XMAS MAFIA - END GAME

Author: Danielle

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#151
drafterman
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@Danielle
I 1,000% disagree with this. The next time I'm scum without a fake claim I probably won't even bother trying to look for one and che sera sera. It is so annoying that most games are primarily broken by theme analysis and character claims. Take last game for example. I don't know dick about anime so right off the bat I'm at a disadvantage. But suppose one of us scum was pressured to claim early on DP1.
I disagree that it's as broken as much as you think it is.  More to my point is, why do we push for claims at all, then? Why do we treat later claims as more suspicious than earlier claims? Why do we put value in counter-claims?

If mafia is given fake claims as a matter of course then claims mean nothing. It makes pushing for claims a waste of time, it makes popcorn claiming completely pointless, and it eliminates the possibility of counter claims which are quite a big part of mafia.

I could have claimed a TV anime character only for people to realize on DP2 the town is all movie characters. Therefore I could have been found scum for no other reason than I picked a wrong character right off the bat. That's not scum hunting. That was town getting lucky.
I think that's part of the challenge of being mafia is that you have to figure out what the theme break is and find a claim. I think the game should be designed so that there are viable and believable fake claims for mafia, but I think they have to work to figure out what they are.

There should be a balance between claiming early and risking being counter claimed or making a bad thematic claim, but being town read if you claim successfully, versus waiting and seeing how the theme plays out to make a safer claim but having it not as strongly accepted by town. It is a trade off that players get to choose and adds a level of strategy.

You eliminate that entire decision making process by giving Mafia fake claims. It's helping them blend in with town in a game where their primary challenge is how well they can blend in with town.

It's stupid and barely even qualifies as the game of Mafia IMO,
Totally wrong. Mafia started out as only vanillas. There weren't things such as roles or characters and it was entirely a behavioral game. There was nothing to claim let alone fake-claim.

The Cop and Doctor roles came in to add some variation, but then games were all completely Open. There was nothing for Mafia to fake claim except Vanilla unless they wanted to out the Cop and/or Doctor and be counter claim. And indeed that was a big strategy. If doctor was dead, it would be fairly common for a Maf to claim cop to out the real cop and town has to decide which is which. In either event, the cop dies (either they mislynch them or mafia Nks them). Point is: no fake claims for mafia.

And while open setups are not unheard of in the role madness we have today, they exist and are not too uncommon and Open Setups, by design, prevent any fake claiming since all the roles are known in advance. Maf has to claim among them and risk being counter claimed. Usually the setup is designed so this isn't disastrous (either by having sufficient vanillas, or roles that inhibit the ability to test CCs, or make it unwise to mass claim).

The issue we have here are characters, justification, and fluff. Town gets so hyper about specific wording and justifications and such. I agree that the game should not turn on these but the solution is for mods to stop turning player PMs into snippets from their latest fan fiction and just make it simple.

Your character is CHARACTER.

Your role is ROLE. This is what it does.

Period.

That's why I have an entire spreadsheet with role PMs so it is impossible for my games to turn on specific wording and I have stopped providing justifications at all.

but that's how the majority of (especially early) lynches are decided. I think with a wide theme like Christmas scum probs shouldn't have been given fake claims, but really including a Hated was my big mistake. I honestly don't think you guys would have won if she wasn't Hated :P 
I'd say it was the vote thief rather than the hated.


#152
Speedrace
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@ILikePie5
come join the fun Mr. You Should Not Shoot NP1 as Vigilante 
I've never said that and I was correct with my shot xD, my other target would've been drafter so I've been on point all game
#153
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@drafterman
+1 to all of your stuff
#154
Speedrace
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Maf just got really lucky killing me. I would've killed drafter next
#155
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@WaterPhoenix
Please please please please PLEASE READ YOUR PM FULLYYYYYYYYYYYY
#156
Speedrace
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Water and Magic lost us the game. Everyone else played really well
#157
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Also I love being vigilante xD give me that role more
#158
drafterman
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@Speedrace
I don't consider your Vigging of Supa to have been anti Town. He was Cult third for crying out loud.

Thirds are always a problem for Town because they quite often need to be eliminated (as with Cult, for instance) but killing them helps Mafia numbers-wise.

