Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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@Tarik

IF objective meaning does exist and IF you cannot demonstrate it THEN you still cannot objectively prove your life is meaningful. 

IF being unable to prove objectively that your life has meaning makes having any given desire make no sense THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.

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@secularmerlin
THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.
That doesn’t logically follow but either way if your conceding that desire makes no sense regardless then that was my argument from the very beginning (I guess we’ve finally come full circle) and there’s really nothing more for me to say, I rest my case.
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@Tarik
THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.
That doesn’t logically follow
It does if you cannot demonstrate any objective meaning. If you examine  two out of six legs from my table as though the other four don't exist then sure it doesn't logically follow. But here is ALL of what I said. 

IF objective meaning does exist and IF you cannot demonstrate it THEN you still cannot objectively prove your life is meaningful. 

IF being unable to prove objectively that your life has meaning makes having any given desire make no sense THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.


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@secularmerlin
but either way if your conceding that desire makes no sense regardless then that was my argument from the very beginning (I guess we’ve finally come full circle) and there’s really nothing more for me to say, I rest my case.
So I guess I’m not the only one guilty of this

If you examine two out of six legs from my table as though the other four don't exist then sure it doesn't logically follow.
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@Tarik
I don't actually concede that it makes no sense. It makes perfect sense that if there are alive things that they would try to stay alive. It is what we expect from observing alive things. 

I would actually be much more surprised to see any particular type of lifeform survive to become a species if they did not "care about things". We are shaped by our environment to be what we are. The environment would seem not to have any particular goal but instead just to be mostly the product of mindless natural forces. 

That makes the most likely and sufficient answer to the question "why do we care" by virtue of being the only demonstrable observable cause is that we care because it is how we survive. 

What more of an answer are you looking for?

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@secularmerlin
I don't actually concede that it makes no sense.
This quote begs to differ.

THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.


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@Tarik
All the legs of my table if you please. 

IF objective meaning does exist and IF you cannot demonstrate it THEN you still cannot objectively prove your life is meaningful. 

IF being unable to prove objectively that your life has meaning makes having any given desire make no sense THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.


IF and ONLY IF. 

IF demonstrating some objective meaning is necessary in order for having a survival instinct to "make sense" and IF you cannot demonstrate some objective meaning THEN your survival instinct "makes no sense" EVEN IF there is objective meaning. 

Or in other words believing in an objective morality you cannot objectively prove does not solve the problem you seem to think we now share FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS CONVERSATION. 
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@secularmerlin
All those extra words just to basically say the same thing 🥱.
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@Tarik
All those extra words just to basically say the same thing 🥱.
Please explain your specific objection. Do the conclusions not logically follow the premises?
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@secularmerlin
There is no objection, you conceded, we’re good.
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@Tarik
There is no objection, you conceded, we’re good.
I've conceded that under your model there is no possible reason which is not silly to have a survival instinct. I've also conceded that we have them anyway and that so long as we do

IF you are alive and IF you care to continue doing so THEN you ought to engage in self care.

IF self care is worthwhile and IF some other organism contributes to caring for you THEN you ought to care for them right back as part of that self care in as much as no man (ant/zebra/wild dog/bee) is an island.

IF whether or not some person(s) contribute to your care is an unknown quantity (such as all humans who engage in a modern global economy) THEN all things being equal you should care for and about them to insure that care in every possible case.

This is equally true whether or not any objective morality exists.

I feel like at least one of us is missing some implication of the others argument. 
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@secularmerlin
is not silly to have a survival instinct
...No, you conceded and said

THEN having that desire makes no sense
The argument I’ve been making all along, I very well understand English don’t play games with me.

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@Tarik
So having a survival instinct is "silly" under your paradigm and using your definitions and would remain so even if there were objective meaning although we have agreed that there in fact is not.
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@secularmerlin
Why’d you ask me that?

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@Tarik
Why’d you ask me that?
It's just been a very long and strange ride. 
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Long yes but strange no, you’ve finally seen the light the moment you conceded and there’s nothing strange about that.
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@Tarik
My position and beliefs remain completely unchanged. 
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@secularmerlin
Then why’d you say

THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.
Although I don’t completely agree with this quote I do under the circumstances IF objective meaning doesn’t exist and considering I was arguing in favor of the nihilist position and nihilists don’t believe objective meaning exists that means as far as this discussion is concerned we’re in agreement.

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@Tarik
Firstly if nihilism is just the rejection of on particular type of claim then it is not a position in and of itself. Secondly I did warn you that even if I indulged your definitions my actual argument would not actually change.

You have constructed a small box in which, definitionally meaning cannot exist. You have not done this by showing that what I most generally refer to as meaning doesn't exist but simply by refusing to accept any definition of meaning whatever, including yours effectively since you A won't define it and B can't demonstrate it. 

The truth is I still find the idea of objective meaning self contradictory and you haven't shown how one can ever have meaning without some standard upon which we judge that meaning.

