The Bible’s Most Cruel Lie

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Matthew7:7-8
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

 100 verses preaching the importance of payer; 

“the parents believe healing comes from God and that they never expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her and summoned others to do the same”.A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/07/couple-sentenced-daughter-prayer-death

December 14 2019.
Church attempts resurrection of a dead two year old child, through Prayer
“We have a precedent” said Pastor Bill, “Jesus raised the dead”.
He said “there was no time limit on how much longer the prayers and singing would continue, but added that the child remained at the county coroner's office”.

Interesting that Jesus also commanded any one that followed him to:
“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give”. Matthew 10:7-8 .
They appear to have done everything by the book too:

“'Since that night, and at the continued request of the Heiligenthal family, Bethel Church has hosted prayer and worship gatherings which consist of singing and prayer,' the church said in a statement”.

Interesting it is that the bible informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
The baby’s funeral was eventually held December22.
What happened here ? “Ye of little faith”or the wrong faith?

It appears that the only thing “raised” during this whole sad sorry saga was $62,000 (“unforeseen expenses”don’t you know) via a GoFundMe page. I can hear Pastor Bill sermonising Acts 2:45 as I write.

Members of the Followers of Christ Church whose members rely on prayer and had prayed for their sick newborn baby instead of taking her to the hospital are charged with murder. “The infant died just hours after she was born”. This couple was expecting twins, one had already died at birth and they prayed to god and Jesus that the other would survive. It didn’t.
“Dale and Shannon HIckman, were convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to six years in prison for the death of their newborn infant.”

In all of three cases (and many more) every single religious grieving parent was denied what they asked for in their payers.

WTF happened!!?

Was it because these grieving faithful parents“babbled far too much” ?Matthew 6:7

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Matthew7:7-8
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Ask what? Anything? That is what the OP would have you believe. Check the chapter in Matthew to get the context.

Cases of supposed believers asking and not receiving are even in the Bible.

Jas 4:3 - When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
Jas 4:4 - You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

WTF happened!!?
Nothing. People found out that God was not their Butler. And others, pissed off that God wouldn't be their genie, call the Bible a cruel lie. 

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These poor desperate parents had  asked for the life of their babies. Their only motive was LIFE! Jesus said : "I am the resurrection and the life" 


  They hadn't asked for the mortgage to be paid off. They sought help and didn't find it. They knocked on god’s door and it didn’t open,he ignored them all and remained as silent as the graves that their children were buried in. 

John14:13-14  "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".

What a complete and utter cruel thing to promise?


But this wouldn't have been the first time that god had remained silent when it came to such matters.  This vile god even ignored the prayer of desperation from his own son as he too begged and pleaded through prayer for his own life.  

Who can forget the pleadings of a terrified Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane? So terrified in fact that it caused him to suffer a sever bout of  hematidrosis  as he begged and pleaded in desperation and prayed not to be sacrificed.

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@Stephen
Wow! Stephen thanks for that amazing post.  I guess I have got it all wrong and the bible is a crock of garbage and God is a myth. Ok. You are so persuasive. 


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@Tradesecret
Stephen thanks for that amazing post

 It is isn't it!  We have a qualified man of god, a Pastor no less, (just like you!) reminding us off  the precedent set by Jesus himself. #1


Well now Reverend, you could try and explain to us  why these sad grieving souls prayers weren't answered instead of sarcasm?

Take the case of Pastor Bill and  his  attempt to raise the  child from the dead through faith and prayer. Why wasn't his and the prayers of all of his congregation able to raise the child back to life?  Especially in the light of Jesus clearly tells us : 

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".John14:13-14 

And the bible clearly  informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
Why would it tell us that if prayer is as pointless as it has been shown to be in all of those three sad cases above.#1

I found it interesting too that the only thing that this Pastor and his church managed to  "raise" was the $63,000 that came on the backs of these unfortunate dead children and their grieving parents.   Is it only a coincidence that this seems to underscore what  I wrote in relation to this practice of priests and pastors on your own thread here>> #42





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@Stephen
Stephen thanks for that amazing post

 It is isn't it!  We have a qualified man of god, a Pastor no less, (just like you!) reminding us off  the precedent set by Jesus himself. #1


Well now Reverend, you could try and explain to us  why these sad grieving souls prayers weren't answered instead of sarcasm?

