Should we defund the police?

Author: Theweakeredge

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#211
Greyparrot
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@coal
Well, he does have one penalty:  He doesn't get to talk with me about something he actually wants to talk about.  
Well yeah... I blocked him a few weeks ago when he called me a liar. He can find his edification from someone else.
#212
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That being said, it is prohibitively complicated to adopt as a gay couple even in liberal cities.  Which is one of the greatest tragedies of our time.
I wonder if he chose that route because the surrogacy laws were less strict in California.
#213
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@Greyparrot
Well yeah... I blocked him a few weeks ago when he called me a liar. He can find his edification from someone else.
It doesn't really matter to me.  I just don't really see the point in talking to someone in his situation.  Although I am genuinely amused by the fact that I have a pretty good idea what his public school situation is like.  

One of my friends from high school is now a math teacher in northwest Texas, where the kind of attitude he is displaying here is not tolerated.  Very conservative area that kind of got stuck in the past.  


#214
Vader
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@Greyparrot
Well yeah... I blocked him a few weeks ago when he called me a liar. He can find his edification from someone else.
What did you expect? He's a recent 16 year old living in Texas. That's what the edgy teen prototype is. He won't get a clear view anywhere. West Texas and gangs are two things I don't see a correlation too
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#215
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@Vader
You said that the peak of the greeks was during the Draco codes... you are blatantly incorrect
#216
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@Theweakeredge
No I didn't. If you would take the time to read, it was when the Draco code was reformed to have reasonable laws that work for the people. That was peak. In society where there was no laws, it was no the peak of Greece. Please read the information I stated
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#217
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@Vader
Well... no - it was not the peak, in fact they were taken down for more Socratic laws later on - you know, the societal contract? You are just factually incorrect here- the Draco codes were not the peak, in fact they were a low for the greeks, please actually read.
#218
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@Theweakeredge
Read child. I did not say that DRACO CODE was peak. I say the reforms of DRACO to HELP the PEOPLE and PROTECT the PEOPLE were PEAK, in 429BC. The land where there was NO LAWS was NOT peak, from 1200BC-900BC

#219
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@Theweakeredge
Please do not call me factually incorrect, the peak of Greek society was 429BC and the country with no laws was 1200-900BC. I have said this and you refuse to address this point, but stick to your own narrative you are pushing that is simply inaccurate. You are making yourself look even more foolish by trying to educate a Greek on Ancient Greek history. Please stop.
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#220
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@Vader
. If you would take the time to read, it was when the Draco code was reformed to have reasonable laws that work for the people. That was peak. In society where there was no laws, it was no the peak of Greece. Please read the information I stated

 I say the reforms of DRACO to HELP the PEOPLE and PROTECT the PEOPLE were PEAK, in 429BC.
There is no difference - and as I have already substantiated - no it was not - the draco codes were infamously corrupt and cruel, I don't know where you are getting this - now afterwards there was a legal system, but it was not a policing system - there is a fundamental difference you seem to not consider
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#221
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@Vader
Laws and policing are two different things bucko - furthermore, you have continuously said that the reforms of draco were the "peak", however, that was also literally above the very minimum bar - as I said, the peak was whenever socrates argued for social contracts - and they began to use socratic law - which is what the legal system of today is based off of, however, policing and legal systems are not the same - can they be related? Sure - but the draco code, and the reforms of the draco code (moreso reforming the draco code - poor wording) established a minute legal system
#222
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@SupaDupa.

Anyone  from anywhere can be an expert on Ancient Greek society (Generally regarded as historians).....Being of Greek origin or in fact Greek doesn't necessarily make one an expert.

And we can all troll through data and come up with information and temporarily be pseudo experts on any subject.


What did the Greeks ever do for us.......Quite a lot.....As did the Egyptians, as did the Arabians as did the Romans etc.etc.....And here we are.

And if you defund the Police, what are you going to replace it with.....Martial Law I suppose.....Certainly as an interim measure.

Similar people, different uniforms.




#223
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For anyone interested, there are a couple links I think are pretty useful with regard to abolishing the police.

This is a very interesting essay that attempts to empirically justify that the police are not a necessity. What I like most about this essay is the fact that the author specifically strung together replacements for the police. This is by far the best piece arguing for police abolition.

This is also an interesting piece. It delves into the impact of adopting a police force, specifically comparing British counties before and after police were adopted. The implementation of sufficiently large police forces decreased rural crime by 19% and decreased London robberies by 40-46%. These decreasing effects also held true for violent and property crime. However, there was no impact on homicide. This suggests that conservative police forces may be better than pure policelessness.

This also delves into the impact of policelessness. It states that the abolition of police in Denmark resulted in a 10-fold increase in robbery almost instantly.
#224
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@Theweakeredge
There is clearly a different between Draco Law and post Draco Law, which was reformed law. Again I keep repeating myself yet you refuse to listen or take anything I say to heart despite being much more knowledgeable than what you seem to know.

