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Danielle
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@Mopac
Thanks for your response. Can I ask a few questions?  #1 If I said I shouldn't have to report child molestation that I know is occurring because of my devout Pastafarianism and belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would that be acceptable? 

Suppose someone raped your mother.  The perpetrator confessed their crime to their Scientology auditor (the person who hears Scientologist confessions -- and by the way sometimes auditors are children). The auditor advises the perp to live a better life going forward. #2 Does that qualify as justice to you?  #3 Why do we send people to law enforcement instead of clergy when they do wrong? 
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@Danielle
Hypothetical situation.
Someone is guilty of a crime, insert whatever one you want.
Now, you have a choice, you can either have it so there is an avenue where they can talk to someone and, hopefully, get their life put together and thus won't commit future crimes, BUT they also will not face justice for the crimes they did commit (they might also be told by this confidant to turn themselves in and might even do so).
OR
They have no one to talk to and thus continue committing crimes and possibly never getting caught.

Which would you prefer?
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@Danielle
#1 If I said I shouldn't have to report child molestation that I know is occurring because of my devout Pastafarianism and belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would that be acceptable?

I believe it is everyone's right to not report things they see. Whether or not that is moral is a different question. It's not a religious issue.

Suppose someone raped your mother.  The perpetrator confessed their crime to their Scientology auditor (the person who hears Scientologist confessions -- and by the way sometimes auditors are children). The auditor advises the perp to live a better life going forward. #2 Does that qualify as justice to you?

The 5th amendment guarantees the right to not have to incriminate oneself. It's not a religious issue.


  #3 Why do we send people to law enforcement instead of clergy when they do wrong?

Secular authority is not the domain of the church.

Danielle
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@TheMorningsStar
You acknowledged that in situation "A" where someone confesses their crimes, they might still continue committing them -- so why should I be thankful they confessed? 

Similarly in scenario "B" you're saying if someone commits more crimes they might  never get caught. But they might very well be caught. So you're  presenting a hypothetical situation with no clues as to what is more likely to happen. Here I will say I prefer situation "B" because most criminals don't have people to talk to about their crimes, yet we still expect law enforcement and the criminal justice system to work. 

In choosing situation "B" I am not prioritizing retributive justice or punishment -- it's just that you acknowledged their confessing might not get them to stop anyway (and in fact psychologists would say some people can't stop) so in that case it is not effective or worthwhile. 

Now your turn to answer my questions :) #1 If I said I shouldn't have to report child molestation that I know is occurring because of my devout Pastafarianism and belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would that be acceptable? 

#2 If your mom was raped, and the perpetrator confessed their crime to their Scientology auditor (which could be a child) who counsels them to lead a better life, would that qualify as justice to you?  #3 Why do we send people to law enforcement instead of clergy when they do wrong? Thank you in advance for your reply. 

Danielle
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@Mopac
I believe it is everyone's right to not report things they see. Whether or not that is moral is a different question. It's not a religious issue.

So you don't think anyone (including teachers, therapists, social workers, pediatricians and cops) should have to report of abuse they know is going on. I strongly disagree but appreciate the straight forward answer. 

To confirm, you do not think it was criminally negligent for the Catholic Church to allow child molestation to continue by known pedophiles, correct? 

The 5th amendment guarantees the right to not have to incriminate oneself. It's not a religious issue.
Right, the 5th amendment applies to not incriminating one's self. It doesn't have to do with reporting other people. But what does this have to do with my question about whether or not an auditor providing spiritual guidance qualifies as justice for rape? 


Secular authority is not the domain of the church.
Do you think if someone commits a crime, it would be sufficient to confess to their deity/priest and not have the criminal justice system involved? If not, why not? 
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@Danielle
You acknowledged that in situation "A" where someone confesses their crimes, they might still continue committing them -- so why should I be thankful they confessed?
Because they might stop or might even turn themselves in. If even a fraction of people reform or turn themselves in, wouldn't you want the option to be there?

Similarly in scenario "B" you're saying if someone commits more crimes they might  never get caught. But they might very well be caught.
In which case, in scenario 'A', why would it matter if the clergy told the authorities if they are going to be caught anyways?

