmatic biblical verse   -"let the dead bury the dead"Luke 9:60
Topic's author
#39
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
I believe all of these expressions of  "having a demon"  and being a " leper" being "blind" or "deaf" or a "sinner" or "dead" are simply expressions that are natural to a native speaker of those ancient times and  particularly those that belonged to the Jesus movement and are stages of initiation into his circle.
Ex: The story of the long lost "dead son".Luke 15:11-32 that was neither lost nor dead in reality.


In other words - idiomatic 
#40
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Would this mean that the answer to your question in the original post is "they didn't think Jesus was possessed because they were speaking using euphemisms and idioms"?
Topic's author
#41
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
Would this mean that the answer to your question in the original post is "they didn't think Jesus was possessed because they were speaking using euphemisms and idioms"?

    That is what I believe. As I said, in the example,  the long lost dead son was neither dead nor lost. He found his way back home and he was alive when he did so.    It was  case of him simply being wayward or rebellious and disrespectful in his fathers house. And as all teenagers do, they think they know better and are old enough to do what they like. But the lost dead son came to his senses eventually and returned home.

The brothers complained but the father said ;

Luke 15:32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’” 

Lazarus wasn't "dead"  he had just lost faith in the movement or was frightened or both. These were high stakes, lives were in danger. It appears that he preferred to return to live among the "dead" rather than to live with Jesus among the  "living".

Jesus neither had a demon or was he  mad. What he was doing and saying - in secret - was against all the rules. He was mad to try it and his mother - among others - must have wondered what had ever "possessed" him to attempt such a thing as to claim to be messiah and heir to the throne and the high priesthood.

Two of my own  nephews  "went off the rails"  it didn't make then locomotives.

But these are only my opinions. 

 


#42
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I don't know Greek and I don't know what was idiomatic in Greek 2000 years ago, so it is impossible for me to know what anyone (if anyone actually "said" what is written down in the gospels) said about Jesus. If someone said "he is possessed", for that to be idiomatic, there would have to be a level of belief, accuracy, parallel value or at least metaphorical relevance. My only point is that within Jewish thought, there really isn't a precedent which would lead one to using that as a figure of speech. I guess one can chalk it all up to figures of speech but it is impossible to know if people back then used these phrases in an idiomatic fashion or not.
Topic's author
#43
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
 I guess one can chalk it all up to figures of speech but it is impossible to know if people back then used these phrases in an idiomatic fashion or not.

Well, in the case of the "lost dead son" unless one believes that a person that has been dead for days , weeks , months or years can be brought back to life then there is no other answer imo.  Besides, there is no mention of anyone finding he that was "lost" (he appears to have "found"  himself)  and there is no mention of anyone raising him from the  "dead" either.  So I  wonder how he managed that trick?   I am sure you get my point, rosi.


The gospels are either complete fabrication or there are explanations to these stories that appear on the surface to be total and  utter bollocks to the modern reader.


 My only point is that within Jewish thought, there really isn't a precedent which would lead one to using that as a figure of speech.

Are you saying that in Jewish thought, vocabulary or literature, idioms are never used?  Not even -   a drop in the bucket. Meaning: “a very small, insignificant amount.”?   Or 

the apple of one’s eye.?  What about this verse that is talking about sexual intercourse:  Genesis 4:1 King James Version


I don't know Greek 

Ah yes the Greek translation excuse used by many Christians when one of these gospel anomalies jumps up and slaps them in the face.

  When Christians attempt to spring the problem of the atheist not "understanding Greek" , ancient or otherwise, the theists  obviously do not realise that they are rendering all English  written bibles unreliable and not even worth picking up.    This is how blind ,backward and desperate they are to "prove" their scriptures the "unalterable " word of god and cannot be mistaken or at fault.

There have been many occasions here where the "Greek" excuse has been used in attempts to defend the "holy scriptures" that are written in English. But given the opportunity to correct certain English written words, sentences or whole  verses in the English written bible, they simply fail, every time:  recent example available on request.
#44
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Are you saying that in Jewish thought, vocabulary or literature, idioms are never used

No, I'm saying that idioms have to make sense culturally (a culture that doesn't know what a bucket is won't have the idiom "a drop in the bucket"). If Judaism had no concept of possession by demons, why would it use the idiom to describe a physical state (unless the claim is that the phrase trickled in from surrounding cultures and isn't native). TO have the gospels claim that Jews said that Jesus was "possessed" and then explain that as "he isn't possessed but that was the vernacular idiom that the Jews picked up from people around them who also spoke their language" would then require that someone shows that in the contemporary parlance (possibly Aramaic) that was a known phrase. Lacking corroborative external texts makes that difficult.

