Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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#181
Tarik
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@secularmerlin
They are if you cannot be certain what form they will take or how one goes about following the rules to receive each.
You don’t need to know the “form” to know your being rewarded or punished, and how one goes about following the rules to receive each isn’t my argument, it’s just what YOU’RE concerned with.

I just don't see what specifically about a mindless universe equals nihilism.
Google is free if you don’t know what nihilism is.

Are you asking how I avoid the problem of soft nihilism?
Nihilism is nihilism there is no distinction in this case.

I just make up some shit and find meaning in that.
Isn’t that the definition of ignorance?

We seem to need meaning even if it is only something we are pretending to have.
Then why does it seem that way?
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#182
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Ok let's start with my primary axiom again. I am experiencing something. Getting input from this experience and from nowhere else it is expedient to operate as though the input were genuine.

That's it. I build from there. 

You say you aren't advocating that there is any intrinsic meaning or that there is a god but that if there isn't a god then there is also no meaning. 

I say so what? I still do things and care about stuff so what difference does it make to me if there is meaning or not according to the definitions you insist on.

If doing things and caring about stuff for my own self determined reasons even purely emotional ones is a part of your definition of the word nihilist then sure but again the words you use are not going to change my view and I personally find things meaningful and that is absolutely a matter of opinion. 

Do we have any more to discuss? Do you have any further questions or clarification about your views? I tried very hard not to overstate your case by assuming that you were advocating that any god(s) or intrinsic meaning do actually exist. 

#183
Tarik
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@secularmerlin
I say so what? I still do things and care about stuff so what difference does it make to me if there is meaning or not according to the definitions you insist on.
Then why do YOU INSIST on asking me what I BELIEVE? Is it because YOU expected a SPECIFIC answer?

I personally find things meaningful and that is absolutely a matter of opinion.
It’s fundamentally impossible to find meaning in something that’s inherently meaningless and that’s a fact.

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#184
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Then why do you INSIST on asking me what I believe? Is it because you expected a SPECIFIC answer?
Not at all and if you don't have anything to add and I haven't misunderstood anything I am actually done asking about your beliefs.
It’s fundamentally impossible to find meaning in something that’s inherently meaningless and that’s a fact.
Actually it's super easy, barely an inconvenience. I actually think most if not all humans do exactly that and I have yet in this interaction heard anything to change my mind. You can say "but it isn't really meaningful at all" all you want but I am fulfilled and have direction anyway.
#185
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@secularmerlin
I am fulfilled and have direction anyway.
I never doubted your fulfillment, and there’s many directions, ignorance is one of them, have a good night ✌🏾.
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#186
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
You keep saying ignorant and I feel like you mean it to be an insult. I would like to point out before we finish that ignorance is a quality we share and that it is not in and of itself a bad thing. Humans can only know those things which can be tested and that is only a tiny fraction of the stuff ergo we are mostly woefully ignorant. 
#187
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@secularmerlin
ignorance is a quality we share
Maybe but in the context of this discussion I’m not ignorant, there are some things in life you can know with absolute certainty, like in order to have meaning reward and/or punishment is required, if you can prove there’s meaning without those two things then I’ll fold my hand, otherwise my argument still stands.

a tiny fraction of the stuff ergo we are mostly woefully ignorant.
Tiny is subjective considering size is limitless, also that statement requires you to know how much “stuff” there is which I doubt.
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#188
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
like in order to have meaning reward and/or punishment is required, 
Let's say this is true what is your point? Let's say ther is no meaning at all of any kind. Then what? That doesn't give us any actionable data. It does nothing to inform our decisions or change the way we live as far as I can tell. I am totally ok with that and don't feel like there has to be any further validation. Why is this sticking in your craw? 

a tiny fraction of the stuff ergo we are mostly woefully ignorant.
Tiny is subjective considering size is limitless, also that statement requires you to know how much “stuff” there is which I doubt.
I don't care to argue the semantics with you. There is a lot human beings don't know and neither of us is the exception to that rule even if there is an exception.
#189
Tarik
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@secularmerlin
I am totally ok with that
So the view that morality of any kind doesn’t exist your okay with? Are you sure about that?

