The great atheist deception

Author: Soluminsanis
Religion
Philosophy

Posts

Total: 204
#151
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
Why do you need to prove objective morality?


Tarik the nihilist....Nope...Because you must have a purpose, or you wouldn't bother to keep arguing over how to label philosophical concepts.


And nihilism is just another label for just another philosophical concept....And humans variously regard and apply varying standards of cooperation and respect towards each other. There is no Earthbound set of moral standards, let alone a known universal standard.

And everything either does or does not have a pre-ordained purpose.....We don't actually have an answer to this one, but some people such as myself speculate, and some people speculate more vividly that others.....Nonetheless, in either case a pre-ordained moral standard is a secondary level of speculation.
And even if there is no pre-ordained universal purpose, the known existence of everything is significant enough in itself, and will still instil a sense of purpose in humanity.

So why might you find this less vivid set of data output so unreasonable?




#152
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Because you must have a purpose, or you wouldn't bother to keep arguing over how to label philosophical concepts.
I have a purpose because God gives me purpose.

And humans variously regard and apply varying standards of cooperation and respect towards each other.
Why if we can’t prove our value?

the known existence of everything is significant enough in itself, and will still instil a sense of purpose in humanity.
If our purpose is to simply exist then why do you care so much about external factors? Like love for example, you love your wife do you?

So why might you find this less vivid set of data output so unreasonable?
You pretty much summed up the answer in the question “vividness” if that’s lacking in the equation it’s fair to question if we’re dealing with data.

#153
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,613
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Tarik

Did God have a purpose for Elon Musk? He is worth $210 billion. Musk doesn’t claim to have any religious beliefs. In an interview with Rainn Wilson (Dwight from the US version of The Office) when asked if science and religion can coexist, Musk replied, “Probably not”. To the next question, “Do you pray?”, he answered, “I didn’t even pray when I almost died of malaria.”


#154
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@FLRW
God has a purpose for everybody.
#155
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
This point you brought up makes me think of. 
Did he have a purpose for L Ron Hubbard.
You could change the name ( Elon Musk ) in post to ( L Ron ) and swap the word billion with million.  




#156
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Soluminsanis
I'm sure it has already been pointed out to you but "if atheism is true" is a nonstarter since atheism is the rejection of a particular kind of claim rather than a claim in and of itself and any examination of whether or not "atheism is true" is generally also an attempt at a shifting of the burden of proof away fro the claim being made to the person or persons who reject the claim. 
#157
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
The concept of a GOD and it's assumed function and requirements, gives you a purpose....No one is arguing with that.....As I said people will find purpose in all sorts of activities. Nonetheless, your earthbound and humanly contrived activities. are no more or less valid than a surfers for example.

"Why?"....Because we are conditioned that way....But I'm sure that someone must value you, and hopefully some one values me too.....No GOD required.

I also love rhubarb crumble and custard....Yum Yum....Love is a label that we apply whimsically in response to all sorts of stuff.....Another discussion perhaps.

And you summed up, pretty well too.....Not seeing the wood for the tress, as it were......Focussing vividly on an unknowable religious ethos, and not recognising the known reality of the human condition.
#158
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
As I said people will find purpose in all sorts of activities. 
We clearly have different views on the word purpose because I view it as God’s plan for us, so if you take Him out the equation (theoretically speaking) it’s reasonable to believe the activities you engage in serves no purpose, it might bring you happiness but then you’ll have to prove our purpose is to be happy.

But I'm sure that someone must value you, and hopefully some one values me too
Yeah sure but how do you prove to someone that doesn’t that should be the case.

Love is a label that we apply whimsically in response to all sorts of stuff
But that wasn’t the narrative is it? I gave a specific example of love when I mentioned your wife, I sure hope that’s not on a whim.

Focussing vividly on an unknowable religious ethos
Vividness isn’t unknowable.