It is certainly more sensical to see the language as figurative and assume that the figures of speech are simply borrowed from other religious cultures. I'm not doubting that. I just think that it is equally sensible to say that the use of those idioms shows the inaccuracy and inauthenticity of the text as a whole.

My statement that I don't know Greek was simply to point out that I have no way of knowing if this phrase is written in a way which makes it a common idiom or if the language somehow points to a non-literal reading or not. Since I don't know Greek, I refrain from judging on that level.
#45
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@rosends
.
rosends,


YOUR #37 POST QUOTE REGARDING CHRISTIANITY:  "I try to avoid the discussions of Christianity and I let it be what it wants to claim it is"

Well, when Christianity pisses on your camp fire, you would think that you would defend your version of godly writings, whereas Christianity is essentially claiming that it stole your Yahweh God and made Him into a Triune concept of Jesus being god, the son of god, and the Holy Spirit, would be enough fodder to stand up to this notion!  Oh well.  :(


YOUR REVEALING QUOTE AGAIN RELATIVE TO YOUR FOE CHRISTIANITY:  "But I don't want to show anyone anything. If they have claims, I can discuss individual claims but I won't go out of my way to try to prove anything to anyone. I know the historical incongruities and the biblical inaccuracies but I'll let others trumpet them from the rooftops."

As shown ad infinitum within this forum, I "trumpet" from the roof tops in showing the TRUE words of Jesus the Christ subsequent to we TRUE Christians stealing your Yahweh God for our God now.  In any event, subjectively, it would have been "fun" as a team to use the Judeo-Christian Bible, Talmud,  Torah, 5 books of Moses, and the Tanakh to Slap the pseudo-christian crowd silly within this forum.  


In the name of the hung Savior,

Brother D. Thomas


.



26 days later

#46
eventuality001
eventuality001's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 66
0
0
3
eventuality001's avatar
eventuality001
0
0
3
The  Bible  shows    -    a progression involving  _     the evolution of the forces of evil, meaning,   Spirits that operated as an Adversary or as an  Opponent against human beings.
 
Adversary       -     means  =     -  Satan…… in  Hebrew..
 
At first, these spirits were at times permitted to be involved as a spiritual influence upon individuals    -   to the testing,  tempting  and trying of individuals to determine their true intentions and condition of their mind and heart.
 
At first,  in the Old Testament  there were  spirits  that  were designed to be sent to entice and tempt mankind.
 
   These spirits are not depicted as making efforts or attempts   -    to possess and take control of people  or  to harm individuals
 
there were  mainly Old  Testament spirits  that were  tempters and testers in matters concerning disobedience  -  disbelief  and doubt  and  foolishness and other various natural instincts found in human beings.
 
These spirits knew some details concerning the future and began communicating with humans involving  necromancy and witchcraft and fortunetelling and other paths of religious worship that began to veer and stray away from the designated path that  God  had  prescribed for man.  
 
As time passed over thousands of years these spirits began to make a choice to leave their design and purpose and began to rebel against God.
 
These spirits were given  free  will  -   free choice  -  to serve or to rebel against god.  The Spirits began to slowly develop a hatred and jealousy and animosity toward human beings and determined to destroy and corrupt the human race. 
 
The Spirits then began to develop or learn more about the weakness and imperfections and frailty of humans and began to involve themselves in the direct destruction and ruination and in the controlled development of  leading humans astray  -  by influencing mankind to destroy themselves and one another.
 
As time progressed, the spirits rebelled against God and literally left heaven and abandoned the service and summoning of God and dedicated all of their time and energy to the fall and destruction and corruption of mankind   -as they developed  a hatred  jealousy and  detestation  for  the  relationship  that  God  desired  with his creation on earth.
 
By the time of   -   the New Testament era,  the Spirits had completely rebelled against god and were at war with God and sought to completely bring death, destruction and evil upon all mankind.  

Possession  and  Control  over  humanity  eventually  became  the  ONLY  focus  of these  spirits  who  had  rebelled.

   And the New Testament shows and describes this in detail.

The Jewish  leaders were upset because  Jesus  was accusing them of being or existing  from  the  evil  spirit of the  Adversary  - the Devil  /  Satan.

If you read the chapter, Jesus is accusing them of belonging to  or  being from the adversarial spirit world  - of the adversary  -  Satan.