 If I said I shouldn't have to report child molestation that I know is occurring because of my devout Pastafarianism and belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, would that be acceptable? 
Considering how no one actually has devout Pastafarianism as a belief, no it wouldn't, you would literally be using your 'faith' as a shield, but something tells me you already know this and are asking this question out of a place of dishonesty.

If your mom was raped, and the perpetrator confessed their crime to their Scientology auditor (which could be a child) who counsels them to lead a better life, would that qualify as justice to you?
No, but how is that applicable to anything I have said? If I had to choose between someone facing justice after raping 3 people or someone not facing justice but reforming after raping 1 person I would choose the side without justice. We don't live in a perfect world.

Why do we send people to law enforcement instead of clergy when they do wrong?
If by 'do wrong' you mean 'break the law' then there are numerous reasons, from the concept of justice, to separation of church and state, etc.
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The fact that a priest could make a ummmmm,  false confession stuffs everything up. 
Soooooooooo it's back to the start.  

 

Danielle
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Anyone could make anything up. 
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@ethang5
Technically this was addressed to Danielle, but they haven't answered it yet, and the claims are just so blatantlly hand-waving, that I have a very hard time believing that you want to follow "logic" ethang. 


Studies show there are two types of child molesters: fixated and regressive. The fixated child molester — the stereotypical pedophile — cannot be considered homosexual or heterosexual because he often finds adults of either sex repulsive, and often molests children of both sexes.
Bolderdash. A heterosexual man would find any sexual contact with another male, regardless of age, repulsive. I call bs on this study.
That's an appeal to ignorance if I've ever seen one, the entire point of the study is to establish that pedophiles are separate from homo or heterosexuals in their sexual attraction, gender isn't the concern there, age is. Something that might help you understand - Sapiosexuality is the sexaulity that deals with people finding high levels of intelligence sexually attractive, just people with high intelligence is the measure, not gender at all. Just like pedophiles, they don't care about the gender of the person, while pedophiles are interested in children, sapiosexuals are interested in people of high intelligence. This isn't me being patronizing, this is me legitmately trying to explain things, I know its a little bit abstract whenever you yourself are viewing things as, presumably, a heterosexual. And your only frame of reference is as one, but this is an entirely different sort of sexuality. 


Regressive child molesters are generally attracted to other adults, but may "regress" to focusing on children when confronted with stressful situations.
More bs. Many, many otherwise "normal" adult guys would sleep with a physically mature 16 year old female if they could get away with it. It has nothing to do with regression or stress.
Let's just note here, all of your arguments are built on assumptions with no citations, they are all also built on generalizations. I know adults who have been visibly disgusted with the idea of sleeping with a teenager of their preferred gender. The funny thing, this guy isn't the best at lying, he's not atrocious or anything, but anyone who knows him could tell that the reaction was genuine. Because some people realize that kind of thing is manipulative and wrong, especially the older you get. I would implore that you provide some actual logic behind your assertions, before, asserting them. Danielle has an actual study that has been peer reviewed backing up their words, what do you have?


Researchers found that the majority of regressed offenders were heterosexual in their adult relationships. The Child Molestation Research & Prevention Institute reports that 90% of child molesters target children in their network of family and friends, and the majority are men married to women. 
Word play. The majority of pedophiles ARE men, and the majority of men ARE married to women.
Um... that has nothing to do with it, the point is that the vast majority of pedophiles are married to women. That was the point. Even if we ignore Danielle's phrasing and use yours - "The majority of pedophiles ARE men, and the majority of men ARE married to women" we come to the exact same result, that the vast majority of pedophiles are married to women, and the study (which you have failed to address seriously once) draws a distinction between their sexuality. I understand that the entire idea makes you uncomfortable, it makes me uncomfortable too, that isn't an excuse to dismiss the research because you don't understand it. 


