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Post 157 - "The bible says he didn't show when he promised to show.  The Jews complained about this no show, they didn't complain because he did show, now did they, you silly little man."

Yes it does.  Can you show me evidence that he did show before those hearing the promise from his own mouth had passed away? That will be a no. 
Can you show me one single eye witness report from the time testifying that that seen Jesus returned from heaven on a cloud. That will be no.

I keep telling you. You have nothing .
 
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@Timid8967

Good you don't feel victimised..

Well I am pleased that has finally sunk in. 



 


It was YOU  that said  that " you wish that I would be More easily agreeable with the bible". Why?  What business is it of yours.? What difference would that make to YOUR belief? This is why It means something to me. 
Mountain out of a molehill.

So you want to forget you said that . I see. But I won't let you forgot that until you have answered my questions raised by your own comment.#25  Why is so important to you that that you "WISH" that my thoughts, theories and opinions were more agreeable with the bible that you say that you have only read once and don't believe?   


 Take Mark 13 for instance. You use it to say that Jesus lied - yet when challenged on it - you go boo hoo stop being stupid.  I never said that.

I have seen a few Pastors and Priests buckle and "boo hoo" and go awaol when they have been shown to be absolutely thick as shite  dunces and bible ignorant when it comes to the subject they should know better than I.

Indeed , there was one Pastor and Chaplain here recently that seems to have left the forum altogether, No reason given, but I can only guess that it was because his bible ignorance was exposed often and on a regular basis.
And yet that is exactly what you did.  Took your baseball and just got annoyed. 
I don't remember getting annoyed. I remember it being the opposite way around.  Or do I rememebr anything to do with a baseball bat. You seem very concerned about this Pastor and Chaplain that was always bragging out his impressive CV and qualifications. Would you like to see it?  I'll dig it our for you when I get a chance.

You know, that the most interesting thing about this Pastor/ Chaplain, Tradesecret  was that he honestly believed  that "words were just words and couldn't do anything". #45  Tradesecret.  He even said the same about the bible! .#3  Tradesecret.  I am sure that with you not believing the bible would agree with him . But that aside, seriously, can you believe that a man of the cloth saying "words are just words and can't do anything"? 

Well,   what could I do other than show him what the bible actually says about the power of words, yes! again, I had to correct this dunce of a braindead Pastor/Chaplain that the "lord" himself disagreed with him.  Such as Proverbs 18: 21  and there was Roman's 1:16 very powerful I thought,what do you think?  >>

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek". <<<See that. The bible say words AND the gospels are "Powerful".  Matthew 4:4 "“‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”.  But the Reverend Tradesecret with all of his qualifications, just simply ignored what the BIBLE ITSELF and GOD! has to say on the matter of the power of words.   

And his stance on God appears to be completely opposite to your own belief or non belief about god, he says #15 "Most of the world just happens to be right about God because for them god is right there". but we know that counts for nothing doesn't it.  As you say, "so what"? 
 
I asked him once how he found time to do all this things he had listed that he does . I was very impressed. And you will be too. Have look Starting here #20  & here  #91 and especially here #25 . if you don't want to open the links I have this for you. He is a very interesting and EXTREAMLY busy man , is the Reverend. maybe that is why he has taken some time off. here you are:

Lets see: 

Starting with his education  and without being asked or any prompting  he freely told me and  this  forum :

"I studied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the Orthodox Church". #91

"Study the original languages, translate them to English",  #25 

"I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation".#20 

" my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. "#20

"I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications". #20

which all appear to entitled him to 

" charge universities when they request me to lecture to them [ their students]". #20 

 

But we are not finished .   he  has another string to his  bow does the Reverend?  he is also a fully qualified and practicing lawyer too!!!!

 #20 "I am a lawyer".  And indirectly you issue some good advice to us when you tell us this "  I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police".   

" I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case" . #20 


AND on top of all this he  committed a serious offence in the eyes of god, I think.Matthew 6:4.   Yes he went bragging about his charity work; 

" I  devote a significant amount of my resources in trying to prevent abortions from happening. I also devote a significant amount of resources to programs which enable people to adopt children. I also devote a significant amount of my resources towards helping people who are left in homeless situations and are expected to be looked after by the government and its welfare programs.  
Iprovide resources to my local church as well who have significant means of assisting people in impoverished places around the world and locally.  

I have responsibilities for things and people I have been put in place with and are connected to".  
#64  and on top of this he runs a farm too.






I am puzzled as to why you would think I would believe the bible. It is a book, much like many books in the world.