At worst it is the equivalent for a mislynch which, given the NL DP1, shouldn't have been that negative an impact for Town.

Town basically lost on two miskills in a 12p game.
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#159
Danielle
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@drafterman
If mafia is given fake claims as a matter of course then claims mean nothing. It makes pushing for claims a waste of time, it makes popcorn claiming completely pointless, and it eliminates the possibility of counter claims which are quite a big part of mafia.


Yes, popcorning is only useful when there are no fake claims or only 1 fake claim given to 2+ scum which is the norm on DART. 

Counter-claiming is a huge part of mafia in closed set ups. It is almost never done on DART. I've played in the last ~6 months of games and there was not a single cc done by scum as a strategy. In fact I haven't seen a single CC at all until this game where MisterChris cc'd Water who lied as town. It is rare for mafia to utilize that here. It would be interesting if it was done more. 



Totally wrong. Mafia started out as only vanillas. 

It may have started out as only vanillas just like ice cream. That doesn't mean only vanilla is good. All-vanilla games are pointless. I've explained at length why I won't play them. They're boring, annoying, and primarily all guessing. I guarantee it's luck and little to no skill - I'd be willing to host like 5 small games of this and look at the statistical probability (somehow) to verify.

It's interesting you think that a pure mafia game has all vanillas and simultaneously think  the challenge of being mafia is that you have to figure out what the theme break is and find a claim. That seems contradictory. A vanilla game or closed set up game is a game based primarily on behavior. That's what I like but I do like SOME role variation for fun and detective work. For instance, it was interesting how all the night actions worked in this game and verified each other + hinted at people's roles and such. Scum would have been caught lying had ya'll claimed the roles I gave you and a watcher/tracker was on you. Everyone including Magic thought Luna was the Caroler until he said otherwise because of the results the Tracker outed with him visiting her. I think it's fun to utilize roles and night actions plus behavior to see if people are telling the truth about their claims. Like if Supa claimed Bulletproof but then was caught visiting someone, he would have been found scum. The claims itself mean nothing - that's what I argue in every game. Verifying your role also means nothing. It's a lot of little things that add up to catching scum. That's what I like - the detective work - not saying "oh yeah that character is probably in the game." That's whack as hell and indicates positively nothing about your skill or lack thereof if you just so happen to choose a good or bad fake character claim. If anything that says more about your laziness or time commitment and luck than it does how good of a Mafia player you are. 

But yeah I'm not totally wrong. If anything it's a matter of opinion and preference, so obviously mine is valid. 

#160
drafterman
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@Danielle
I agree that all vanilla games are boring. I like themes and such. I just brought it up to show that Mafia can go from one extreme to the other. All vanillas are probably fun in-person (as when mafia was invented) but plays poorly online. At the other extreme we have role madness with elaborate PMs and arcane theme.

And everything in between. I agree that there are different ways to play and mod and design.
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#161
Danielle
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@drafterman
I've brought up before an idea I had for a JOAT game that was all JOATs instead of all vanillas. That way there would be the behavioral analysis necessary from an all vanilla game, but also the utility of being able to catch people in lies with their night actions which I think is fun. After giving it some thought I think it might play out better as a game with multiple JOATs instead of all JOATs, but even that I'm not sure of. I'd probably like to try it as a small live game first to see how it pans out. Thoughts? 

#162
drafterman
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@Danielle
I love the idea of an all or mostly JOAT gane
#163
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@Lunatic
Second favorite. The overanalysis between L and Light was truly amazing. Interesting and an amazing show. I still love Naruto though :)