Most child molesters, therefore, are not gay people lingering outside bathrooms waiting to snatch children or whatever other nonsense the far-right peddles to fear monger and scare ignorant people that are easy to trick.
More deceptive word play. Male child molesters who molest boys ARE gay. We know most child molesters are not gay, because most men are not gay.
This is just incorrect, as noted above, the vast majority of pedophiles are interested in either gender, the gender doesn't actually matter, but that the person is a child. That is the distinction, sexually speaking, for a pedophile according to the research. Let's use a heterosexual man as an example: James is walking down the street, and coming down the path opposite him, is a pretty woman. He is sexually attracted to that person because she is female. If we switch out the heterosexual man out with a pedophile, and the woman out for a child, that pedophile would be attracted, not because of gender, but because of their age as a child. Again, this is abstract and not something people like to think about, but that is not an excuse to use your blatant homophobia. 


Instead most pedophiles are people who seem normal and trustworthy; that is why parents do not suspect anything and give them access to their children.
Most child molesters are easy to figure out if the parents paid attention and weren't fooled by insipid political correctness that tries to cancel reality. Most children are never molested. Molesters look for children of poor, uneducated, uninterested parents with loopy progressive  ideas about parenting.
Do you have any evidence for anything you're saying? Everything you claim here seems to be built on a bias against progressive ideas, in "canceling reality" as a progressive, I'm actually not the biggest fan of the whole "cancel" rhetoric. Not to mention, you are also biased on what you think reality is, the entire rhetoric you are using is what racists use to claim whenever "progressives" said that black people were human. Its what sexists said whenever people finally let women vote, its what homophobes said whenever gays were finally allowed to marry, and its what transphobes said whenever trans people were allowed to actually exist. You seem explicitly and implicitly bigoted and biased. 


But I digress. I hope you find it in your heart to do some research and accept that your beliefs about gay men are totally invalid and predicated on bigotry and discrimination that is not substantiated by the facts.
I don't subscribe to PC nonsense, and I never allow it to cancel reality I see before my eyes. Gay men are just like straight men. That is how I know them. They are no more honest or saintly than straight men. And homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is nothing to be cheered, or congratulated. It does not bestow virtue. It just is.
Uh huh, your entire rhetoric doesn't agree with this, it shows that you are biased against them.... well that or you just dismiss all studies with a hand wave whenever they reach conclusions you don't agree with. Your framing of this whole issue does not at all imply what you said. Also... I would definitely say that if it was illegal for you to show your sexuality, which you have admitted here there is nothing wrong with being gay, where you could be hung for being gay for centuries, then yes - you absolutely should celebrate being able to actually express that sexuality. The whole "PC nonsense" as you call it, is trying to protect people who need it, not pedophiles. Its to protect mentally lagging children and adults, who have been oppressed and abused with words like "ret**ded" and its used to make sure that people who treated black people as literal property can't use the word they used to declare them so. Its to make sure that words that were screamed at gay men as they were hung at the literal stake, can't be used. 
Danielle
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@TheMorningsStar
Because they might stop or might even turn themselves in. If even a fraction of people reform or turn themselves in, wouldn't you want the option to be there?

Sure. You don't need to confess to a priest first. You could turn yourself in on your own, or speak to someone else like a therapist, social worker or psychologist. Is there any evidence to back up the supposition that people who speak to priests first are more likely to turn themselves in later on? Probably not.


Considering how no one actually has devout Pastafarianism as a belief, no it wouldn't, you would literally be using your 'faith' as a shield, but something tells me you already know this and are asking this question out of a place of dishonesty.
I chose Pastafarianism because most religious people find it a ridiculous concept. Similarly a lot of aspects of popular religions like Christianity sound totally ridiculous to atheists and people of other faiths. For instance the idea of someone rising from the dead after several days and then floating off into the sky like a helium balloon is one of many laughable / absurd beliefs that Christians hold dear, and expect other people to respect  even though their beliefs sound insane to other people. So why shouldn't you respect a declared Pastafarian? I referenced Scientology because a lot of people find that to be a ridiculous cult with crazy beliefs as well, yet it is a legitimate religion according to government standards and the tens of thousands of people who devote their life to it. Unlike Pastafarians, Scientologists are very serious. 