 Indeed, this is the attitude the Reverend and Pastor Tradesecret had towards his holy scriptures. So at least you both have that in common.


  It is full of myths and legends.

 Yep. And you appear to know it so well after just reading it "only once".



It is not meant to believer or disbelieved.

I see. So what do you believe it was meant for considering it  has been preached for thousands of years in every western school and church and Chapele.


It is meant to be read as understood by its authors. 

  That is interesting.  and how do you know that. are you saying that priests and vicars and pastors and chaplains do not understand it? 

 If I read a textbook on a subject in science, it might be a question of believing it after reading it and understanding its arguments. The Bible is a whole lot of random authors telling a story - but not one we have to believe or not believe.  

 Is it. I see.


If only you were original. Barbara Thearing or whatever her name is seems to have read your posts.

WHAT A COINICIDENCE!!!!!  . I mentioned this author to the bible ignorant Pastor and Chaplain here calling himself Tradesecret., as he is Australian too!!!  Well,so he told us.

Yes I have read some of the work of the Australian historian, theologian, and Biblical exegete specialising in the origins of the early Christian Church. Fascinating stuff, I found. But believable ? I don't know. I still have some of her work knocking around somewhere.  She is qualified to speak on such matter, though, just like the Pastor and Chaplain Tradesecret that I mentioned above,  he too was qualified to "minister " and "lecture" on matters biblical. But it turned out that he knew absolutely fk all about his subject. But got paid all the same. That is fraudulent , if your were ever to you ask me.
You mentioned a couple of posts ago that you thought Jesus did not die but survived the crucifixion and lived for several decades later.  That is classic Barbara Theiring.  I have wikapedia as well as most people on this forum. 

 I see. But I didn't mention Theiring, you did.  And yes, like you said, believe or not believe. Who's to say she's wrong or right. She seems a lot better qualified that the Reverend Pastor tradesecret.  But that is just my own opinion. I do wonder where he went. no he has been brought to mind. I didn't notice the bible ignorant prick had even gone until the Brother mentioned it.


She is as daft as most of the fundamentalists in her blind faith to prove she is correct.  

Well each to their own I say.

We all have a different way of looking at these scriptures and other theological literature. Take yourself, you read it and simply don't believe the bible and dismissed it.And fair play I say at least you gave it a go...   pga2.0 read it and it has caused him to believe it in a different way to others ..  Where - as I believe it but not in the way it has come down to us and has been preached, taught and " tutored" on for millennia. 

I like reasoned arguments - which is why I find you amusing.

 Nice. I am pleased I haven't offended you in any way.  




I never said I believed the bible.

 I know. Quite the opposite. You have told us now on may occasions that you do not believe the bible. 


  It is myth and legend.

 Indeed. In part.  



Fundamentalists don't like to use reason or logic. 

 I am not a fundamentalist. I simply believe that there is (some) historicity to the scriptures.



Theiring - doesn't use logic either - she is like you - gross speculation masquerading as dogmatic truth.

 
 No. I have made it clear - and you keep ignoring it - that I claim nothing I say is true or provable. <<<, the that sink in. 

Just on this thread alone I must have reminded you three times - now four -  . I cannot prove the beliefs, opinions, ideas or theories that I have about the Jesus story.
And what Theiring does or doesn't do, has no baring on my own thoughts or opinions on the Jesus story. You are barking tree there princess. What I believe I glean from the unreliable ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures.THEMSELVES!

Is it a coincidence that both of you deny the same? 

 And many others appear to have come to similar conclusions. But that is their "bunny"  to argue about and defend isn't it?  Not mine.
 



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@Stephen
Why do keep harping on about Tradesecret?  Are you drawing a presumptious conclusion based on the fact that I mentioned Theiring?  Oh yes and the fact I might be or he might be Australian.  There must be only two or three people in Australia and we all have two heads and eat raw goannas. 

For a  matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts - which are on  balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased  to be mistaken for him or her.  Yet, despite your compliment, I am unable to accept such an accolade.  Yet I see he ripped many a hole in your sorry arse on many occasion. 

He or she is clearly a theist - and Zed makes the point that he is a dedicated one at that. Apparently he believes in god everyday of the week and not just sundays.  

I on the other hand - do not make such a claim. I have indicated where I sit. And others on this site can make their own judgments.  

You are the one continue to find reasons - yes go looking for them - rather than answer and address the questions put to you. I am waiting - I wonder what your response will be - "I don't recall seeing any answers" " you never asked me any questions". " I have answered everything you asked".  