#159
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
If there is a GOD, then it's purpose would be it's purpose. Whereas your purpose is earthbound and inside your head. Imagining the purpose of an unknowable GOD, is just that.


Why bother to try and prove anything to someone that does not value you....Just ignore them.


As I stated. "love" is up for discussion......My respect and devotion for my wife and daughters, isn't challengeable......Such respect and devotion, and all associated functions and processes far exceeds the glib use of the label "love".


The word vivid has multiple definitions....So read you trusted dictionary.
#160
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Tarik
you’ll have to prove our purpose is to be happy.
Why would one need to prove one's stated purpose? If you ask what I'm doing at work I might detail all the mundane tasks I am performing and you might then ask "but why are you doing this?" And I might answer that my purpose in the activity is making money. Certainly we can follow the rabbit hole down to I don't know why humans use money but because of the economic systems involved I am forced to play along, in other words I don't really know,but my stated purpose still stands.

If I decide to dedicate my life to being happy then that is by definition my purpose even if I don't know why being happy feels good or why a particular thing (spouse, beautiful scenery, a painting etc) makes happy.
#161
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
That logic is flawed because it conflates general things with specific things and that difference is important for example all apples are fruits but not all fruits are apples, you catching my drift?
Please explain which statement you are referring to.
#162
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
The study has important implications for how we understand our moral decisions. They don’t arise out of some universal, ahistorical, hermetically sealed realm of pure reason; rather, they’re shaped by cultural norms. Hence, morals are subjective.
Well stated.

#163
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
And what don't I have an answer for?
Nihilism, I’m sure you don’t consider yourself a nihilist so under the assumption that there is no objective morality what makes your position most reasonable?
(IFF) nihilism = subjective morality (AND) (IFF) nihilism = unreasonable (THEN) morality is objective
#164
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Why bother to try and prove anything to someone that does not value you....Just ignore them.
That’s not the point.

Such respect and devotion, and all associated functions and processes far exceeds the glib use of the label "love".
Fine, if our purpose is to simply exist then why do you have respect and devotion for others?

The word vivid has multiple definitions....So read you trusted dictionary.
Yes, but it’s only ONE context that’s being discussed.
#165
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
Fine, if our purpose is to simply exist then why do you have respect and devotion for others?
Because  cooperation increases your chances of survival.
#166
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
If there is a GOD, then it's purpose would be it's purpose.
Why does GOD exist?

What is the ultimate goal?

Why does it need humans to worship it?
#167
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Also. if you value your own self, then you have to necessarily value others - because if you want to be valued, then you have to value others - it's a pretty simple concept I think.
#168
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
But I'm sure that someone must value you, and hopefully some one values me too
Yeah sure but how do you prove to someone that doesn’t that should be the case.
Great question.
#169
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Why does it need humans to worship it?
Great question, why does a supposedly perfect being need constant attention? Is it a toddler or a cat? Because the god of the bible reminds me of my cat, throwing a tantrum when she doesn't get head pats.

#170
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
Also. if you value your own self, then you have to necessarily value others - because if you want to be valued, then you have to value others - it's a pretty simple concept I think.
I agree.

You want to survive and you can't do it alone.
#171
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
It would be point enough for me.


Why?... Good question....Primarily because that is how we are pre-programmed, and also how such messages are usually enforced when we are children.


Yep..... A vivid imagination.....One that assumes to know a specific GOD, and also assumes to know what a specific GOD is thinking.



#172
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,923
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
If there is a GOD, then it's purpose would be it's purpose.
Zed, yo know this borders on Goopy  speak?   And similar to Zen-like Universe IS? Or more Zen to just say IS.

IS = eternally existent, finite, occupied Space Universe with bilateral creatures that have access to Metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts, that,

.....have ability to conceptually place themselves outside of a conceptual finite Universe, as if they were a God, with ability to hold and shape the conceptual Universe in their conceptual hands.

