United States House of Representatives Mafia DP1

Author: ILikePie5

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drafterman
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To be clear, my role can protect other abilities from the following:
  • Role block
  • Redirection
  • Protective roles (e.g. if I strengthen a vig it will pierce doctors/bulletproof)
He says these are examples and includes "etc" but given that mafia can just kill the person I'm strengthening to stop their ability, I'm not sure what the "etc" could possibly mean.
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
See my other post on him lying. Even if he's lying it doesn't matter because Maf can just not RB you

Now if you're saying you want to kill him because he's being anti-town then that's a different story

I am open to killing him for being anti-town yes, but also acknowleding he is just as likely scum behaviorally.

I don't like to lynch people just because they're anti-town if I think they're town
Why is he more likely to be town acting like this than scum?
Speedrace
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@Lunatic
Gotcha
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@Lunatic
Why is he more likely to be town acting like this than scum?
I think Mikal is towny so I see no reason to scumread drafter based on the fact that he seemed to back out. And I think him tunneling Mikal is something he'd do as town as well

If you want to kill an anti-town person (and I agree that he's being anti-town) then that's your prerogative, just not what I would do
drafterman
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@Lunatic
Ask the mod this:

"Would the STRENGTHENER role allow other roles to succeed even if that player is killed that night?"

Greyparrot
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@drafterman
I am 100% on board with the original plan as provided by you, where you are a 1x vig who has guaranteed success unless he is roleblocked.

My role implies scumteam has a visiting role...likely a roleblock going by past game setups.
drafterman
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@Greyparrot
I can only assume that mafia has a roleblocker or driver or something otherwise I'm completely useless. I'm also asking about how my role interacts with misinformation roles.
drafterman
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Though given my character, maybe that's the joke. I have a lot of power in theory, but none in actuality. Galaxy brain shit right there.
Speedrace
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@Greyparrot
My role implies scumteam has a visiting role...likely a roleblock going by past game setups.
Since when does scum NOT have a visiting role :|
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@Lunatic
Alright.

The way I see this is that there's little chance that you or Elm are on a scum team with Draft. This kind of infighting wouldn't be happening if that was the actual dynamic. I don't have good reason to believe any of you are scum, either. I find it hard to believe that you'd claim a weak Vig as scum, so I view you as leaning town. I similarly have a hard time believing that Mikal would threaten as he has if he is scum, though that's a tougher call. I view him as largely null.

As for Draft, I'm less certain. I think he's town based on the early claim, but I also think that could easily be a scum ploy to out a power role or two (which he got - wouldn't be surprised if one of the outed roles died during the NP). I still don't think he's scum, though that's largely a behavioral factor in general, since he normally tries to conceal his role up front, but that's just a gut feeling. Meanwhile, I view his actions as largely anti-town. Even if Elm flips scum in the end, this is not unusual behavior for him, and it's frustrating to have Draft lean on something he already knows is a sore spot that will illicit Elm's negative responses. If he is town, then he's ignoring the fact that this kind of behavior does more harm than good and has turned this DP into a mess. I don't know if I'd be willing to vote to lynch him over it within the context of this game alone, but if it means stopping this kind of thing in the future, I'd be willing to do it.
Greyparrot
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@Speedrace
You would know, scum
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@whiteflame
What is your character?
Elminster
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@Lunatic
I need to fully catch up but I still think I'm right 

What do you say 


1) we lynch wf

If wf flips town, vig drafter 

2) if wf flips scum 

Poe vig 

I still think I'm right about one being scum and one being town

Possible both are town but doubtful. Extremely unlikely both are scum 



whiteflame
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@Greyparrot
What is your character?
I think we have more than enough claims (four full claims, if my count is correct) for DP1. Not interested in providing scum with more information before the NP. They have enough targets already, don't need to give them another one.
Elminster
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Another thing 

If pie said role / character for a fake claim

It's also very possible grey and drafter aren't scum

1) drafter claiming right away likely shows he's confident that role does not exist (fake claim ) or he's town

2) I don't think grey parrot wrote that justification

I guess they could have faked both of these but again it's unlikely

So likely a split there as well

Not grey and drafter 



Lunatic
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@drafterman
We did have a way, yes. Then you changed it. Now we no longer have a way.
You are changing how your role works. YOU. Your role is literally designed around mechanics like in mine. You shouldn't be worried that your role wouldn't work unless you are willfully lying about the role, or selling yourself a ridiculous narrative so you can get your way and tunnel mikal. 

Whatever reason you have changed you stance on the role, the end result is the same: you can't guarantee a kill on Elminster so you have voided the original agreement.
You are right, I can't kill elminster. Not by myself. The plan always included you motivating my role. If you are changing the mechanics of your own role, your are the one lying.