Oh and PGA2.0 still has your number. 
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@Stephen
I can't decide whether to laugh or just keep on pouring the fire on your silly arse. 

You have this brain which is so twisted you just can't see the tree for the woods.   

I came on this forum intending to give heaps to the determined to the "prove everyone else wrong Christians" but you just take the cake.  

I love it - you are this dumb arsed atheist who pretends to know the bible better than Christians do - and although it seems you are quite fluent with bible verses - your understanding is just "dumb arsed".  I love it. 

"Oh you you've got my number".  Oh dear.  It's 69.  Or perhaps its 666 or 15 or 23 or something else. But hey - you 've got it. 

What other theologian apart from Theiring holds that view about Jesus still being alive?  - Dan Brown do not count - because he ain't no theologian.  He wrote some very funny books - but he ain't no theologian.   Tom Hanks on the other hand - yeah I could keep on watching him. 

Perhaps you think I am the Brother too? Or perhaps PGA2.0?  Or perhaps Benjamin? Or perhaps Ethang5? I noticed you liked to keep them two together.  

Thanks Stephen, just when I thought everyone in this world had become too serious - you just brighten up my day.  
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Why do keep harping on about Tradesecret? 

Well he is a perfect example  of the braindead and bible ignorant clowns that I often come across in this field. Of one that claims to be"qualified" not to mention "an authority" on all things biblical.   

Are you drawing a presumptious conclusion based on the fact that I mentioned Theiring?

Not at all. It is that when YOU  mentioned the theologian and Biblical exegete specialising Barbara Theiring, I though immediately Australia! because she is Australian, you see. And then I  remembered that is where that pompous prick the Reverend  Pastor Tradesecret told us he comes from, who you had mentioned and asked about earlier in this thread. . The coincidence didn't hit me right away.  I never did ask the the bible ignorant idiot pompous ponce if he had met or known her. I wish had now.


Oh yes and the fact I might be or he might be Australian. 

 Are you?


There must be only two or three people in Australia and we all have two heads and eat raw goannas. 

 So you are Australian too then.  Do you have two heads or just lots of faces? Or many hats to wear on any given day?


For a  matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts - which are on  balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased  to be mistaken for him or her. .......

Perhaps you think I am........ Ethang5? I noticed you liked to keep them two together.  
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIVE THIS COINCIDENCE I CAN PROMISE YOU;!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tradesecret: "Ethang5is a good friend of mine.  I have know him for a significant period of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me.  If I could be more like him, I would". #76  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5359-a-fallen-fine-tuned-universe
HOW ABOUT THAT THEN FOR A COINCIDNCE.  that^^^^^^^^^^ is exactly what Tradesecret said about his vile buddy ethang5.  

That mask is sure slipping now, princess. isn't it? 



Yet, despite your compliment, I am unable to accept such an accolade.  Yet I see he ripped many a hole in your sorry arse on many occasion. 

 Not that I remember. Still,I am here and he isn't, is he? 
It must be all that bullshit work-load and charity work and tutoring and lecturing and farm work and court cases and other lawyer work he has to handle and a family too. If he hadn't been such a complete and utter  braindead wanker of a bible ignorant Reverend , I could have admired him.


He or she is clearly a theist - and Zed makes the point that he is a dedicated one at that. Apparently he believes in god everyday of the week and not just sundays.  

Well you would have thought so. But he knew hardly anything of these scriptures. And him being a man of the cloth too. He even bragged about his charity work when his god tells him he shouldn't. See here>>  

“So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honoured by men". Matthew 6:2-4 .  I mean, hadn't this bible fraud remembered the bible story of the widows mite? 

""Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else. you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.Mathew 6:1.marvellous, here is god telling him to be quiet concerning his charity and he goes a computer and shouts about it all over the World Wide Web!



I on the other hand - do not make such a claim. I have indicated where I sit. And others on this site can make their own judgments.  

 You have and they can, if they are bothered . And its good that you have indicated where "you sit". You have said that you have read the bible once and don't believe it. That couldn't be more straightforward could it? You are a non believer of the bible. You do seem little unsure about where you stand on god to me though. But never mind, that is just me.

 
You are the one continue to find reasons - yes go looking for them - rather than answer and address the questions put to you.

What reasons? Reasons for what?  I don't really have to answer anything do I?   Seriously, I don't do I.? You see I question the claims made in the scripture . I am not the one who wrote the text I am not the author. 