#164
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@Danielle
In fact Supa got very upset about that in a game recently where he lamented that nobody ever listens to him, 
I called Speed’s exact move he would do to frame me. He’s going to waive the NK and then you as a Jailor would jail me to suggest that I was the mafia, hence giving Speed the win. I said in the DP and knew I was gonna lose despite me knowing Speed and his play style through me playing games with him as mafia and his thought process. Extremely aggravated that no one listened but oh well
#165
Speedrace
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@Vader
I called Speed’s exact move he would do to frame me. He’s going to waive the NK and then you as a Jailor would jail me to suggest that I was the mafia, hence giving Speed the win. I said in the DP and knew I was gonna lose despite me knowing Speed and his play style through me playing games with him as mafia and his thought process. Extremely aggravated that no one listened but oh well
Because all evidence pointed to you being scum lol. That's not a sign that you had bad reasoning, just a sign that I played well
#166
ILikePie5
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@Speedrace
WHY DIDN'T Y'ALL LYNCH PIE
Cause people like Pie duh
#167
Vader
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@Speedrace
And I am going to keep saying that what I was saying was not bad reasoning because of the interactions occurring based on past games. I still think my logic wasn't bad despite what most people said and was not inherently scummy
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#168
Danielle
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@Speedrace
Water and Magic lost us the game. Everyone else played really well

That is completely wrong. Magic was aggressively calling out 2/3 of the scum team and every one of you told her she was wrong when her reads were 100% dead on balls accurate, including her assessment of whiteflame going quiet which was indeed intentional. She explained in multiple posts why she was voting whiteflame and it was disregarded on the basis that whiteflame is not an aggressive player generally.  You and Luna responded "that's just how he plays as town" which did not address the specific points she noted from this particular game. As an example: 

DP1 post 191 (to whiteflame): What's your deal. First you want Supa's claim, and say you were willing to jump on any bandwagon to get more claims (though lots of claims were already out for scum to see). your defense of this tactic is "not playing passively?" Then when I push back on you a little more with that strategy you complete 180, are in "perfect agreement" and VTNL, the epitome of passivity.

She literally spelled out an inconsistency of his alleged logic, and someone flip flopping like that is a scum tell -- yet she was the only one who caught it. You argued against all this analysis which was completely right, but you have the audacity to say she lost the game? LMAO stop. 

Town lost the game lynching Water on DP2. Why would Water say Pie could confirm him if he was mafia?! That lynch was insanely rushed, especially with a Caroler report. Obviously WaterPhoenix fucked up a bit but there was no need to lynch him so quickly. The day phase was like 10 minutes old and most people hadn't posted. What if there were other results? Smh. 

Anyway I'm curious to see how future games play out. I can't wait to see everyone be so kind and patient with each other like we are expecting Magic to be.

#169
Speedrace
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@Vader
And I am going to keep saying that what I was saying was not bad reasoning because of the interactions occurring based on past games. I still think my logic wasn't bad despite what most people said and was not inherently scummy
I know that lol it wasn't scummy and no one thinks it was. The only problem is, the only reason you knew you had good logic was because you knew you were town. No one else knew that, therefore they weren't gonna follow your logic
#170
Speedrace
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@Danielle
She literally spelled out an inconsistency of his alleged logic, and someone flip flopping like that is a scum tell -- yet she was the only one who caught it. You argued against all this analysis which was completely right, but you have the audacity to say she lost the game? LMAO stop. 
Because she was tunneling. Tunneling only makes you seem unreasonable and like you are trying to lynch someone just because, which makes other people less likely to listen to you
#171
Speedrace
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@Danielle
Town lost the game lynching Water on DP2. Why would Water say Pie could confirm him if he was mafia?! That lynch was insanely rushed, especially with a Caroler report. Obviously WaterPhoenix fucked up a bit but there was no need to lynch him so quickly. The day phase was like 10 minutes old and most people hadn't posted. What if there were other results? Smh. 
Yeah the lynch was dumb but it's still partly Water's fault lol. Had he read his PM it never would've happened
#172
Vader
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@Speedrace
But they had no reason besides your play I called
#173
Speedrace
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@Vader
But they had no reason besides your play I called
The reason was that why would I lynch Chris over you, plus they had scumread you DP2 and DP3
#174
drafterman
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@Vader
Dude I have an open invitation to explain to you why your play was bad that game that you won't take me up on.
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#175
Danielle
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@Speedrace
She wasn't tunneling. She expressed willingness to lynch herself multiple times and made a solid case against drafter while highlighting behavior she thought was scummy from other players as well. She was focused on you and Bullish for a moment and in fact said part of the reason she wanted to vote whiteflame was because it'd help her read Bullish. Nobody responded to any of her points regarding the dynamic between Bullish and whiteflame which I know because I just went back and re-read DP1. Actually someone did ask her and she made a point about why one of them must be scum which nobody responded to. Lunatic was looking @ Bullish for other reasons. 