Take the case of Pastor Bill and  his  attempt to raise the  child from the dead through faith and prayer. Why wasn't his and the prayers of all of his congregation able to raise the child back to life?  Especially in the light of Jesus clearly tells us : 

"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".John14:13-14 

And the bible clearly  informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
Why would it tell us that if prayer is as pointless as it has been shown to be in all of those three sad cases above.#1

I found it interesting too that the only thing that this Pastor and his church managed to  "raise" was the $63,000 that came on the backs of these unfortunate dead children and their grieving parents.   Is it only a coincidence that this seems to underscore what  I wrote in relation to this practice of priests and pastors on your own thread here>> #42


Well Stevie boy , that is the question isn't? If they were in my congregation this would never have happened.  Why not you ask. And that of course is a great question. 

Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context.  Secondly we teach our congregation to have respect for God - he is not someone who you can simply put on a dancing string. Thirdly, we teach our congregation that God answers our prayers with a yes or a no or a maybe. Sometimes God says yes and sometimes he says no. We cannot demand God do anything - why not? Because he is God - not us. 

Fourthly, I would never raise a go fund me page for any of my congregation - what a nonsensical thing to do. 

If our congregations' members are sick - we tell them to go the doctor. The fact is - we have 4 medical doctors in our congregation and several para medics. We take medical issues very seriously. Yes, we pray - but this never means we don't let them go to doctors - or have medical advice. or medical attention. 

In any event - we don't believe John 14 teaches what you are suggesting. There are numerous other ways to understand it - and the fact that some don't is hardly an argument against the Scriptures - it really a message for more understanding. 

It is of course a tragedy the story you have provided. And yet we see stories like that every day in life - not simply in churches unfortunately but in civil life  - in atheistic homes where people refuse to go to the doctor out of pride or ignorance.  Education is a good goal - unfortunately not all families are educated well - especially in public schools.  At least churches provide a network where people can see how children are doing. 


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@Stephen
Oh and by the way I am not a reverend. 


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Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context. 

I see so its all to do with these poor grieving parents, the  faithful praying worshipers and the qualified Pastor with an impressive CV (just like you Reverend!) not getting the context.  well it would be wouldn't it? What else could it be?  So are you going to supply for us the correct context of the many that could be applied in this case as you claim at your quote [A]  below? 




Secondly we teach our congregation to have respect for God - he is not someone who you can simply put on a dancing string.

He is also someone that cannot be trusted to keep his word either, Reverend. And let me point out that in all these cases it appears that these sad grieving parents, and the congregation and the qualified Pastor, all had the greatest respect for Jesus, indeed  Pastor Bill shows great respect when he speaks of the precedent that Jesus himself set and  for others to follow.  And didn't Jesus give his disciples the power to raise the dead?


"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give".Matthew 10:8 



Thirdly, we teach our congregation that God answers our prayers with a yes or a no or a maybe. Sometimes God says yes and sometimes he says no. We cannot demand God do anything - why not? Because he is God - not us.

 I see and in all these case he decided on "no".  Do you have an explanation for that, Reverend? 


Fourthly, I would never raise a go fund me page for any of my congregation - what a nonsensical thing to do. 
Deary me.  Are you telling us that raising money for the needy and desperate is unchristian, when there are countless examples of the scriptures telling us to give freely to the needy and the desperate and the poor?


If our congregations' members are sick - we tell them to go the doctor.

Why?  Don't prayers work for your lot either?   This is what James has to say to  the members of your congregation:

James5:  14-16
 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective".

Deary me , Reverend, are you saying James is talking nonsense?


The fact is - we have 4 medical doctors in our congregation and several para medics. We take medical issues very seriously. Yes, we pray - but this never means we don't let them go to doctors - or have medical advice. or medical attention. 

So what is it you pray for in these circumstances. 


In any event - we don't believe John 14 teaches what you are suggesting.

Which way is that? 