If you don't want to call humans caring about stuff meaning and you don't want to call humans caring for each other morality that is fine but whatever you call them they are enough. You haven't argued me out of caring and I don't take your "argument that nihilism is true" very seriously and not only because you don't actually believe it but also because it is a logically flawed idea to begin with. 

Nihilism is true is a nonsense statement if nihilism is just the rejection of an unfalsifiable claim. 

You know how I know? Because the same holds true for atheism. It isn't itself a claim, only  the rejection of an unfalsifiable claim so it nonsensical to say it is true or false.

We should be evaluating the claims they reject to see if those are true or false. 

IF you are alive and IF you care to continue doing so THEN you ought to engage in self care.

IF self care is worthwhile and IF some other organism contributes to caring for you THEN you ought to care for them right back as part of that self care in as much as no man (ant/zebra/wild dog/bee) is an island.

IF whether or not some person(s) contribute to your care is an unknown quantity (such as all humans who engage in a modern global economy) THEN all things being equal you should care for and about them to insure that care in every possible case.

This is equally true whether or not any objective morality exists.

This syllogism will still be true when you decide you are interested in having a conversation instead of stopping a conversation from getting too uncomfortable and confusing for you.
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@secularmerlin
Why are you even acknowledging it existing as an option? I’m not arguing in favor of it existing and neither are you so I’m not even gonna go there (which should be a sigh of relief for you since you don’t believe and all) for arguments sake. So in other words the “OR NOT” caveat to your syllogism is the only proposition I’m concerned with in regards to this discussion because it aligns with my argument.
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@Tarik
Any argument that we shouldn't care, whether meaning exists or not, is self defeating. If you shouldn't care then why are you arguing?

Also a should doesn't come from an is.

You should care.

Why? 

Because objective meaning exists.

This is a non sequitur. It doesn't actually logically follow. You haven't actually explained the link between objective meaning and caring. Just si we are clear the implied reverse is true.

You shouldn't care.

Why?

Because there is no objective meaning.

This does nothing to explain why I shouldn't care.

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@secularmerlin
Any argument that we shouldn't care, whether meaning exists or not, is self defeating.
Then why’d you make it smart guy?
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@Tarik
Then why’d you make it smart guy?
What are you talking about? Like seriously. 

IF you are alive and IF you care to continue doing so THEN you ought to engage in self care.

IF self care is worthwhile and IF some other organism contributes to caring for you THEN you ought to care for them right back as part of that self care in as much as no man (ant/zebra/wild dog/bee) is an island.

IF whether or not some person(s) contribute to your care is an unknown quantity (such as all humans who engage in a modern global economy) THEN all things being equal you should care for and about them to insure that care in every possible case.

This is equally true whether or not any objective morality exists.

The above is an argument for why we should care even if there is no larger intrinsic meaning. 




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@secularmerlin
What are you talking about? Like seriously. 
This argument

THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.

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@Tarik
THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.
This is the logical conclusion of YOUR argument. This is where your argument leads so if you don't agree you need to change your argument not mine.
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@secularmerlin
That was YOUR quote not mine.
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@Tarik
The problem is if you can’t objectively prove your life is meaningful then it makes no sense to have that desire.
IF objective meaning does exist and IF you cannot demonstrate it THEN you still cannot objectively prove your life is meaningful. 

IF being unable to prove objectively that your life has meaning makes having any given desire make no sense THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.
This is the whole post. Let's examine it together shall we?

Firstly YOUR argument. 

The problem is if you can’t objectively prove your life is meaningful then it makes no sense to have that desire.

If these are not your words or if you feel that they are incorrect please let me know.

Then my first premise and conclusion BASED on YOUR argument.

IF objective meaning does exist and IF you cannot demonstrate it THEN you still cannot objectively prove your life is meaningful. 

My second premise and conclusion BASED on my first premise and conclusion which are BASED on YOUR argument. 

IF being unable to prove objectively that your life has meaning makes having any given desire make no sense THEN having that desire makes no sense WHETHER OR NOT objective meaning exists.

This syllogism is true IF and ONLY IF we accept your initial argument. 

In other words in claiming that "if you can’t objectively prove your life is meaningful then it makes no sense to have that desire" you have essentially claimed that it makes no sense to have the desire REGARDLESS of whether or not any actual objective meaning exists.

My syllogism is based on YOUR  argument. It is an evaluation of YOUR logic. 
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@secularmerlin
conclusion BASED on YOUR argument.
That isn’t based on my argument because I never argued the “whether” proposition, I did however argue the “OR NOT” proposition.
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@Tarik
You cannot have one without the other. Every IF begs an IF NOT.
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@secularmerlin
But that doesn’t mean the conclusion is always the same which in this case YOU’RE saying it is I didn’t nor did I ever and lastly.

Then my first premise and conclusion BASED on YOUR argument.
Why do you need such a thing after I already provided you MY premise and conclusion?