I am waiting - I wonder what your response will be - "I don't recall seeing any answers" " you never asked me any questions". " I have answered everything you asked".  

I can't answer what I haven't been asked. I must have forgotten what it was you asked with me being so tied up explaining to you who the Reverend jumped up prick, and bible ignorant Pastor Tradedesecret is.   What ever he was teaching all those students at all those Universities one can only wonder. And getting paid TOO!!!


Oh and PGA2.0 still has your number. 

I don't think so. But I got yours , princess.


Thanks Stephen, just when I thought everyone in this world had become too serious - you just brighten up my day. 

And you are very welcome. dimtim
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@Stephen
Well all I can say is you are a FREAKIN Genius!  


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@Stephen
Post 157 - "The bible says he didn't show when he promised to show.  The Jews complained about this no show, they didn't complain because he did show, now did they, you silly little man."

Yes it does. 
You are answering your own words from Post 157, and your underlined is confusing. What are you trying to say? 

Can you show me evidence that he did show before those hearing the promise from his own mouth had passed away? That will be a no.
I can show you other Scripture that infers as much.

You are trying to suggest that there are written records from that time that have survived the corridor of time, attesting to some of his disciples surviving the fall of Jerusalem. Ireneaus, one church father, mentions that John was alive, as I think others do too since they borrow from his writings. His writings are unclear on whether Ireneaus was speaking of Nero's persecution or the time of Domitian. That last point has been driven home by people like Kenneth Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell. Now, have you read the church fathers or Gentry on this subject? 

The John of Revelation places himself at the beginning time of the tribulation. Jesus said of His disciple John,

Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”

We know from Matthew 16:28 that some of the disciples were included in "some of those" who would still be alive. We know from the same account by Luke and Mark that "some" also included some of the crowd that heard Jesus say these words. For instance, Mark 8:34 says,

"And He summoned the crowd together with His disciples," 

While Matthew 16:24 says,

"Then Jesus said to His disciples..."

And Luke 9:18 says,

"And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him,..."

John suggests/infers that he would be alive when the Lord returned. What is it to them if Jesus wants John to remain alive until He comes?

Therefore this account went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”
 
Can you show me one single eye witness report from the time testifying that that seen Jesus returned from heaven on a cloud. That will be no.
From that time, I have given you Josephus's account. He recorded the one man saying "The Son is coming" over and over. Josephus, who witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem said this: 

"[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities."1 
1. Josephus The Wars of the Jews 6.5.3.

"Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”2
 2. Tacitus The Histories 5.13.

"Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.”3 
3. Pseudo-Hegesippus 44.

But concerning the coming, I do not believe it was a physical coming, but they would see or understand His coming. You mention without stop, "every eye will see Him" in your posts. Does "every eye" mean every single eye or every eye concerning those in Israel at that time? And does it mean the eyes of understanding or literal eyes? IOW's are we speaking of a literal coming or a spiritual coming? Revelation 1:7 combines two verses of OT Scripture, and it also uses metaphorical terms. Combining two verses is a way the Hebrews used parallelism (i.e., every eye will see the Son of Man - Daniel 7:13, paralleled or coupled with those who pierced Him - Zechariah 12:10). Matthew 24:30 can also be seen as a spiritual coming as in Daniel 7:13-14, a passage the Jews of the day would have been aware of, especially since Jesus referred to Daniel in the Olivet Discource, also contains a heavenly scene in which Jesus is seen in the glory of the Father. That is the mental picture the Jews would be aware of in those 1st-century days. 

Matthew 24:30-31 (NASB)
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then [1] all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [2] they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a [3] great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His [a]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

[1]  All the tribes of the earth (land). All the tribes of the land are disbanded after AD 70. Josephus describes the great captivity that took place. As well as Zechariah, Jesus said it would be the nation of Israel (i.e., the twelve tribes) who would mourn.  

[2] The Son of Man comes in glory before the throne of God in heaven and is given the glory He shared with God before the incarnation.  

[ The Son of Man Presented ] “I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

In other words, the Son came into the presence of the Father in heaven, for clouds represent the presence of God. It also represents judgment. Jesus said He would come in His Father's glory. How did the Father come in judgment of a nation?

[ Message to Egypt ] The pronouncement concerning Egypt: Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

[3]  What did trumpets mean to OT Israel? The great last trumpet blast symbolizes the resurrection of the dead rising in Christ. The last feast in the OT is the feast of trumpets symbolizing the end of the OT feasts, for they have now (AD 70) all found their fulfillment in Christ. 

