Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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You ask this because whatever answer I give your gonna deem it as subjective (so predictable but I see right through it nice try though) so the objective route is to not give any advice.
Well of course it will be subjective. Any advice is by necessity subjective to some goal (whether explicit or implicit in the advice) I don't see why that would make any difference whatever actually. 
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@secularmerlin
Well of course it will be subjective.
Well in that case that’s why I won’t give any.
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@Tarik
Well of course it will be subjective.
Well in that case that’s why I won’t give any.
I don't understand why you are subjectively attaching so much importance to objectivity. 

Objectivity means having no preferences and without some preference, some foundational goals there is no reason to think of things as right or wrong at all. They just are or are not.
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@secularmerlin
I don't understand why you are subjectively attaching so much importance to objectivity. 
I’m not.

Objectivity means having no preferences and without some preference, some foundational goals there is no reason to think of things as right or wrong at all. They just are or are not.
You’re literally starting a circle at this point because that’s essentially what nihilism is.
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@Tarik
You’re literally starting a circle at this point because that’s essentially what nihilism is.
In order for something to be right or wrong you have to first say right or wrong in what way correct?
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@secularmerlin
Well nihilists don’t believe in right or wrong so that shouldn’t be an issue.
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@Tarik
Well nihilists don’t believe in right or wrong so that shouldn’t be an issue.
Well neither of us is a nihilist so it doesn't matter what nihilist's believe so please answer the question. If we are to say you did the right thing we must first know what you are trying to accomplish. The goal. True or false?
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@secularmerlin
Well neither of us is a nihilist so it doesn't matter
On the contrary it doesn’t matter what either of us are considering we’re arguing for sake of the discussion.

If we are to say you did the right thing we must first know what you are trying to accomplish. The goal. True or false?
True because it’s objectively proven that certain actions produce a certain result but that’s a separate narrative from saying it’s right to have a goal.
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@Tarik
right to have a goal.
This is silly. The goal is what makes it right or wrong. Without a goal there is no right or wrong. Otherwise what are we even talking about? 

You are essentially asking what goal does having a goal serve and the answer is literally every possible goal. Every goal is better served by holding it as a goal.
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@secularmerlin
Without a goal there is no right or wrong. Otherwise what are we even talking about? 
Exactly.

You are essentially asking what goal does having a goal serve and the answer is literally every possible goal. Every goal us better served by holding it as a goal.
But it doesn’t end there because I can take it further by asking a question based on that answer, what goal does every possible goal serve?
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@Tarik
what goal does every possible goal serve?
No goal fits these criteria that I am personally aware of. Do you intend to suggest one? To... argue for one?
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@secularmerlin
Well in that case maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this

You are essentially asking what goal does having a goal serve and the answer is literally every possible goal. Every goal us better served by holding it as a goal.
How am I asking this?

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@Tarik
Why is it right to have a goal is nonsense question. Nothing is right or wrong without a goal. If having a goal is not justification enough for having that goal then there is no justification possible. 
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@secularmerlin
Nothing is right or wrong without a goal.
Prove it.
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@Tarik
Nothing is right or wrong without a goal.
Prove it.
That isn't how this works. You think something can be right or wrong without a goal demonstrate it. I don't have to prove something doesn't exist to dismiss it.
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@secularmerlin
No sir, now that’s not how this works, don’t think your slick and can twist the narrative to suit you. Your claiming that right and wrong exists through goals and I’m saying prove it, that’s not the same as telling you to prove something doesn’t exist.

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@Tarik
Right or wrong without a goal would appear to exist in exactly the same way that alien abductions happen. In people's imagination only. If you want to prove it exists as more it is on you. I'm so sorry that I was not perfectly pedantic in my language in that post but by now if you don't know what I mean then you kinda don't seem to be paying attention. 
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@secularmerlin
Right or wrong without a goal would appear to exist in exactly the same way that alien abductions happen. In people's imagination only.
I could say the same within a goal as well.
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@Tarik
Except that we have already discussed exhaustively how a goal, like winning at chess or promoting wellbeing, create a right and a wrong.


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@secularmerlin
You’re conflating two separate narratives, remember when I said

True because it’s objectively proven that certain actions produce a certain result but that’s a separate narrative from saying it’s right to have a goal.
Just like how it’s a separate narrative from saying it’s right to create the game of chess.
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@Tarik
Well I'll tell you something. You can't say it is right to have a goal without a goal you are referencing. 

I mean you can but its nonsense. Itter tosh. Gove it a try and you will see.

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@Tarik
Just like how it’s a separate narrative from saying it’s right to create [and or MODIFY] the game of chess.

The game we commonly call "chess" has been played in some very strange variations historically.
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@Tarik
No sir, now that’s not how this works, don’t think your slick and can twist the narrative to suit you. Your claiming that right and wrong exists through goals and I’m saying prove it, that’s not the same as telling you to prove something doesn’t exist.
IT'S TAUTOLOGICAL.

(IFF) YOU HAVE AN EXPLICIT OR IMPLICIT GOAL THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE (THEN) ANY ACTION OR INACTION TAKEN TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL = GOOD (AND) ANY ACTION OR INACTION TAKEN TO DELAY OR PRECLUDE THE ACHIEVEMENT OF THAT EXPLICIT OR IMPLICIT GOAL = BAD

Asking if "the goal itself" is "good" or "bad" is a category error.
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@Tarik
You see the problem here is that you are making a logical fallacy - an appeal to the demonstration - I know, I know, it sounds stupid, but just like the fallacy fallacy it is an important part of our discussion. You see having a goal to go with a moral premise is an axiom. It is one you accept, I accept, everybody excepts, literally every single moral premise has a "hidden" goal or intention behind it. This is because whenever you make a moral statement you are appealing to some intention or theory of right and wrong, which you can only have if something is the "best" and something is the "worst" that something which is "best" is your goal.
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@Tarik
Asking if "the goal itself" is "good" or "bad" is a category error.

Instead of asking if some action or inaction is "good", it would be more logical to ask, "what is your goal"?

And if your answer is "I don't have a goal" then you simply don't know your own goal (it may be subconscious) or you may be purposefully obscuring your goal (intentions).

ACTION = GOAL

(IFF) YOU TAKE ACTION (THEN) YOU HAVE A GOAL
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@Theweakeredge
You see having a goal to go with a moral premise is an axiom. It is one you accept, I accept, everybody accepts, literally every single moral premise has a "hidden" goal or intention behind it. This is because whenever you make a moral statement you are appealing to some intention or theory of right and wrong, which you can only have if something is the "best" and something is the "worst" that something which is "best" is your goal.
Well stated.
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Mm, our DNA contains evolutionary mutations for surviving, such as cooperation 
I agree.

Some individuals have "more" "caring/cooperation" instinct and some individuals have "less".
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@Tarik
We care because we are DNA.
That’s simply not true, not everybody cares.
Some individuals have "more" "caring/cooperation" instinct and some individuals have "less".
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@3RU7AL
At the very least, everybody cares about themselves, and if you care about yourself, then you ought to care about others. Its that simple.
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@Theweakeredge
At the very least, everybody cares about themselves, and if you care about yourself, then you ought to care about others. Its that simple.
Some individuals stop caring for themselves and without interference from others, they die.

All living people who have a conscious (or subconscious) will to live also implicitly care about a minimum number of other living people who have a conscious (or subconscious) will to live.