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@secularmerlin
But didn’t you argue that if you agree to those rules with your opponent that whatever move you make that leads to winning is an objectively good move?
Our most basic axioms
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@Tarik
But didn’t you argue that if you agree to those rules with your opponent that whatever move you make that leads to winning is an objectively good move?
If you agree to the arbitrary rules then yes based on those rules you can make an objectively bad moves. You really seem to have a lot of trouble separating subjective from objective and understanding their interconnectivity.
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@secularmerlin
You really seem to have a lot of trouble separating subjective from objective and understanding their interconnectivity.
How so?
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@Tarik
Would you agree that objective things exist independently of any human mind?
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@secularmerlin
I feel like I know where you’re going with this but I’ll bite, yeah sure.
Then how can any belief be other than subjective? And if your beliefs are subjective then what is your issue with subjective beliefs?
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@secularmerlin
Because you can believe in something that exists independently of any human mind.
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@Tarik
The belief is not the thing.
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@secularmerlin
No, but what you believe in could be.
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@Tarik
Beliefs are dependent upon a mind and are therefore subjective even if they concern the subjective belief that something is objective.
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@secularmerlin
Well in that case is the belief that the earth is round subjective?
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@Tarik
The observable demonstrable fact that the earth is a rough spheroid is objective. It is also a cold sterile fact. That the earth is a rough spheroid does not in and of itself mean anything.
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@secularmerlin
That the earth is a rough spheroid does not in and of itself mean anything.
It means judging by that example alone that not all beliefs are subjective.
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@Tarik
It means judging by that example alone that not all beliefs are subjective.
The belief, as separate from the fact, is dependent on your mind and so is necessarily subjective.
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@secularmerlin
So your answer to this question
Well in that case is the belief that the earth is round subjective?
Is a yes?
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@Tarik
IF the belief is dependent on the mind THEN it is subjective.
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@secularmerlin
The “if” is a caveat so in what cases are beliefs not dependent on the mind?
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@Tarik
I know of no cases in which belief is independent of a mind. In fact that sounds nonsensical.
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@secularmerlin
Then why’d you say if?
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@Tarik
That is how fornal syllogisms are formed.
IF a THEN b.
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@secularmerlin
Why can’t you refrain your answers to a simple yes or no?
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@Tarik
Did you want me to be honest or decisive?
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@secularmerlin
How are you not honest and/or decisive by answering with a simple yes or no?
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@Tarik
You keep demanding complete certainty from me. I don't know how to tell you more plainly that humans don't seem capable of complete certainty.
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@secularmerlin
Well I’m sure you believe you’re certain of that statement, nonetheless that’s just not true and I’m not only talking broadly here, YOU specifically made definitive claims over the course of this discussion, so miss me with that.
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@Tarik
I did make my basic axiom clear did I not? Have you not been viewing my posts with that axiom in mind? Must I say the earth is a rough spheroid so long as the universe is real or can we just take the part about the universe as read? Must you be so pedantic?
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@secularmerlin
Have you not been viewing my posts with that axiom in mind?
How am I supposed to do that when you go against it by calling things observably demonstrable?
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@Tarik
observably demonstrable
observably demonstrable in as much as anything is. In a much as the universe is real. Some things are not observably demonstrable even if the universe is real.
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@secularmerlin
“Some things” aren’t the narrative the narrative was the shape of the earth which YOU called observably demonstrable.
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@Tarik
The shape of the earth can be observed. If our observations are real then the earth is a rough spheroid.
No objective meaning can be observed. No alien abductions can be observed, no big foot can be observed, no souls can be observed.
(As far as I know if you want to be pedantic) so even if our observations are real we have no logically reason to believe in any of them.
I have higher degrees of confidence in the existence of those things which are testable and demonstrable because anything that is not testable and demonstrable isn't even justifiable to believe in as part of an illusion.