I keep telling you. You have nothing .
Nope, it is you who has nothing. 

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@PGA2.0
I see.

You still cannot produce one single eyewitness to any of the catastrophes that were supposed to accompany the ghostly second coming in AD 66.

Well come back when you can.

"Butthe day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens willdisappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed byfire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laidbare".
2Peter 3:8-10
  


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You do realize that biblically - this leads to parents getting away with abuse? With never being questioned? Dogma and indoctrination? No - it should NEVER be any sort of legal recommendation to honour your father and your mother - also - let's interpret this charitably, what about gay couples? What about single couples? What about polyamory couples (and don't even try to argue that the bible is against polyamory, it isn't.)
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@Stephen
You still cannot produce one single eyewitness to any of the catastrophes that were supposed to accompany the ghostly second coming in AD 66.
Josephus is one, and a pretty good one at that.  

Well come back when you can.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare".
2Peter 3:8-10
Apocalyptic language. Do you understand the metaphoric nature of such language? Their whole system of worship, everything they knew, and their economy revolved around the temple and Old Covenant Law, would be shaken. The elements of the old covenant would be destroyed by judgment, denoted by fire, if you understand the OT references to fire. Fire means judgment and cleansing

The whole epistle to the Hebrews, from start to finish, is a contrast in covenants. The two are compared, and the New Covenant is better in every way.  

Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion
18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words, which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not [g]cope with the command, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, [i]much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let’s [j]show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Mount Sinai was where the Old Covenant was initiated and represented the Old Covenant God made with Israel. Mount Zion represents the New Covenant God, in Yeshua/Jesus (God with us), made with the New Israel of God. 
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@Timid8967
You do realize that biblically - this leads to parents getting away with abuse? With never being questioned? Dogma and indoctrination? No - it should NEVER be any sort of legal recommendation to honour your father and your mother - also - let's interpret this charitably, what about gay couples? What about single couples? What about polyamory couples (and don't even try to argue that the bible is against polyamory, it isn't.)
Nope, a godly OT parent would not abuse their children, neither would the godly NT parent. Jesus' warning about the penalty of those who harm little children is severe. God has put our parents as guardians over us until we grow up. There is an obligation there to practice godly virtues. That does not mean harming one's children but disciplining them so that they don't stray from God by training them in the way they should go. 

We are all accountable to God for our actions upon this earth. Jesus has paid for our sins and the Holy Spirit, through the Word, leads us in the way we should go. 
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Josephus is one, and a pretty good one at that

 Nope. 


>>>>>    #2
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@Stephen
Josephus is one, and a pretty good one at that

 Nope. 


>>>>>    #2
Are you denying Josephus witnessed the destruction of the city and temple by the Romans?
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Are you denying Josephus witnessed the destruction of the city and temple by the Romans?

Nope and you know I am not,  so stop being so ridiculous. . You have said before "Josephus describes it in much detail".#26  <<< this is of course simply  bare faced lie. So lets not go over that again or I will block you.


I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal  with friends,  had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically. 

You see THE BIBLE CLEARLY states:  Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."  Acts 1:11.  That will be physically.

AND DON'T FORGET THAT >>>>>   "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."

Yet not a single "eye witness" stopped to think to record this miraculous and momentous event; not even the one that "pierced him"?  Strange do you not think that these writers wrote many things down about the Christ when he was walking around telling people to take up their beds, curing only a few lepers, and making wine for his friends to get down their necks, but we have not a single eyewitness account of this miracle of miracles and Jesus and his army of angels coming on or out of the clouds, not one.

You must do better PGA 2.0. Even your new found friend doesn't agree with you (he just doesn't want to agree with me, that's Christian bias for you)  and neither do the other half of your outfit in Preterism.



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Are you denying Josephus witnessed the destruction of the city and temple by the Romans?

Nope and you know I am not,  so stop being so ridiculous. . You have said before "Josephus describes it in much detail".#26  <<< this is of course simply  bare faced lie. So lets not go over that again or I will block you.
Posts 32 and 33 detail what Josephus wrote in greater detail yet scratch the surface.

Incidentally, the description of the talents speaks of the judgment of the Son of Man as mentioned in Post 33:

"The SON Is Coming!"(24)
(v:vi:3)
3. …The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent,(25) and were carried two furlongs(26) and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:"(27) so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow…

Remember, the Levitical Law prescribed stoning for adultery. Jerusalem was likened to a harlot and whore of Babylon in Revelation and also in the OT. The seventh of the Ten Commandments says, “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14).