Anyway she said whiteflame was her biggest scum read and outlined why. When ya'll said "he just plays that was as town" she supplemented the analysis about his narrator-like behavior (which he does do as town) by highlighting inconsistencies in his game play from THIS game. You, Luna, and everyone else missed it -- but instead of saying "damn she was right" you guys came into the End Game guns blazing, probably feeling defensive and looking to blame her for ya'lls failure to recognize her valid points. That's nonsense. She literally did everything in her power to explain her reads AND gave reads on other people + voted to lynch drafterman, so that's not "tunneling."

I can call out my disagreement with Magic that any sexism is at play, but I do agree with her that some people just have egos so large it's insane. Saying she lost the game is laughable. For whatever reason people don't wanna give her props for nailing her analysis, but if any one of us had done that we would be gloating in the End Game. Heck in the last end game Lunatic was giving whiteflame props for his reads and whiteflame didn't really have good reads lol town lost badly. Yet in this game people can't give her props for crushing that analysis and instead want to BLAME HER FOR THE LOSS? *eye roll* Unreal. 
#176
Speedrace
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@Danielle
She wasn't tunneling. She expressed willingness to lynch herself multiple times and made a solid case against drafter while highlighting behavior she thought was scummy from other players as well.
Trying to lynch yourself doesn't prove that someone else is scum, that just distracts from the game and is anti-town. No one here is saying that her reads were wrong, but that the way she handled them in the game were anti-town, which contributed to the loss

I'd be willing to retract my statement that whiteflame would behave the same if she can correctly townread him in a different game, but I doubt that.
#177
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Generally have little interest in wading into this again, but I will say straight up that I think Magic had good reads based on substantive behavioral information. The problem, as I see it, is that that information applies just as well to games where I've been town. However, that might just be a misperception of my normal play, though a lot of people seem to agree that it is my normal. Maybe Magic is picking up on subtler cues and I do behave differently when I'm on a scum team. That would be enlightening for me, though I'm not yet convinced that I did anything that substantially deviated from my normal play, at least in DP1. Others did call me out on it, but it was mainly Magic, Bullish (who also doesn't have experience with me in forum play), and That1User. That1 is an outlier here, as she is the only one who has had experience with me who also read me as anti-town (mainly as TP), though whether that's the result of bandwagoning (I admit to doing it as well, and That1 does it a lot) or hypersensitivity after the game where Danielle and I were town is a different story. 

Nonetheless, I fully admit that I could be wrong. Will be happy to get psychological intel on myself if that's the case.
#178
Elminster
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Connor rides my ass all the time over how I chose to play mafia. I just ignore him and keep doing my thing. I think where you lose people is drawing a line from them disagreeing with you and connect it to "I'm a woman". 
#179
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sorry found this gem inadvertently but top tier content. 
#180
LikeMagic
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@Elminster
Connor rides my ass all the time over how I chose to play mafia. I just ignore him and keep doing my thing. I think where you lose people is drawing a line from them disagreeing with you and connect it to "I'm a woman". 
I was not saying that people disagreed with me on my reads because I am a woman. To the contrary, I said Tuf strikes me as someone that is very respectful of women. That comment about gender bias was in response to Tuf's perception/sensitivity to my expressions of game related frustrations or anger and especially as it relates to live mafia. The fact is people literally curse each other out, call people fvcking idiots, go batshit, and belittle other players throughout the game and in endgame in every game, when they disagree or just out of random annoyances with the game. This behavior of screaming at players into submission, being belligerent and overly antagonistic/aggressive is especially prevalent in live mafia. Yet, when I engage in behavior similar, though not to the same degree, it evokes a different response and stands out. It is perceived as personal or emotional. 

I stand by the fact that this differentiated reception/perception of the behavior is very much gendered, and that is something I am sure Danielle would confirm, having had private discussions about how annoying that differentiation is and how I would be better off playing into the gendered bias by softening my approach for the sake of game enjoyment, even if the differentiation is unreasonable and due to unconscious bias. 

That said, I am happy this thread has brought entertainment to your day. :-)