No, but how is that applicable to anything I have said? 
My question about Scientologist auditors doesn't have to do with anything you said.  It's me repeating the hypothetical question I posed to someone else that you glossed over (and chose to ask me a question instead which I answered). You still haven't answered my question though. The specific question was do you think justice would be served if someone raped your mother, and the extent of their "punishment" was confessing to an auditor who instructed them to lead a better life going forward. 

I assume the answer is no and that you would want criminal justice upheld in a court of law, per your acknowledgment that we do have laws to govern society that exist separate from people's subjective religious beliefs. So the question becomes why should people who confess to priests et. al be allowed to feel like they can clear their conscience without legal repercussions while the victims do not get justice. I think it's an interesting topic. 
Deb-8-a-bull
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@Danielle
Correct. 

Sooooooooo ,  it comes back to what Etang said. 
It's should be everyone's right to not report. So on. 
I think. 

Then back to you. 
Because anyone could make anything up. ( within reason ) 

Thus brining it to a he said she said. 
Buttttttttt. 
I'm thinking about / picturing a priest telling the police about a child abuse umm   claim. 
Then I picturing like a convicted felon reporting a claim of child abuse.  
This is what this is allllllll about. 


 



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@Danielle
The argument is that forcing individuals to choose between the most sacrosanct part of their religious beliefs and imprisonment is what the Bill of Rights was entirely meant to avoid. 
First, I think you've raised a very good issue that deserves discussion. It s sensitive, and it is confusing, comparing attorney/client privilege and clergy/parishioner privilege, so far as the latter goes, because I think there is less legal precedent for the latter than for the former. But the idea of confession of sin to to clergy is a different set of circumstances than that of a client speaking to an attorney in confidence. The a/c condition is tightly related to the 5th amendment's self-incrimination clause. In the case of c/p, I'm admittedly fuzzy because, unless there is action on my part that has caused injury to another of my congregation, or my transgression was of a serious legal nature [murder, rape, abuse, grand theft, and such felonies] my confession is between me and God. My ecclesiastic leader [called a bishop in my case] is not a necessary advocate between me and God but for those exceptions. 
However, your argument above is thought-provoking because, although never having committed any of the excepted crimes I've noted above, I am aware that my bishop would seriously recommend that I give myself up to authorities for my crime, so his personal obligation is not as troubling because if I don't go to authorities, he will, or should, I should more correctly say, and I'm the worse off.

Personally, I am opposed to the declaration of clergy/parishioner privilege mainly because, as we are discussing matters of law, a subject with which an attorney, by profession, should be intimately aware, most clergy are not conversant in the law, and are, therefore, poor processors of "privileged" information. I don't think clergy should be held to the same privilege as had between a/c. As for the parishioner's resulting predicament, perhaps a person who claims a faithful lifestyle, but is not, should either walk away from religion and throw his options on the mercy of a/c privilege, or determine that he should not succumb to legally troubling situations by strict avoidance of breaking the law.
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@ethang5
The point is, and the question you dodged, is, "Why should they not be held culpable for their crimes if the person across from them is a lawyer?"

You answered the question, "Why is a lawyer allowed to keep their secrets?" But that is not the question I asked.

I said: I agree that people who confess their sins probably recognize those sins were wrong, but they should still be held culpable under the law if applicable. You responded, "Why should they not be held culpable if the person across from them is a lawyer??" I never said they should NOT be held culpable if the person across from them is a lawyer. So I don't know why you asked that question. 



This has nothing to do with why a criminal should be allowed to keep his crime a secret.

I never said a criminal should be "allowed to keep his crime a secret" either. 



Nope. So many Catholic priests allowed their collogues to continue raping and molesting little boys for decades because they to were homosexual pedophiles. Being regulated by societies standards would not have made a bit of difference.
That is completely wrong. The pedophiles would be in JAIL if they were reported, therefore unable to continue molesting children. 


Would the parent feel better if the crime never came to light because a lawyer is allowed to keep it secret and the criminal did nothing at all in terms of penance? Basically, you don't want priests to be able to do what lawyers already do, because you have an antireligious bias.