So the Jewish leaders simply replied to him  or  responded to him by accusing him of being possessed by an adversarial spirit.


Topic's author
#47
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@eventuality001
So the Jewish leaders simply replied to him  or  responded to him by accusing him of being possessed by an adversarial spirit.


 Like I have said.   Being  "possessed" in those ancient time could mean a number of things. I have listed a few on this thread, including being ill, disagreeing, going against the grain or  upsetting the status quo. It doesn't mean that one has been over taken by an evil entity. 

Being "possessed" was the idiom of the day. It is used today too. i.e - "whatever possessed you to do that"?

For instance:   look at all these different versions of the same single verse and how the word demon/ possessed interchanges and is  used along side the words insane/mad/out of his mind/crazy and lost his senses.

All the same verse>>John 10:20

Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

Some said, “He’s demon possessed and out of his mind. Why listen to a man like that?”

Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?”

Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?”

And many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?"

And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?"

And many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

Many of them said, “He has a demon and He is mad [insane—He raves and rambles]. Why listen to Him?”

Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and he’s crazy. Why do you listen to him? ”

Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and He's crazy! Why do you listen to Him?"

And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Many of them said, "He has a demon in him! He is crazy! Why listen to him?"

And many of them said: He hath a devil, and is mad: why hear you him?

And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Many of them were saying, "He has a demon! He is crazy! Why do you listen to him?"

Many of them said, "He's possessed by a demon! He's crazy! Why do you listen to him?"

Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why bother listening to him?"

and many of them said, “He has a demon, and is mad, why do you hear Him?”

Many of them were saying, "He is possessed by a demon and has lost his mind! Why do you listen to him?"

Many of them said, "He has a demon, and is insane. Why do you listen to him?"

Many of them said, "He is possessed by a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to him?"

Many of them said, "He has a demon, and is insane! Why do you listen to him?"

and many of them said, 'He hath a demon, and is mad, why do ye hear him?'


 And let us not forget,  that even  Jesus' own mother believed him to be “He is out of His mind.” and to have  "lost his senses" thought " he was crazy"  " become mad"   and on it goes.here>>.

all the same verse>>
Mark 3:21
When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
When his family heard what was happening, they tried to take him away. “He’s out of his mind,” they said.

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, “He is out of His mind.”

And those belonging to Him having heard, went out to seize Him; for they were saying, "He is out of His mind."
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

And when His own people heard about this, they came out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”

When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."

And when His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”
When His own family heard this they went to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He is out of His mind.”

When his family heard this, they set out to restrain him, because they said, “He’s out of his mind.”

When His family heard this, they set out to restrain Him, because they said, "He's out of His mind."

And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

When Jesus' family heard what he was doing, they thought he was crazy and went to get him under control.

And when his friends had heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said: He is become mad.

And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

When his family heard about it, they set out to take charge of him, because people were saying, "He's gone mad!"

When his family heard about it, they went to get him. They said, "He's out of his mind!"

When his family heard about it, they went to restrain him, because they kept saying, "He's out of his mind!"
and those alongside Him having heard, went forth to lay hold on Him, for they said that He was beside Himself,
When his family heard this they went out to restrain him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
And when his family heard it, they went out to take charge of him: for they said, "He is out of his mind."
Hearing of this, His relatives came to seize Him by force, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

When his friends heard it, they went out to seize him: for they said, "He is insane."
and his friends having heard, went forth to lay hold on him, for they said that he was beside himself




13 days later

#48
eventuality001
eventuality001's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 66
0
0
3
eventuality001's avatar
eventuality001
0
0
3
-->
@Stephen
There is no doubt that at times  the disciples of  Yahashua  /  Je Zeus  did wonder if  he  was  possessed  or out of his mind.

According to the Bible    -   even the little brothers of Yahashua did not believe his message.

Joh 7:2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand. 
 :3  His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 

 :5  For neither did his brethren believe in him. 

There were times when his family and the apostles and disciples doubted and felt uncertainty about the message of Yahashua,  even Peter denied he even knew him on three separate occasions.

If you read the full story, instead of focusing in   -  only upon partial phrases    and partial verses    and  one line    one  step  / one verse   theological  conclusions  you will find that

The ministry of  Yahashua  is explaining who Yahoshua truly is. So already from the beginning Of His ministry and at the beginning of all of the Apostles and Disciples ministry - they were learning and finding out and discovering themselves  information  about Yahoshua - and who He was. We see this learning process as it is recorded.

