Economic Marxists are Clowns.

Author: Greyparrot
libtard
AOC

Posts

Total: 69
#31
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
You seem to be under this mad delusion that Democracy and Authoritarianism are mutually exclusive. 
they are. the definition of Authoritarianism is: "the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom."

if the majority of people voted for it, then it isn't restricting personal freedom. Because people want that. Whatever the policy is is the personal choice of the people. 

People elected Authoritarianism in Venezuela through Democracy easily. So can America.
no. as long as the election is fair and the majority support it, it isn't authoritarianism. It is the will of the people. 

For Christ's sake man why do you think there is even an authoritarian metric on the 2-axis political spectrum?
because authoritarianism is not a "left" or "right" wing metric. 

You cannot seriously believe you cannot elect an authoritative government through Democracy.
of course you can. But if the policies the government are pursuing is what the people want, then it isn't authoritarianism. If the people vote for a government who then does something other than what the people want, then that would be. But things like universal health care are quite popular. But to you, you would see it as authoritarianism even though it is the will of the people. 

At least I cannot believe you are that stupid as you seem to have the capability of stringing along mostly coherent sentences.
coming from someone who has no idea what the terms authoritarianism or Marxism mean but insists on throwing the terms around like he does, your comment on my intelligence means literally nothing. 
Topic's author
#32
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
because authoritarianism is not a "left" or "right" wing metric. 
Who ever said it was? There are plenty of authoritarians in both camps and very few libertarians in both parties.

Fact is, it's normal to promote authoritarianism, so there is no reason to be ashamed of it whether you are on the right or left if you care about virtue signaling.

There is no way in hell I could mistake you for a left-leaning libertarian.

Not when you constantly talk about how Washington DC needs more authority to keep the rich from exploiting the poor.

You are an authoritarian. Embrace it.
Topic's author
#33
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Have you ever taken a political compass test? Have you ever scored anything in the bottom half of the graph... ever?

Ever?

no. as long as the election is fair and the majority support it, it isn't authoritarianism. It is the will of the people. 
So what? The Authority Maduro now wields is no different than the authority he would have wielded without elections. The Power he holds is still the same regardless of the origins of that Authoritative power. The people in Venezuela suffer the exact same loss of liberties regardless of how it came about.

You are confusing an authoritative government that restricts freedom with a dictatorship. These 2 things are not even remotely equivalent. History is full of benevolent dictators that allow for plenty of personal freedoms. You just don't know your history (as usual) 


People can and often do vote for Authoritative policies that restrict their freedoms, be it with health care and high taxes, and censorship on the left, or the patriot act and stop and frisk laws on the right.

You are absolutely no Left-libertarian, no matter how much you would like to pretend.
None of your positions and nothing you have said on this forum matches up with a left-libertarian on the political compass.
#34
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
You are an authoritarian. Embrace it.
no. I unlike you, believe in democracy and in the government serving it's purpose. It exists to serve the people. If the right got it's way, all it would do is get out of the way so the rich can do whatever they want. 

So what? The Authority Maduro now wields is no different than the authority he would have wielded without elections.
ok. so in your world the police and violent gangsters are the same thing? They both enforce their will with violence. Having power does mean it is authoritarian. Using force does not make you a violent thug. what you are using it for and who it is sanctioned by determines whether it is right or wrong. Whether it is the free will of the people, or authoritarianism. 

To you, a government doing what the people want them to do is authoritarianism. But that is not what that word means.

You are confusing an authoritative government that restricts freedom with a dictatorship. 
how so? If the people want a specific thing done, then it isn't a restriction of free will. The people, using their free will, decided they wanted that. You are confusing the will of the people with, honestly i don't know what. Ridiculous fear mongering I suppose. 

People can and often do vote for Authoritative policies that restrict their freedoms, be it with health care and high taxes, and censorship on the left, or the patriot act and stop and frisk laws on the right.
lol this is a joke. You think taxes are authoritarian? By your definition laws against jaywalking are authoritarian. Literally every law that has ever or will ever exist in authoritarian in your mind. You really don't understand that word at all. 

You are absolutely no Left-libertarian, no matter how much you would like to pretend.
when have I ever pretended I am a libertarian?
Topic's author
#35
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff

But that is not what that word means.

Have you ever taken a political compass test? Have you ever scored anything in the bottom half of the graph... ever?

Ever?

If not then you advocate authoritarianism.

I know you want to create your own definition, but that dichotomy between libertarians and authoritarians has been around far longer than you have been on this site.