Remember the prescribed penalty?

Stoning. 

Remember God likened those in Jerusalem to an adulterer and like Sodom in the OT?

Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: The committing of adultery and walking in deceit; And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, And her inhabitants like Gomorrah.

And their dead bodies will lie on the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The Lord was crucified in Jerusalem. The price for adultery was stoning. Israel had made a marriage covenant with the biblical God and was continually unfaithful throughout the OT. Thus, the stoning of the "City of God" and the flaming stones to purify it. Fire speaks of wrath as well as cleansing. God, in judgment, was stoning Judah for her marital unfaithfulness.

because they acted foolishly in Israel, and committed adultery with their neighbors’ wives, and falsely spoke words in My name which I did not command them. I am He who knows, and a witness,” declares the Lord.’”

So I will judge you as women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.

For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. So they have committed adultery with their idols, and even made their sons, whom they bore to Me, pass through the fire to them as food.
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I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal  with friends,  had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically. 
I refuted your claim that Jesus' body saw decay (numerous times), and you seem to think Josephus had a stake in confirming the biblical narrative, although he does in many ways.

You see THE BIBLE CLEARLY states:  Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."  Acts 1:11.  That will be physically.

AND DON'T FORGET THAT >>>>>   "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."
Concerning Acts and Revelation 1:7, does "the same manner or way" apply to all, to every eye, or just those in Galilee? 

I have already gone through several times the imagery and symbolism of Jesus being taken up in a cloud (representing God's glory and presence).
 
Yet not a single "eye witness" stopped to think to record this miraculous and momentous event; not even the one that "pierced him"? 
The "one" who pierced Him was the nation of Israel. That is disclosed by Scripture. They were the ones who said, "Let His blood be on our hands," and cried out for Him to be crucified. They witnessed the judgment both Jesus, John the Baptist, and the apostles warned against. They witnessed the coming of the Son's judgment on them.  

Strange do you not think that these writers wrote many things down about the Christ when he was walking around telling people to take up their beds, curing only a few lepers, and making wine for his friends to get down their necks, but we have not a single eyewitness account of this miracle of miracles and Jesus and his army of angels coming on or out of the clouds, not one.
How many times must I explain this? God is warning Israel up to the judgment. The Bible does not deal with events after the judgment. History leaves us with those details in some cases. We hear from Josephus and other historians what took place. Peter and Paul were put to death before Jerusalem fell, so was James. The Romans scattered the nation to the "four corners of the earth."

Secondly, how do you witness something spiritual in nature? God is not a person that you can physically see Him. Jesus came in the glory of the Father. You know that, yet you refuse to consider what that meant to these 1st-century people. 

You must do better PGA 2.0. Even your new found friend doesn't agree with you (he just doesn't want to agree with me, that's Christian bias for you)  and neither do the other half of your outfit in Preterism.
I'm doing just fine, Stephen. What other half of "my outfit in Preterism are you referring to, partial-Preterists? I already said I do not believe that position is biblically justified. And I don't blame him for not agreeing with you. Your argument is to state the same thing over and over without any exegesis done on your part. You refuse to engage in the countless questions I have asked you that require you to justify what you believe. 
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@Timid8967


YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE IN POST #210: "If you were to say that Jesus and the Father and the Spirit are together the Trinity that makes sense.  Or that The Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that makes sense. But i have never heard anyone say Jesus is the Father."

Barring the FACT that you are vacant of your biography page, where we take the notion that you are too embarrassed to completely fill it out for some reason, where TRADESECRET was too embarrassed to do the same as well.

In addressing your quote above, you fail to realize that when we have three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.  However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!  GET IT?

Here, let me cut to the chase to enlighten you, okay?  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:9). Now, do you want to call Jesus a LIAR when He admits that He is the Father? Huh? NO? I didn't think so!

.




#258
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What is it with you and Freak Face?  

Show me were the terms of joining this forum require me to give any information about myself? 

In respect of the Trinity - I am ignorant.  Thanks for revealing just how ignorant I am.  




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I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal  with friends,  had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically. 
you seem to think Josephus had a stake in confirming the biblical narrative, although he does in many ways.

 Nope. Stop being so ridiculous.  I am saying the complete opposite.   Flavius Josephus had NOTHING to say on the matter at all, did he. AND you are simply ignoring the PHYSICAL. 
Every eye will see him and he will return the way he went.


"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn
  because of him." So shall it be! Amen.  <<<<< If this was meant only spiritually  what were the supposed to be "looking " at.