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#190
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
I'm more or less ok with human systems of accountability. Especially my own private system of self accountability. Also it doesn't matter if I'm ok with it or not. I have to live in this universe whether meaning and morality as you define them exist or not right?
#191
Tarik
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@secularmerlin
I'm ok with human systems of accountability. 
To some degree you can argue that accountability isn’t a system rather just a fact of life.

Also it doesn't matter if I'm ok with it or not.
Then why mention it?

I have to live in this universe whether meaning and morality as you define them exist or not right?
Not if you off yourself and get punished for it in the afterlife.
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#192
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Also it doesn't matter if I'm ok with it or not.
Then why mention it?
You asked if I was ok with there being no meaning in the unorthodox way you describe it and this was part of my answer.
Not if you off yourself and get punished for it in the afterlife.
Or indeed if there is no afterlife but either way I rather enjoy my life and am not prepared to engage in any self harm so you don't need to worry.
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#193
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
I'm ok with human systems of accountability. 
To some degree you can argue that accountability isn’t a system rather just a fact of life.
I'm not interested in arguing the semantics. Humans hold each other accountable for their actions including self accountability in many cases even if the universe doesn't right? Like we can observe them doing it. Putting each other in jail and other penalties.
#194
Tarik
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@secularmerlin
You asked if I was ok with there being no meaning in the unorthodox way you describe it and this was part of my answer.
I asked AFTER you said you were okay, I just wanted to clarify what you were signing off to. What makes my description unorthodox? And I’ve yet to get an answer.

I'm not interested in arguing the semantics. Humans hold each other accountable for their actions including self accountability in many cases even if the universe doesn't right? Like we can observe them doing it. Putting each other in jail and other penalties.
It’s misleading to just say that without mentioning the other side we also wrongfully convict when we put in jail and other penalties and we also wrongfully don’t convict and other penalties under our system. Lastly accountability is meaningless in a meaningless life.

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#195
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
What is it you think I'm signing off on exactly? I'm not advocating for example that everyone should just behave however they like regardless of who they hurt only that there doesn't need to be any higher (than human) power to enforce these rules or give me these feelings. 

Your definition of morality is unorthodox in that you disqualify any secular or humanist systems from consideration (and possibly disqualify morality from existing at all). As far as most people are concerned your morals are your list of behaviors that are preferable and acceptable whether personal or shared and whether religious or secular. If you just can't countenance calling my list of preferred and acceptable behaviors morality that is your business but that is very different to saying I don't have one.
#196
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@secularmerlin
What is it you think I'm signing off on exactly?
Nihilism being okay you’ve simply said as much.

Your definition of morality is unorthodox
Before you said my definition of MEANING was unorthodox, morality wasn’t apart of my argument.
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#197
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
I'm not interested in arguing the semantics. Humans hold each other accountable for their actions including self accountability in many cases even if the universe doesn't right? Like we can observe them doing it. Putting each other in jail and other penalties.
It’s misleading to just say that without mentioning the other side we also wrongfully convict when we put in jail and other penalties and we also wrongfully don’t convict and other penalties under our system. Lastly accountability is meaningless in a meaningless life.
Well whether there is any higher power or meaning in life (and again whether there is a thing you call meaning or not I still care about what I care about and that is close enough actual meaning for me) humans do hold each other accountable and the way you define meaning I am perfectly ok with there not being any. In fact I think I prefer that we are responsible for and only to ourselves. I think that makes us more accountable not less. If there is no god and no devil then you can hardly blame them when things don't go your way or when you don't live up to the standards of accountability that society sets for you or that you set for yourself. 

Also yes we get things wrong and convict people wrongfully and there may never be TRUE JUSTICE in the end if that is even a coherent concept but even if that is true and the universe is every bit as fundamentally unfair as it appears to be we still have to just keep going and doing our best to the best of our understanding. There just isn't an alternative to just keeping going and doing the best we can with what we have to work with whether there is a god or any justice or any meaning or even if none of those things exist. In fact if there is no afterlife I would argue that it is even more important to make the best of this life and leave behind a legacy that you can be proud of.