 You think taxes are authoritarian?
Of course. You don't have the freedom to not pay taxes, do you?

By your definition laws against jaywalking are authoritarian.
Of course, all laws enforced by the government are authoritarian. You don't have the freedom to walk wherever you want, do you?
#36
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
If not then you advocate authoritarianism.
you keep repeating this, but you ignore my response. Governance does not equal authoritarianism. If the government is doing what the people what, that is democracy, not authoritarianism. 

I know you want to create your own definition, but that dichotomy between libertarians and authoritarians has been around far longer than you have been on this site.
I don't know how else to respond to you other than to repeat that you are using that word wrong. 

 You think taxes are authoritarian?
Of course. You don't have the freedom to not pay taxes, do you?
Technically I do. I could choose not to do that and there would be consequences. But that means that every politican on the planet, and virtually all of the people in the world are authoritarian, including you. I have seen you advocate for government spending, which means you support authoritarianism (by your ridiculous definition)

Of course, all laws enforced by the government are authoritarian. You don't have the freedom to walk wherever you want, do you?
thank you for pointing out the ridiculousness of your definition. If literally everything we do as a society is authoritarian, then that word is completely useless. Because authoritarian and society mean the same thing. So by your definition, the word authoritarian is meaningless. So why the hell would anyone use a definition of a word that means nothing?
Topic's author
#37
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
 I have seen you advocate for government spending, which means you support authoritarianism (by your ridiculous definition)

Correct. There are nuances between total freedom (anarchy)
And total enslavement (no freedom to choose anything)

In a normal world where 2 normal people discuss things,
if you are considered an authoritarian, then you advocate for more restrictions than allowances for personal freedoms.
If you are considered a libertarian, then you advocate for more freedoms than restrictions on freedoms.

Have you ever taken a political spectrum test? Are you not even the slightest bit curious where you would fall on the authoritarian scale assuming you advocate for any sort of freedom from government control.

Personally, I am not really curious because your dogma puts you squarely in the upper part of the graph, assuming you are honest in your beliefs.

#38
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
if you are considered an authoritarian, then you advocate for more restrictions than allowances for personal freedoms.
If you are considered a libertarian, then you advocate for more freedoms than restrictions on freedoms.
we're just going in circles because you are ignoring what I am saying. If the government is doing what the people want, that isn't authoritarianism. That is the free choice of the people.

You think anything the government does is authoritarianism even if it is what the people want. If that is what you think the word means, then it is extremely stupid and pointless word because literally every government and virtually every person on the planet is authoritarian. And if everyone is authoritarian, then the word is meaningless. So we are just going to keep going in circles because your definition of the world is everything and everyone in the world. 

Topic's author
#39
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5

This is my score Pie like you didn't know lol.
Topic's author
#40
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
So how did you score? it takes literally 5 minutes to do the test.
#41
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
So how did you score? it takes literally 5 minutes to do the test.
lol, yet again you completely ignore everything I say. So I will repeat it in the hopes that some day you will be able to stay on track and not change the subject constantly. 

You think anything the government does is authoritarianism even if it is what the people want. If that is what you think the word means, then it is extremely stupid and pointless word because literally every government and virtually every person on the planet is authoritarian. And if everyone is authoritarian, then the word is meaningless. So we are just going to keep going in circles because your definition of the world is everything and everyone in the world. 
Topic's author
#42
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
So how did you score? it takes literally 5 minutes to do the test.
Topic's author
#43
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
You think anything the government does is authoritarianism even if it is what the people want.

Nah, I think you are afraid of what the test results would be. I don't blame you for refusing to take the test. An alcoholic shouldn't take a breathalyzer either.
#44
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
So how did you score? it takes literally 5 minutes to do the test.
if you have no intention of actually discussing this then there is no point continuing. So to summarize, you have no idea what the words authoritarian or marxist actually mean. when this is pointed out to you, you just change the subject. I will take your repeated attempts to change the subject as you giving in since you are unable to formulate a response. 

Topic's author
#45
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
if you have no intention of actually taking the spectrum test, then there is no point continuing.

I fully agree. Enjoy the bliss.
#46
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
if you have no intention of actually taking the spectrum test, then there is no point continuing.
I fully agree. Enjoy the bliss.
lol, I shoot down your argument, you change the subject. But somehow I'm the one in ignorance? It's pretty obvious that since you don't know what these words mean (ie you are ignorant) that would much better describe you. 
Topic's author
#47
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
 Please note that this isn’t a survey, and these aren’t questions. They’re propositions. To question the logic of individual ones that irritate you is to miss the point. Some propositions are extreme, and some are moderate. That’s how we can show you whether you lean towards extremism or moderation on the Compass. Your responses should not be overthought. Some of them are intentionally vague. Their purpose is to trigger reactions in the mind, measuring feelings and prejudices rather than detailed opinions on policy.