If you're saying you do not believe attorney-client privilege is a good thing, then that is an interesting but understandable position. Is that what you believe? 


My issue with you is the incoherent imbalance between lawyers and priests. Either no crime should be able to be kept secret, or Priests deserve the same protections as lawyers. As a father, telling me that my child's killer went free because he confessed to his lawyer instead of his priest would not be justice to me.

I completely understand your point why lawyers are not "above" priests and how it would not satisfy a parent to know lawyers were keeping secrets. But I wholly disagree that priests should be given the same protections as lawyers because lawyers are governed and regulated by objective standards in society, whereas religious officials get to make up their own rules. There is no oversight. Lawyers are disbarred and prosecuted if they violate ethical standards. 


I agree with people who place their religion above the state law. I do too. And I am willing and ready to suffer the cost of that belief. But FGM is not a recognized official religion that is entitled to protection by the state.

So why does it matter if their religion is not recognized by the state if they place their religion above the state? 
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@Deb-8-a-bull
So to confirm, you do not think it was criminally negligent for the Catholic Church to allow child molestation to continue by known pedophiles, correct?

It sounds like you don't think anyone (including teachers, therapists, social workers, pediatricians and cops) should have to report of abuse they know is going on. I strongly disagree but appreciate the straight forward answer. 
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@fauxlaw
Thank you for keeping an open mind. The idea for this topic came to me after watching a documentary about Scientology and hearing about a lot of abuses within their church. One of the people was talking about how during an auditing session (which is like a confessional), the person who was raping him admitted it to the auditor. Under Scientologist beliefs it is wrong to prosecute another Scientologist. They also believe that you are responsible for everything that happens to you in life. So rather then punish the rapist, the child victim was told it was his fault that he was getting molested and he had to apologize to his rapist and the rapist's wife for "taking him away from her" or something.

It sounds insane, but if you think about it one person's devout religious beliefs sound insane to others. I'm sure some Jehovah's Witness beliefs sound crazy to you or some Nation of Islam beliefs might sound crazy to you. So it can be hard to distinguish between religion/cult and I'm wondering if we would apply the same standards to our own faiths that we would to others. For instance most would see what Scientologists do as absurd, but their church allows this to continue and it's legal. It looks like a lot of people here believe it should be legal. 
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@Danielle
I absolutely agree that it is difficult to maintain an unbiased attitude about other religions, particularly when one, as I am, is a very active participant. However, I've found it much more satisfying, and comforting, to consider that religions should not be at each others' teeth, but respectful and honorable. I did a study, once, of how many religions today have a similar sentiment to the Golden Rule - do unto others... - and discovered that at least 30 of current worldwide religions from every continent, even some I would not have expected, embrace this moral code as a ubiquitous morality. We should celebrate our common agreements, and keep an open mind on all opposing views. 
Curiously enough, Scientology was not among the 30-odd religions discovered had this code. The closest to it I found within Scientology was: "To support true humanitarian endeavors in the fields of human rights," and  "To embrace the policy of equal justice for all." A bit dry and impersonal for my tastes.
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@Danielle
So you don't think anyone (including teachers, therapists, social workers, pediatricians and cops) should have to report of abuse they know is going on. I strongly disagree but appreciate the straight forward answer.
I can't speak for any of those people, but I know that Orthodox Priests are not supposed to reveal confessions, and to do so is an offense that is taken seriously enough to warrant a defrocking.

To confirm, you do not think it was criminally negligent for the Catholic Church to allow child molestation to continue by known pedophiles, correct?
If an orthodox priest were to be guilty of such an offense, they would be defrocked.


.
Right, the 5th amendment applies to not incriminating one's self. It doesn't have to do with reporting other people. But what does this have to do with my question about whether or not an auditor providing spiritual guidance qualifies as justice for rape?
Priests can not reveal things that were confessed to them. That is all I am saying.

Secular authority is not the domain of the church.
Do you think if someone commits a crime, it would be sufficient to confess to their deity/priest and not have the criminal justice system involved? If not, why not?