This alledged Atheist Deception' of what God is, needs to be clarified by identifying two of G catagory's of God/Universe, that, I done for some ten years now, in my Cosmic Trinary Oultine.

" U "niverse/" G 'od place in italics is specific the most all-inclusive,  wholistic comprehension of abstract conceptual viewpoint i.e. this labeling includes;

.....1] eternally existent, finite set of Metaphysical-1 spirit-1 }, mindintellect/concepts,

----conceptual line-of-demarcation-------------

.....2} eternally existent, Metaphysical-2 { macro-infinite non-occupied Space },  that, embraces surrounds the following,

............2a} eternally existent, finite, occupied Space Universe/God, that, include fermions, bosons,  recently discoverd hybrid of those two and and any collective set thereof,

....................3b] eternally existent, Metaphysical-3, contractive [ mass-attractive } Gravity,

....................4c} eternally existent, Metaphysical-4, repulsive { cosmological constant divergence } Dark Energy.

For those individual who actually seek the greatest truths, they need to start with the above, as presented, that, is the greatest whole  set, and that way no catagorial parts are left out i.e. no parts are not included in the following termology.
 
All is included in these two terms " U "niverse/" G "od in italics and the


#173
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
Why would one need to prove one's stated purpose? 
“because I view it as God’s plan for us, so if you take Him out the equation (theoretically speaking) it’s reasonable to believe the activities you engage in serves no purpose”
#174
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Tarik
Careful you are going to define purpose out of existence and I shall continue on my jolly way doing things for my own reasons quite happily. I would be very careful if I were you. If you cannot stand the idea of not having purpose and there is no purpose with no god(s) then you have a serious problem which isnot at all problematic for me or my fellow atheists. 
#175
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
It would be point enough for me.
But you’re not asking the question I am.

Primarily because that is how we are pre-programmed, and also how such messages are usually enforced when we are children.
 But you don’t have to believe in those messages, you chose that.

A vivid imagination
Which definition are you referring to that matches that context?
#176
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@3RU7AL
(IFF) BOOK = GOOD (AND) HEAVEN = GOOD (AND) BOOK = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEREFORE) HEAVEN = HEROIN
I was referring to this.
#177
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
So.
#178
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,081
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tarik
@ebuc
Mr Ebuc......Not that I ever understand, but you got me thinking.


So with reference to the idea of a universal GOD principle (Not the specific floaty about bloke, of Middle Eastern folklore).

The principle.... That is an ongoing, physical, universal process (material evolution), in which organic intelligence plays a vital role and therefore gives us, as a universal species, an inevitable, pre-ordained purpose.

I would, be contradicting this simple hypothesis,  if I didn't accept that the purpose of the GOD principle is also our purpose.....Which is the perpetuation of a universal sequence.

As such the purpose of the GOD principle is the re-initiation of the sequence....And the role of organic intelligence within that sequence is it to facilitate the re-establishment of the GOD principle.....GOD-Material Evolution-GOD...Etc. Etc. Etc.

And the development of other, less fragile Alternative  Intelligence's would seem to be the way forward...... Whether or not we will be along for the complete ride....Might or might not be a necessary consideration.


Nonetheless, despite the unlimited possibility of the universal sequence, there is still an unanswered magical, GODLESS beginning to consider.
#179
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Tarik
(IFF) BOOK = GOOD (AND) HEAVEN = GOOD (AND) BOOK = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEREFORE) HEAVEN = HEROIN
I was referring to this.
(IFF) GOOD = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) GOOD = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEN) HEROIN = GOOD
#180
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
Nonetheless, despite the unlimited possibility of the universal sequence, there is still an unanswered magical, GODLESS beginning to consider.
Really, even iff GOD is for-real-realzies, humans are incidental worms.

I'm not sure how anyone can even imagine that the MAGGNIFORENCE OF GAWD somehow magically makes human lives "meaningful".

It obviously emphasizes exactly how meaningless we are (in contrast).