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#198
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Before you said my definition of MEANING was unorthodox, morality wasn’t apart of my argument.
No I was talking about your definition of morality specifically and I'm sorry if I was unclear.
Nihilism being okay you’ve simply said as much.
If I am a nihilist by your definition (and I don't self identify as a nihilist just to be clear) then yes I am 100% on board with nihilism though I am not ok with the idea of just not caring about anything.
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#199
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
Before you said my definition of MEANING was unorthodox, morality wasn’t apart of my argument.
Oh wait I did say that you are right. I meant there being punishment and reward in the afterlife. That is not synonymous with meaning as far as I know although you have adopted it as the ONLY POSSIBLE definition of meaning. 
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#200
secularmerlin
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THE ONLY POSSIBLE DEFINITION OF MEANING a universal system of punishment and reward as yet undefined and governed by rules as yet undetailed.

THE ONLY POSSIBLE DEFINITION OF MORALITY an objective moral system as yet undefined and governed by rules as yet undetailed whereby humans are subjected to punishment or given rewards as yet undefined 

THE ONLY POSSIBLE DEFINITION OF NIHILISM any system of thought beliefs or accountability that does not include both meaning and morality as necessarily existent and possibly all systems of belief whatever if there turns out to be no meaning as above defined.


This is just a rough draft and feel free to make corrections. Also sorry if I'm flooding you with messages I'm just trying to be as complete as possible in communicating my ideas. 

#201
zedvictor4
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@Tarik
Did I actually assert that "the mind supersedes reality"?

Or is this your own construct?
#202
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@secularmerlin
I still care about what I care about
Then what’s the point of this discussion if in the end you’re just gonna chalk it up to this, regardless of your inability to prove meaning without reward and/or punishment? I mean it would’ve saved us a whole lot of time if you started with this as your premise because your loyalty to your stubbornness would’ve been more apparent. If you want to do you then I probably can’t stop you but the questions as to why you do them still remains, it’s up to you if you’re gonna answer the call, I hope you do at some point have a nice day ✌🏾.
#203
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@zedvictor4
Axiom....I think therefore I am.
How else am I supposed to take this?

e.g.- I think I’m a flying eagle therefore I am a flying eagle.
#204
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@Tarik
You don’t need to know the “form” to know your being rewarded or punished, and how one goes about following the rules to receive each isn’t my argument, it’s just what YOU’RE concerned with.
Reward is meaningless if the target behavior is UNDEFINED.

Punishment is meaningless if the target misbehavior is UNDEFINED.

You can tell me all day and all night that your GOD will punish the wicked and reward the angelic.

But this information is MEANINGLESS to me if you can't tell me specifically WHAT THE HECK I'M SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT IT.
#205
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@Tarik
It’s fundamentally impossible to find meaning in something that’s inherently meaningless and that’s a fact.
Some scientists spend most of their lives sampling and cataloging elephant dung.

This gives their lives meaning.

I can't think of anything more meaningless (to me) than elephant dung.

SOME PEOPLE VALUE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T VALUE.
#206
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@secularmerlin
Actually it's super easy, barely an inconvenience.
Remember money?  Yeah, that thing you like?
#207
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@Tarik
considering size is limitless
Well, there is sort of a hard upper limit.

For example, if you made a horse big enough, it would collapse under its own weight and become "the planet formerly known as a horse".

If you kept making it bigger, eventually it would collapse into "the black-hole formerly known as planet horse".

And then it would very slowly evaporate as the cosmos approached zero kelvin.
#208
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@Tarik
I have to live in this universe whether meaning and morality as you define them exist or not right?
Not if you off yourself and get punished for it in the afterlife.
HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING,

If I murder innocent people, I will burn forever in an eternal fire pit.

However, the innocent people I kill will go straight to heaven and experience eternal bliss.

So, it's almost like I'm handing out free all expense paid trips to the best possible holiday destination in the universe.

And even though I will undoubtedly suffer a horrifying fate myself, I think it'd be worth it to bring eternal happiness to so many.

Shouldn't I sacrifice my own eternal happiness to bring eternal happiness to as many people as I possibly can?
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#209
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
regardless of your inability to prove meaning without reward and/or punishment?
I don't find punishment or reward meaningfull at all. Your conception of meaning is not meaningful to me. My life is not worth more to me if what you call meaning exists. I need you to understand that moving forward.
#210
zedvictor4
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@Tarik
I think therefore I am, as far as we are able to know, is our internal reality....How did I supersede this axiom.

And as far as we are able to know, eagles are, and they fly, and we are not flying eagles.....Though all of this information requires secondary processes to be able to reach a conclusion....The acquisition and manipulation of external data.