[A]     There are numerous other ways to understand it - and the fact that some don't is hardly an argument against the Scriptures - it really a message for more understanding. 

Yes of course there is. There always is when these verses become problematic, isn't there.



It is of course a tragedy the story you have provided. And yet we see stories like that every day in life

It is and we do. With prayers all going cruelly unanswered.   But seriously what can one expect when Jesus's own prayers went unanswered?  Pastor Bill,  even with all of his qualifications and  impressive cv must have (like you)  forgotten this bible fact .


- not simply in churches unfortunately but in civil life  -

Yes well this thread is to do with the churches and the bibles tales of the power of prayer......... and the pointlessness of it all . 



Education is a good goal - unfortunately not all families are educated well - especially in public schools.  At least churches provide a network where people can see how children are doing. 

Or not. 





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What a complete and utter cruel thing to promise?
Promise to whom? The poster won't say. His fakery needs to stay hidden.

...prayed not to be sacrificed.
Lie. He prayed for God's will to be done, even if that will meant His sacrifice.

Jesus now sits on the right hand of Majesty on high. And despite all your rage you are still just a rat in a cage.

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@Tradesecret
Thirdly, we teach our congregation that God answers our prayers with a yes or a no or a maybe. Sometimes God says yes and sometimes he says no. We cannot demand God do anything - why not? Because he is God - not us.
But Alladdin doesn't want a boss, he wants a genie with unlimited wishes!

Hi TS. God sometimes tells me "yes". Has He ever answered your prayers affirmatively? I thought so.

Isn't it kind of doltish to pick out only instances of "no" and then wonder why they are all no? Do I smell an agenda? 
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To remind us of what Pastor Bill says above that " Jesus has set a precedent" when he raised the dead.   Pastor Bill  and his congregation were attempting to raise back to life the dead daughter of Andrew and Kalley Heiligenthal's 2-year-old  Olive Alayne.


One wonders which "raising of the dead" by Jesus  Pastor Bill had in mind?

The most likely candidate of only three "raisings of the dead" performed by Jesus appears to be The daughter of Jairus.


But like many of these so called miraculous risings of "dead" bodies, there is a problem with this story. 

Whenwe take closer look at the “dead daughter” story we can see thateither Jesus lied or he didn’t perform a miracle or both;


18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, "My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live".  

19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples. 

20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.


23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
Matthew9: 18-25

So if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead _ her father would know the difference between dead and alive - ,  then either Jesus lied when he said she was only sleeping or Jesus was telling the truth and there was no miracle performed at all.

 I don't doubt Pastor Bill will accept this biblical fact and neither will any Christian.  But it is clearly there for anyone to see and read for themselves.

  
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Isn't it kind of doltish to pick out only instances of "no" and then wonder why they are all no? Do I smell an agenda? 
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@3RU7AL
George Carlin now knows.
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Notice how the loon quotes verses except the one addressing his topic?

Jas 4:3 - When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
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Interesting it is that even Jesus` prayers went unanswered while his skin sweated blood brought about by sheer terrifying fear as he thought of the ordeal he was about to face, (Luke22:44).    Yet,   just like those grieving parents,  he hadn't prayed for  worldly "pleasures" or the  "lustful things of this world" that James 4:3-4 speaks of.  Nor had they prayed to have their mortgages paid off or holidays in Hawaii. In other words , they were not prayers for selfish desires and only a sheer retard and utter dunce of a cretin in denial, would deuce they were.  No!  Jesus,  as in the case of those desperate grieving and faithful parents  BOTH had prayed  for LIFE from the LIFE giver himself. He that says :

                                    "I am the resurrection and the LIFE."
                                    "I am the bread of LIFE".
                                    “I am the way, and the truth, and the LIFE."
                                    "I came that they may have LIFE and have it abundantly".
indeed, once Jesus begins speaking about LIFE, there simply is no shutting him up from telling us about his love for LIFE and how we should love LIFE.

So wtf happened?

I wonder if the prayers of these sad , faithful grieving parents would  be answered if they were to simply inquire of god - the giver of life- in prayer why it was their prayers to save and raise their children weren't answered?