"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky?
 This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
  will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." 

Yes good question isn't it, why were they "looking" skyward? 
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  Thanks for revealing just how ignorant I am.  

And you are more than welcome, dimtim
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Ah FreakFace, are you still alive,? I thought you would have crawled back into your little hole by now.  Still, just to be clear, it was the Brother - not you who revealed my ignorance.  


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@Timid8967
 it was the Brother - not you who revealed my ignorance.  

So someone else has noticed then.  
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@Timid8967

Timid8967,

YOUR RUNAWAY QUOTE FROM YOURSELF WITHIN THIS FORUM: "Show me were the terms of joining this forum require me to give any information about myself? "

Barring your misuse of "where," to your "were," in your query above, it is normal practice that when a biography is given to you in any forum, is that you use it to tell others about yourself, especially in a Religion forum about any religious beliefs you may have or the lack thereof.  When a member leaves their bio vacant, it is assumed that you have something to hide, or the fact that you are embarrassed about something that you don't want to mention for to be possibility of being made fun of, understood?  Basically, it gives Creedence to you as wanting to be a member of this prestigious forum, but not quite as yet because of the lack of a biography. Get it?  Sure you do.

It's uncanny in how you remind me so much of the total Biblical fool Tradesecret who changed from being a male, to a woman, and then unknown, especially with your specific syntactical sentence structuring and in not having a biography.

.



 
#264
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@Stephen
I showed you that Flavius Josephus makes no mention that a stinking and rotting corpse came back to life physically , and physically shared a meal  with friends,  had his physical wounds poked and prodded physically and then physically went up into heaven only to come down again on a cloud, physically. 
you seem to think Josephus had a stake in confirming the biblical narrative, although he does in many ways.

 Nope. Stop being so ridiculous.  I am saying the complete opposite.   Flavius Josephus had NOTHING to say on the matter at all, did he. AND you are simply ignoring the PHYSICAL. 
Every eye will see him and he will return the way he went.
But he did have all kinds of things to say regarding biblical prophecy. He did not support Jesus as Messiah, but he certainly wrote about Him, and he wrote about what was prophesied in the NT in startlingly confirming terms, seemingly unbeknownst to him. 

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn
  because of him." So shall it be! Amen.  <<<<< If this was meant only spiritually  what were the supposed to be "looking " at.
"Look" does not have to mean physical sight. Look, I'm making a point. 

Definition of look (Entry 2 of 2) the act of looking
b: GLANCE
2a: the expression of the countenance
b: physical appearance especially : attractive physical appearance —usually used in plural
c: a combination of design features giving a unified appearance a new look in women's fashions
3: the state or form in which something appears

I speak of definitions 2c and 3. 

Not only this, many translations use the word "Behold," not "look," to make the point that it is not physical sighting being spoken of. 

NASB - Behold.
KJV - Behold.
ESV - Behold. 

As for every eye, does that mean every single eye, or does it mean in regards to a specific group, or is it used in a figurative sense to include the whole of OT Israel? The tribes of the land speak of the twelve tribes of Israel. Did every person pierce Him? No, yet God attributes that piercing to OT Israel. They were the ones who handed Him over to the Romans when Pilate gave them the option. Was every OT Israelite there when Jesus was pierced? Nope. So, "those who pierced Him" places the blame on Israel as a nation even though not everyone handed Him over to be pierced. 

So, you want to take this dogmatically literally. That is not possible. You have to understand that "those who pierced Him" were first of all the Romans, and second, attributed to the nation of Israel, who God repeatedly warned of coming judgment once they filled up the full measure of their sins by causing the crucifixion of His Son. 

Many people have understood His coming in Revelation 1:7 as His judgment on Israel. The whole of Revelation speaks of this judgment to ISRAEL. Jesus is coming to avenge the blood of all the saints (and His own blood) shed on the land since the forefathers' time.

If you want to go on those who looked at Him when He was pierced, that was not everyone but a small representation --> OT Israel.

John 19:36-37 (NASB)
36 For these things took place so that the Scripture would be fulfilled: “Not a bone of Him shall be [a]broken.” 37 And again another Scripture says, “They will look at Him whom they pierced.”

Those looking on Him were mainly 1st-century Jews. They were responsible for His piercing.

And what were these Jews to see Him doing? They were to see Him coming in judgment of Israel. That is what they were going to see or witness - the judgment taking place.

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky?
 This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
  will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." 