By the time this learning process is complete - the author's give an account and record of what they learned and how they learned these things about Yahoshua as what they believe is the Holy Spirit verifying who Yahoshua truly is.

None of them- knew or understand who Yahoshua truly was - nor understood His mission and purpose here in earth.

They wrote the Bible in the context of a learning processed - a day to day account of what they learned, experienced, and how they learned and discovered these things.

His ministry explaining who Yahoshua truly is. So already from the beginning Of His ministry and at the beginning of all of the Apostles and Disciples ministry - they were learning and finding out and discovering themselves about Yahoshua - and who He was. We see this learning process as it is recorded.

They wrote the Bible in the context of learning  as processed - a day-to-day account of what they learned, experienced, and how they learned and discovered these things.

So to take a one line  /  ONE  STEP  THEOLOGICAL  Catholic  or  Trinitarian  or  Islamic  approach to the Bible   -

  this does not present the full  story   -  it only provides support for a pre  - conceived    -   presumed narrative by using this  ONE  STEP  THEOLOGY   reasoning.   This is exactly what  Trinitarians  and  Muslims themselves are doing.

Try moving beyond the  one step mindset  and read the surrounding context  and review the full story and circumstances  instead of just ripping a line out here and there and inventing a new theology and new faith about something that is not in context of the surrounding body of the manuscripts.



Topic's author
#49
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@eventuality001
If you read the full story,

Take a leaf from your own book and read all of this thread _  in full.


So to take a one line  /  ONE  STEP  THEOLOGICAL  Catholic  or  Trinitarian  or  Islamic  approach to the Bible   -

  this does not present the full  story   -  it only provides support for a pre  - conceived    -   presumed narrative by using this  ONE  STEP  THEOLOGY   reasoning. 

That is just another way of you saying I am cherry picking and not understanding the "context".


Like I have said.   Being  "possessed" in those ancient time could mean a number of things. I have listed a few on this thread, including being ill, disagreeing, going against the grain or  upsetting the status quo. It doesn't mean that one has been over taken by an evil entity. 


#50
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
“ Why are you trying to kill me?”“You are demon-possessed,”the crowd answered.  7: 19-20
Hi Stephen, I had to find which gospel you were referring to - It is John.  When I read the passage, it appears that during the Feast v.14 Jesus is teaching such that the Jews were amazed by his teaching.  In fact they were so amazed they ask "How did this man get such learning without having studied?" 

It sounds like they were pretty impressed with his learning and wisdom. Perhaps that is why they thought he was demon - possessed? Perhaps his amazing   learning surprised them so much that their only explanation was a  supernatural one. Demons, I suppose might account for this in their minds. Although this might be a plausible explanation, it appears from v. 20  the Jews think Jesus is demon -possessed because he is accusing them of wanting to kill him.  It actually does not sound so much like they think he is demon - possessed as much as they think he is crazy..  But in either event, it is clear that it springs from his accusation that he believed they were trying to kill him.  And if he was making accusations from nowhere their speculation may have merit but John 5:18 indicates that the Jews were trying to kill him.  So his accusation was founded in fact.  It is therefore arguable that the Jews accusation of demon-possession was without basis in this situation. It would also seem mean spirited to give their accusation any weight, given that we are privy to what the author has indicated about the Jews wanting to kill him. 

Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?” John8:48
This response by the Jews is because Jesus has not only accused them again of wanting to kill him, 8:40 but because Jesus accused them of being sons of the Devil, not of Abraham.  The Jews believed themselves to be the children of Abraham and would naturally take any accusation to the contrary as being demonic.  They would see any rejection of their system as being anti-God; therefore demonic.  

Jesus however in 8:49 clearly indicated he is not demon-possessed.  So the question has to be debatable. Not conclusive. 


Jesus's own family appear to agree with those that wanted to kill him too.....

saying : "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?" John10:20– Mark3:21
John 10:20 is quoting the Jews not his family.  And why do you not quote v.21 which provides an alternative explanation?  Not every Jew thought he was demon-possessed. Some, it appears believed that demon-possession was inconsistent with healing. 

Mark 3:21 is in the context of Jesus attending to the needs of a crowd, so much that he and the disciples cannot even eat.  This is when his family came and said "he is out of his mind". There is nothing in that context about him being demon possessed.  It might be that they are saying he is mad; yet the more likely scenario - at least from the context is that they thought he was foolish putting his mission above his own health.  Was their concern for his wellbeing because he was  not eating or because they thought he was mad? 