Furthermore, Greece has law enforcement during the peak of it's time and help people accountable for it's illegal action. You are taking ideas of pre historic Greece and using it to imply that this norm was all of Greece, which I'm telling you is not true at all. Please understand this before trying to have an argument with someone.
#225
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@zedvictor4
I agree with the statement. I know being Greek does not make me an expert, but I know a lot more just by living in Greece for 1/2 a year and being Greek and studying my culture in school than others would. I'm calling him out because he is trying to school someone who has much more knowledge on Greek history than he does, which I find unironically funny
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#226
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@Vader
My point is that the Draco Laws, and the reforms that came with them  - weren't about policing... they were about legal matters and how the citizens viewed society in general  - that is distinct from policing, and as such are themselves red herring to the conversation - you've asserted that there was policing with them - however fail to make a causal argument regarding policing and the "peak" you call the reformations of the draco laws, which is untrue, again, the "peak" (if you could say that there are objective peaks in societies) was around the time with the social construct first argued for - let's say that the peak of Greece was during the time where there was police, you have failed to introduce an argument that says that the peak is because of the policing, furthermore you haven't even gotten that far yet - so...
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#227
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@Vader
Yet you apparently aten't aware of a social construct... how hypocritical
#228
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@Theweakeredge
From the 5th century BC, when the foundations of greatness and prosperity had been laid down for the people of Athens, police authorities were established with their mission being similar to that of modern police authorities. The main concerns of this first ancient police were order, demeanor, hygiene, protection of morals, Market police surveillance, supervision of construction, surveillance of foreigners, the prevention of public accidents, etc. Particularly, there were diverse police authorities set up by the state to protect its welfare and citizens. All these separate bodies were monitored and regulated by the Athenian supreme court, the Areopagus.
#229
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@Theweakeredge
Quoted by me

it was when the Draco code was reformed to have reasonable laws that work for the people. That was peak. 
#216
Draco Code was reformed around 500BC

Peak of Greece was 492BC

As a result, the peak of Greece had law enforcement similar to modern policing 
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#230
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@Vader
So the reform happened - after the peak - and you want me to seriously consider you whenever you are saying that policeing caused the peak? Furthermore - having laws does not equate to having a police force - again - colonial America - you can have laws and not a police force - its not that difficult of a concept - please demonstrate that the police force is the reason that the peak happened - show me the causal link, please
#231
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Draco's laws were known for their cruelty and their bias towards the rich landowners as opposed to those who found themselves owing money. His series of drastic punishments (the origin of the term 'draconian') for a variety of crimes were not actually in force for long and certainly did not succeed in their aim.
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#232
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@Vader
So now... you are saying that policing was unknown until the fifth century, and then that peak was at 493... which would be the very end of the fifth century, IF the police were the cause would the peak not be towards the beginning of the fifth century?
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#233
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@Vader
 I'm calling him out because he is trying to school someone who has much more knowledge on Greek history than he does, which I find unironically funny
Yet your sources an article sourcing only one book with no citations is your source that - at the end of the period that was said that policing was introduced - again according to this source - was whenever the "peak" according to you - was - that's... just a tad noncausal and not linked bud,you don't seem to be making any actually convincing arguments

74 days later

#234
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The only thing that needs defunding and reform are the people. We wouldn't need police otherwise.  The only reason police exist is because of asshole people.



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#235
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@sadolite
and when those people become assholes themselves, then we just need to reform the people who teach 'em. 
#236
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@Theweakeredge
Which comprises more assholes? The police or people who are not police? All  assholes in the police without exception come from the people who are not police. I am an asshole, I was taught to be one. I will challenge all authority at every turn and every level most especially Federal govt authority. I will challenge anything and everything that doesn't serve my best interests. If it doesn't I will be as uncooperative unruly and undermining as I can be to destroy anything that doesn't serve my best interests. That is the definition of asshole in todays world. If I don't tow your line, I am an asshole.
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#237
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@sadolite
Yup, that's bein' an asshole - but that's not all what being an asshole is. That's not the only way to be an asshole. Deliberately redefining what asshole means so as to defend a concept like the police kinda proves my point too. The real danger of an asshole, is an asshole who thinks they aren't one, or thinks that that assholery is justified. That's what I see a lot of the police as. 
#238
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, an asshole that doesn't admit they are an asshole is dangerous. I am most definitely an asshole, aint no shortage of people who tell me that, none the less they all eventually come beggin me to fix their shit or barrow money.
#239
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@sadolite
Is a dangerous asshole one that shits barrowloads?...LOL.

307 days later

#240
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https://www.debateart.com/debates/3387-gun-control-is-bad my new debate on gun control, I am waiting for a contender.