There again what should we make of  Isaiah1:15-17 that  tells us god says “ When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood”.….Stop doing wrong”.

I wonder what it was that Jesus and these grief stricken faithful parents of dead babies had done so wrong not to be heard and watch their prayers go unanswered. What blood had Jesus on his hands? What blood had these parents had on theirs?   Had not their sins been forgiven? Had not the "ransom" been paid?

"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5

And to add to all of this  confusion Matthew21:22 insists, "  And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith".





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And what happened with the "GREAT COMMISION"? 

Matthew 28:16-20
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

When the disciples were sent into the world blessed with the holy spirit, and the power to cast out demons the power of resurrection Matthew 10:8  had not they passed on these god given powers to other for them to go out and do the same? Or had they simply not obeyed the lords commandments which clearly says :
"Freely you have received; freely you shall give". ? 
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@Tradesecret



.
TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a man, to a woman, and now unknown, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he/she/unknown follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Timothy 4:3, an admitted sexual deviant, and had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, an embarrassed LIAR of their true gender,

YOUR AMBIGUOUS AND COMICAL QUOTE ONCE AGAIN: "Thirdly, we teach our congregation that God answers our prayers with a yes or a no or a maybe. Sometimes God says yes and sometimes he says no. We cannot demand God do anything - why not? Because he is God - not us."

In the following passage Jesus states the following:  "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mark 11:24)  Within your ungodly quote above where you Satanically state that Jesus answers prayers only with a yes or no, or a maybe, falls flat upon its face because Jesus says that all prayer requests will be granted!  Unfortunately for you once again,  the outcome is that you continue to be the Bible fool for contradicting Jesus' words, and in turn, you call Jesus the Christ a LIAR!

Tradesecret, how can you remain within this prestigious forum and not feel guilty of your complete Bible stupidity is beyond reason.


NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN THAT ISN'T AS BIBLE DUMBFOUNDED AS TRADESECRET WILL BE ...?



.
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NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN THAT ISN'T AS BIBLE DUMBFOUNDED AS TRADESECRET WILL BE ...?
Schtick, the dead horse.

Lol!
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Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context. #6



 Do you now. Well I find that claim simply astounding and  unbelievable !! And on two fronts.

[1] When your bible ignorance is pointed out to you,  your default is for us  "not expect you  to knowing everything" in the bible,  and claim not to  being an "expert",  and you regularly confess to "not remembering" things written in scripture   when you are caught in the act of  showing your biblical schoolboy errors and  bible ignorance. 

    But here  you are once again crowing about being able " to teach the bible in context". 

Tradesecret wrote: "Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context."#6

So how are you teaching them?

Do you suddenly put on your remembering trousers on and fall back on the high education that you received from all of the experts in the theological field that you were tutored under that you claim about here>.:

"Istudied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests andfathers from the Orthodox Church". #91

[2] And When you have been asked to and given the opportunity to put context into a particular biblical verse you simply refuse. Why ? 

 Why don't you set this thread straight by simply giving context to the verse in this sentence?


When the disciples were sent into the world blessed with the holy spirit, and the power to cast out demons the power of resurrection Matthew 10:8  had not they passed on these god given powers to other for them to go out and do the same? Or had they simply not obeyed the lords commandments which clearly says :
"Freely you have received; freely you shall give". ? 







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@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13  Ragnar

 Stay off my threads ethang5.  I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage.  You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .


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@Barney
Stay off my threads ethang5.  I don't want to engage you...
Then cease engagement yourself hypocrite. Stop @ing me. 
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So it appears that these miraculous gifts that Jesus' disciples were empowered with weren't passed down to others as he had instructed them to do.

Matthew 10:5-8
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.  As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’  Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give".

The way I read this is Jesus reminding the disciples that what they have “received” has been given without any cost to themselves,  underlying the word “freely.” He then makes the point of telling them to give just as freely because of the fact that they are ministering according to his free gift, and not their own native abilities. 

It appears that no one thought to point out the selfishness of the disciples to Pastor Bill and the wasted time and efforts of himself and his congregation when attempting by faith and prayer to raise child from the dead.