Topic's author
#48
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
If you really are that afraid, I can take the test for you and just extrapolate answers from posts you have made on Dart. It won't take long.
#49
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
They’re propositions. To question the logic of individual ones that irritate you is to miss the point. Some propositions are extreme, and some are moderate. 
You are still invalidating the term. If every single person on the face of the planet is authoritarian, then the word is useless. If it defines everyone and all things, then it isn't a useful term. And that is how you are choosing to use it. 

Your responses should not be overthought. Some of them are intentionally vague. Their purpose is to trigger reactions in the mind, measuring feelings and prejudices rather than detailed opinions on policy.
we have a fundamental disagreement on the underlying terminology. You think everything and everyone is authoritarian. We should just be grading on how authoritarian they are. But that is a stupid and meaningless scale. 
Topic's author
#50
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
You think everything and everyone is authoritarian.

It's a scale. Take the test and you can see it's a sliding scale.
#51
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Can you shut up for 5 minutes and take the goddamn test. It’s not rocket science.
#52
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
Can you shut up for 5 minutes and take the goddamn test. It’s not rocket science.
why? I don't give a shit about the stupid test. My point is that greyparrot doesn't understand what he is talking about. He has no idea what marxism actually is, but then makes a thread about "economic marxists". some silly test has nothing to do with his profound misunderstanding of words. 
#53
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
why? I don't give a shit about the stupid test. My point is that greyparrot doesn't understand what he is talking about. He has no idea what marxism actually is, but then makes a thread about "economic marxists". some silly test has nothing to do with his profound misunderstanding of words. 
Cause we want to see where you lie on the political compass lol. I don’t know why that’s a bad thing. We’re simply curious.
#54
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
Cause we want to see where you lie on the political compass lol. I don’t know why that’s a bad thing. We’re simply curious.
I don't care about the test or the results of it. It is irrelevant to the topic he made. If you want to make a topic about taking that test and the results, go for it. If you want to have a discussion about "economic marxism" then that would be what this thread is for, supposedly. 
Topic's author
#55
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
He is afraid of where he will score on the authoritarian scale. He might even hit the max score being a totalitarian, lol.
#56
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
He is afraid of where he will score on the authoritarian scale. He might even hit the max score being a totalitarian, lol.
the test is irrelevant. You clearly don't want to actually talk about the topic because you don't know what a marxist actually is. So you distract and try to make the topic about me instead. 

Topic's author
#57
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
I know a Marxist isn't libertarian. You seem to think it is.

Maybe Marxism is libertarian in the idea that the state can be abolished, but in practice all around the world, the state is never actually abolished as it leads to anarchy.

1) Marx described communists as those who best understood the class struggle. They would unify the proletariat, lead it in the revolution, and take control of the government.

2) During what Marx called the "socialist phase" of the revolution, the new proletarian government would confiscate all capitalist private property like factories, mines, farms, and other businesses. The government would then operate these enterprises for the benefit of the workers.

3) When the proletariat finally controlled economic production, Marx declared that all classes would disappear and class struggles would end. In this "communist phase," there would no longer be a need for a government.

Of course, a communist revolution did occur in Russia in 1917. Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the new Soviet Union, concentrated all power in the Communist Party. After Lenin, Joseph Stalin used violence and starvation to end private ownership of agricultural land, causing the death of millions of peasants. The Communist Party became a privileged ruling class, relying on force to stay permanently in control.

The fundamental flaw with Marxism is the assumption that poor people without power do not inherently have aspirations of greed and power. Lenin and Stalin turned into the very people they replaced but just more incompetent at running a national economy.
#58
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
I don't care about the test or the results of it. It is irrelevant to the topic he made. If you want to make a topic about taking that test and the results, go for it. If you want to have a discussion about "economic marxism" then that would be what this thread is for, supposedly. 
So if I make a separate threat for political compass results you’d do it right?
#59
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I know a Marxist isn't libertarian. You seem to think it is.
Marxism means that the people, as a whole, own the means of production. It is entirely possible for that to also be libertarian.
#60
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
So if I make a separate threat for political compass results you’d do it right?
I don't care about the stupid test no matter what you do. If you want to talk about it, make a thread for it. I wouldn't post in it though.