Yes good question isn't it, why were they "looking" skyward? 
The Ascension
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, 11 and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

Men of Galilee - who were they? That was a specific group of people. Were there women and children there? How did they see Him go into heaven? They saw Him lifted into the cloud presence of God. The clouds surrounded Him. (So, the presence of God was with Him and that is how He would return, in the presence and glory of the Father). Are these every eye of Revelation 1:7? Are they with His angels where He repaired every person for their deeds? Did the trumpet sound? Did a voice of the archangel speak? What is common to all these accounts of His return? It is the cloud cover or presence of God. That is how they would see/understand His return.


Matthew 16:27 - "come in the glory of His Father with His angels." How was that? How did the Fathter come in glory in the OT?
Matthew 24:30 - "see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Coming in power and great glory - the glory of the Father.
Matthew 26:64 - "at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Clouds speak of judgment.
Mark 13:26 - "they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory." 
Mark 14:62 - "see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Acts 1:9 - "a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - "we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air," They would be in God's presence.
Revelation 1:7 - "He is coming with the clouds." 

Until you can tell me how God was manifest in glory in the OT your argument is mute and moot (having no practical relevence. 


#265
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@BrotherDThomas
Have you ever looked to see how many people don't have bios? 

I am sure they will be pleased to see you think they are all hiding something. 


#266
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@Timid8967


Timid8967,

YOUR SCARDY CAT AND NOT TAKING THIS FORUM SERIOUSLY QUOTE: "Have you ever looked to see how many people don't have bios? "

H-E-L-L-O, that is not the point!  The point is in having a biography in such a prestigious forum, where if you don't, you are nothing but a bystander to serious discussion where you will always be a "wannabe," get it? Obviously not!  

Let me know if you need help in actually filling out a bio, because if you don't have one, then continue to be a half-ass member.

.


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meow.
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#268
Stephen
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It's uncanny in how you remind me so much of the total Biblical fool Tradesecret who changed from being a male, to a woman, and then unknown, especially with your specific syntactical sentence structuring and in not having a biography.


 You are not on your own there , Brother.  Dimtim is almost a clone of the Reverend chaplain Tradesecret in his use of language, isn't he?    Here is just one of a few dimtims quotes that so remind of the fraud Reverend Tradesecret:


#243Fora  matter of interest, after reading some of Tradesecret's posts- which are on  balance, ok, I would be happy, no pleased to be mistaken for him or her.  Yet, despite your compliment, Iam unable to accept such an accolade.  Yet I see he ripped manya hole in your sorry arse on many occasion. 

Tradesecret: "Ethang5is a good friend of mine.  I have know him for a significantperiod of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me.  If I could be more like him, I would". #76      https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5359-a-fallen-fine-tuned-universe



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#269
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but he certainly wrote about Him,

 I keep telling you. I have read all of the available works of Josephus.  He mention nothing of a dead man rising back to life in 30 AD and being present at the fall of Jerusalem in AD 66.  And you haven't proven that he was either.


"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn
  because of him." So shall it be! Amen.  <<<<< If this was meant only spiritually  what were the supposed to be "looking " at.
"Look" does not have to mean physical sight. Look, I'm making a point. 

You are barrel scraping .   " LOOK" is clearly an  instruction .  "Eye"  is physical  it is not the minds "eye". " look and see" are physical.  You really are struggling.  You are doing exactly what I know all theist to do when stumped by your own scriptures , YOU begin to write that which was never written in the scripture.. 

And YOU claim to know in the 21century  what those that actually walked and talked with Jesus in the 1st century , didn't know themselves.. 

#270
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@Timid8967


Timid8967
YOUR SORROWFUL QUOTE RELATIVE TO MY DISTINGUISHED POST #266: "Meow."

Huh? Thats it?  Its too bad that you missed the ever so blatantly Bible ignorant ethang5 when he was here, because he too when shown to be fool relative to his being a pseudo-christian came up with the same child like responses!  Unfortunately for ethang5, he was easily run out of this esteemed forum because of his outright Bible stupidity and ignorance, and subsequent to his never ending bans, he has failed to return to save what face he had left.  The irony and comedy is that you want to be like him? ARE YOU KIDDING?! SURELY YOU JEST!

I checked your biography, STILL NOTHING but vacant space, just like your posts.  
 

Poor ethang5 and Tradesecret are still healing from my continuous Bible slapping them Silly®️ along with many other members of this forum doing the same, and that is why we haven't seen them return.  Praise Jesus' revenge upon this ungodly duo!



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