The same point in lynching anyone: to remove them from the game.
You wanted to remove the game to prevent him from quitting. We have since talked him out of quitting, and he is playing normally. Your objective was accomplished, and you are still trying to lynch him. 

Well, he's progressing the game in the sense he has agreed to sheep your vote, so I can see how you would want to keep him in the game. As it is, I believe actions have consequences. I don't think it is "out of whack" to not wish a person who acts like Elminster does to be in the same game.
You aren't just punishing mikal here, you are punishing the entire team by not even trying to consider his affiliation. Also if anything you are doing mikal a favor with your "punishment" he doesn't like playing here. The fact that he is trying to play and you are still trying to lynch him demonstrates your motives are for personal gain, not in the effort of winning, or solving who scum is. More likely you are just scum wanting a mislynch you think is consequence free, but in the off chance you aren't, then you are still a net detriment to your team, even more so now than mikal ever was.

Well, he's progressing the game in the sense he has agreed to sheep your vote, so I can see how you would want to keep him in the game. As it is, I believe actions have consequences. I don't think it is "out of whack" to not wish a person who acts like Elminster does to be in the same game.
A person who acts like elminster, you mean a person who is trying to play a normal game and adding pressure to inactives and questioning other players? He is doing more for the town right now than you are.

I didn't back out of the agreement: you did. If you can vouch for your original agreement, I'm in.
Nothing has changed if your role functions the way you said it did in post 10. 


It's certainly interesting that, after I mention that this might be a scheme by scum you magically reveal that you misunderstood your role and it can be stopped by something other than a roleblock.
The only drawback that can happen is if you are roleblocked, I am night killed, and Mikal is the scum who isn't carrying the night kill. In which case my role also operates as an investigative one and we would know for a fact that mikal is scum and end up lynchinh him anyway.

I think it is an entirely reasonable interpretation of my role to suggest that the ability cannot be stopped and I will agree that having the mafia night kill also include a free roleblock is out of line and pretty much makes both you and my roles rather weakened.
Your role literally counters how weak my role is.

Even permitting the free roleblock, I agree that my role should by pass it and allow the ability to work, but Pie has ruled that is not the case.
Where?


Lunatic
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@drafterman
Ask the mod this:

"Would the STRENGTHENER role allow other roles to succeed even if that player is killed that night?"

Done
Elminster
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In also so up for policy lynching drafter just because he's annoying 

If he's doing it as scum , then we got scum. If he's doing it as town , we got rid of a boomer who's going to tunnel the entire game and cost us progress 

I still think wf is prob the better target but not sure how to deal with drafter. If he happens to be town then him and I can't be alive the last day phase or mafia will auto hammer. 

And I think everyone at this point realizes he's throwing harder than I have the past games by being stubborn or he's mafia. 

If he's town I find it hilarious he's trying to teach me a lesson by doing exactly what I did lmao. 


Greyparrot
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@Elminster
I don't like whiteflames justification for not revealing his name.
Elminster
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@Greyparrot
Same
Lunatic
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@Elminster
If he's town I find it hilarious he's trying to teach me a lesson by doing exactly what I did lmao. 
^
whiteflame
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@Greyparrot
Look back at my previous posts, I argued that we shouldn’t push any more claims this phase. Be happy to character claim at the start of DP2, but if either you or Elm somehow feel you need more information this phase, then I’d like to know why. Why are 4 full claims, more than we’ve had in any game I’ve played during DP1, not enough for you? Is it because you need more information to pick out the perfect NK?
drafterman
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@Lunatic
You are changing how your role works. YOU.
In as much as I have clarified how my role works, it is in exactly the same manner that you have clarified. My calling yours a lie was out of line, I will admit. But as I stated, the end result is the same in that the original parameters of the agreement cannot be met, therefore it is void.

Your role is literally designed around mechanics like in mine.
No it isn't. It is literally designed around roleblockers, drivers, redirectors, and protective roles.


Whatever reason you have changed you stance on the role, the end result is the same: you can't guarantee a kill on Elminster so you have voided the original agreement.
You are right, I can't kill elminster. Not by myself. The plan always included you motivating my role. If you are changing the mechanics of your own role, your are the one lying.
In the original agreement you stipulated that the only way to stop your role was through roleblocking. Is that or is that not the case currently? If it is not the case, then the original agrement is voided.