Was Jesus sick, or mad, or possessed as the scriptures describe.   It is all doubtful isn't that  the son of god aka god to Christians , could  be possessed isn't it? 
I don't think the passages necessitate your summation at all. In fact the passages seem to indicate Jesus was in his right mind and was not demon possessed and that he was acting quite ok.  


So is there a single explanation why these Jews, including Jesus' own family which included the handpicked virgin herself -  Mary mother of God - would even suggest that Jesus son of god was possessed with a demon? 
I don't see in Mark 3:21 where Mary thought Jesus was demon-possessed. I am not a scholar like you - but if you provide the verse that would be helpful.  Saying he is out of his mind is not the same as demon possession. I also am not sure why there needs to be a single explanation. The Jews had two reasons, one Jesus accused them of wanting to kill him.  And those who are trying to kill him would naturally resort to such lies and tactics in order to distract attention from themselves.  Two, Jesus is suggesting that the entire Jewish system has become so corrupted that it no longer contained children of Abraham.  It is natural that those Jews in such a corrupt system would deny their corruptness and again attempt to assassinate the character of Jesus. 



Topic's author
#51
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967
Was Jesus sick, or mad, or possessed as the scriptures describe.   It is all doubtful isn't that  the son of god aka god to Christians , could  be possessed isn't it? 
I don't think the passages necessitate your summation at all. In fact the passages seem to indicate Jesus was in his right mind and was not demon possessed and that he was acting quite ok.  

And that is my whole point.  ANYONE said to have a demon or to be  demon possessed was accused of such for any number of reasons, as I have already pointed out. I have listed a few on this thread, including being ill, disagreeing, going against the grain or  upsetting the status quo. It doesn't mean that one has been over taken by an evil entity. 
#52
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
And that is my whole point.  ANYONE said to have a demon or to be  demon possessed was accused of such for any number of reasons, as I have already pointed out. I have listed a few on this thread, including being ill, disagreeing, going against the grain or  upsetting the status quo. It doesn't mean that one has been over taken by an evil entity.
ahh so your point is not that Jesus was demon possessed but that their culture would synonymously put being mad and other ill stuff in the same context as demon possession. Interesting stuff Stephen. 

Yet you did not address the author's clear inference that Jesus was not demon -possessed even though he was accused by others of the same. And nor did you provide a verse which indicates his mother and family thought he was demon-possessed.   (I mention this only because if it was the view of the culture - the author presumably would fall foul to the same notion) 

I also wonder whether it is accurate to suggest that ANYONE said to have a demon can be equated with EVERYONE said to have a demon?  I suppose you can elaborate on that.   
Topic's author
#53
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Timid8967


Yet you did not address the author's clear inference that Jesus was not demon -possessed even though he was accused by others of the same.

Which author? And I have made it clear that being accused of being "demon possessed ", could mean any amount of things in those times.

And nor did you provide a verse which indicates his mother and family thought he was demon-possessed. 

No what I did was show that being accused of being mad didn't mean he was "mad/ beside himself/out of his mind or had lost his senses" NOR did it mean he was "demon possessed"  John the baptist too was said to have had " a demon".....
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luke 7:33

For John the Baptist didn’t spend his time eating bread or drinking wine, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’Luke 7:33

......Yet Jesus had the baptist down as the greatest prophet that ever walked the planet, if the scriptures are to be believed.  So we see, that just being different and unconventional  one can be accused of being "demon possessed". 



As I have wrote above:

I think this goes someway in explaining what is meant by "possessed by a demon" biblically.
Matthew12: 22  Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.#34

I believe that this shows- if it is to be taken literally - that simply suffering from and infliction/illness as in the case of this man, one is also considered to be possessed? I say this because both terms- possessed and illness -  are used in the same sentence as with the accusations levelled at Jesus example:

Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?" John 10:20 So suffering insanity or simply talking bollocks is being equated to being demon possessed" <<<<<<<< Jesus is accused by his family of being "mad/ beside himself/out of his mind or had lost his senses" they just don't use the idiom " possessed" in the same sentence as do may other verses do when illness, infliction, deafness, blindness and being mute, it spoken about.





I also wonder whether it is accurate to suggest that ANYONE said to have a demon can be equated with EVERYONE said to have a demon?  

 Being accused of "having a demon" and being  "demon  possessed" could mean two different things. And I didn't say everyone and to my memory neither do the scriptures, they say " many" and "some" another simply says  "the Jews".




#54
Timid8967
Timid8967's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 459
2
2
2
Timid8967's avatar
Timid8967
2
2
2
-->
@Stephen
Thanks Stephen.