The same point in lynching anyone: to remove them from the game.
You wanted to remove the game to prevent him from quitting. We have since talked him out of quitting, and he is playing normally. Your objective was accomplished, and you are still trying to lynch him. 
I'm less interested in preventing him from quitting than mitigating the end result of him quitting. I consider his exit from the game to be a nigh certainty and as I stated earlier on, him being removed from the game earlier is better than latter, regardless of his affiliation.


Well, he's progressing the game in the sense he has agreed to sheep your vote, so I can see how you would want to keep him in the game. As it is, I believe actions have consequences. I don't think it is "out of whack" to not wish a person who acts like Elminster does to be in the same game.
You aren't just punishing mikal here, you are punishing the entire team by not even trying to consider his affiliation. Also if anything you are doing mikal a favor with your "punishment" he doesn't like playing here.
Then he should be on board with it. I win. He wins. We all win by not having a player that doesn't want to be here. Win-win-win.

The fact that he is trying to play and you are still trying to lynch him demonstrates your motives are for personal gain, not in the effort of winning, or solving who scum is. More likely you are just scum wanting a mislynch you think is consequence free, but in the off chance you aren't, then you are still a net detriment to your team, even more so now than mikal ever was.

Well, he's progressing the game in the sense he has agreed to sheep your vote, so I can see how you would want to keep him in the game. As it is, I believe actions have consequences. I don't think it is "out of whack" to not wish a person who acts like Elminster does to be in the same game.
A person who acts like elminster, you mean a person who is trying to play a normal game and adding pressure to inactives and questioning other players? He is doing more for the town right now than you are.
By sheeping you? I'm sure it's in your interest to spin sheeping you as being beneficial to town. But I don't think that bears objective scrutiny.


I didn't back out of the agreement: you did. If you can vouch for your original agreement, I'm in.
Nothing has changed if your role functions the way you said it did in post 10. 
And nothing has changed if your rules functions the way you said it did in post 103.



It's certainly interesting that, after I mention that this might be a scheme by scum you magically reveal that you misunderstood your role and it can be stopped by something other than a roleblock.
The only drawback that can happen is if you are roleblocked, I am night killed, and Mikal is the scum who isn't carrying the night kill. In which case my role also operates as an investigative one and we would know for a fact that mikal is scum and end up lynchinh him anyway.
Since you just contemplated how this plan might fail, does that make you scum now, since it apparently makes me scum?


I think it is an entirely reasonable interpretation of my role to suggest that the ability cannot be stopped and I will agree that having the mafia night kill also include a free roleblock is out of line and pretty much makes both you and my roles rather weakened.
Your role literally counters how weak my role is.
There is nothing about my role that suggests it was put in to count yours.


Even permitting the free roleblock, I agree that my role should by pass it and allow the ability to work, but Pie has ruled that is not the case.
Where?
In our PM.
Elminster
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@whiteflame
It's not about needing information it's about the response to the question. If you aren't willing to character claim a character in a game where we have already said there are weird and very lengthy justifications that don't necessarily imply the role it's for one of two reasons 

1) not wanted to be caught out 
2) yours implies a role 

I can say from mine. He's reaching for these justifications and most are very likely something only pia would write or understand because of his bias 

ILikePie5
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Vote Count:

Drafterman (2/6) -  Greyparrot, Elm
Whiteflame (2/6) - Speed, Lunatic
Elminster (1/6) - Drafter

Elminster
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Also for drafters sake I actually hope he does show up as scum. Because the hypocrisy of trying to policy lynch me for being anti town based in past games, while being completely anti town to achieve it in a current game is laughable. 

At this point he doesn't even have high ground to stand on 

drafterman
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I'm actually going to but Lunatic in my town pile. I don't buy him going through all of these shenanigans of claiming 1x vig but then clarifying it with this stuff about how it works if he's targeted by the mafia.
Elminster
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@Lunatic
Is he actually that stubborn he does this as town or is it trying to get a mislynch. 

Also speed is defending him. Don't see that as scum either 


More notes 

Likely

Not 

Drafter / wf
Drafter / gp
Drafter / speed 



drafterman
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It's interesting and telling that the sad state of this game on this site is that Mikal gets more tolerance for his behavior than I. He rage quits three times in a row in response to legitimate mafia behavior. He just simply can't stand being pressured at all and he rage quits, getting himself lynched or breaking rules and getting mod killed and people are like, "meh."

Yet I propose we lynch a person with this history of behavior to mitigate its potential effects on this game and all of a sudden I'm this terrible person who is going to ruin this game.

This double standard is bullshit.

This is the last I am going to mention Elminster's history or Elminster himself. My vote will stay on him the rest of the game and all future games until he is no longer in them.

Lynch me if you want but you're just rewarding his shit.
Elminster
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Unvote
Vtl drafter