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@ethang5
Bolderdash. A heterosexual man would find any sexual contact with another male, regardless of age, repulsive. I call bs on this study.


You are misunderstanding. A man is heterosexual because he is attracted to women. These pedophiles are not considered heterosexual because they are not attracted to developed women and they are attracted to children of both sexes. 


More bs. Many, many otherwise "normal" adult guys would sleep with a physically mature 16 year old female if they could get away with it. It has nothing to do with regression or stress.

You misunderstand again. Attraction to a PHYSICALLY MATURE 16 year old does not qualify as pedophilia. You don't even understand the premise of the study to be able to disagree with it lol. 


Word play. The majority of pedophiles ARE men, and the majority of men ARE married to women. More deceptive word play. Male child molesters who molest boys ARE gay. We know most child molesters are not gay, because most men are not gay.

If most pedophiles are heterosexuals that are married to women, then it makes no sense whatsoever to say that GAYS in particular should be feared. 



Most child molesters are easy to figure out if the parents paid attention and weren't fooled by insipid political correctness that tries to cancel reality. Most children are never molested. Molesters look for children of poor, uneducated, uninterested parents with loopy progressive  ideas about parenting.

About 1 in 7 girls and 1 in 25 boys will be sexually abused before their 18th birthday (again it looks like gays are not the problem after all).  Apparently it's not easy to figure out since it is incredibly rare to hold people accountable for these crimes. It's true that sexual predators will seek out kids that seem troubled or more likely to be ignored, but it is unequivocally wrong to suggest that "loopy progressive ideas" about parenting have anything to do with it. You literally just made that up. Grooming is a common practice for child molesters where they form close bonds with the parents and kids in order to be trusted. 


I don't subscribe to PC nonsense, and I never allow it to cancel reality I see before my eyes.  Gay men are just like straight men. That is how I know them. 

So you agree that gay men are not more inclined to rape children than straight men since they are so alike. That's good. But note it is not PC nonsense to accept reality and not be a bigot. That's just called common sense and human decency. Stick with that. 
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@Mopac
You are glossing over the point. I  know priests can be defrocked for revealing confessions. The point is whether clergy should be exempt from reporting high crimes whereas other people MUST report them or be penalized. For instance a teacher, social worker, cop or therapist must report if they know a child is being sexually abused. Clergy do not have to report it and as a result often stay silent + allow the abuse to continue, which we have seen many times happen with the Catholic Church being the most popular example. 

I understand that under the law it is legal for clergy to not report abuse (only in 7 states do they have to report it). I'm asking if you agree with this standard. If you're saying yes, then recognize a situation like the one I described to fauxlaw is permissible under the law: 

The idea for this topic came to me after watching a documentary about Scientology and hearing about a lot of abuses within their church. One of the people was talking about how during an auditing session (which is like a confessional), the person who was raping him admitted it to the auditor. Under Scientologist beliefs it is wrong to prosecute another Scientologist. They also believe that you are responsible for everything that happens to you in life. So rather then punish the rapist, the child victim was told it was his fault that he was getting molested and he had to apologize to his rapist and the rapist's wife for "taking him away from her" or something.

This is the kind of stuff that happens without government regulation and oversight. I do not take religious freedom lightly even though I am not religious. I believe in religious freedom but it does have legal limitations. For instance I can't ingest psychedelic mushrooms and other drugs even though they're part of some religious rituals. We don't allow Mormons to legally marry more than one person even though their faith allows it. So the state does step in to make some exceptions. I'm just curious if people think this should be one of them. It's an interesting topic. 
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@Danielle
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I am certainly against government interference in my church. We aren't, for example, going to marry two people of the same sex. But really, we don't marry those outside of our church anyway.
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If you admit to a priest ya raped a kid , and he tells the cops.
Is exactly  the same as a priest making stuff up and telling the cops that you told him that you raped a kid.  
Same. 
Same. 

Orrrrr. 
If you tell a priest that you " did " a kid.  and he reports it to the cops. 
Then.
You go with.  You didn't tell that priest you raped a kid. 

They have no evidence. 
UNLESS THEY CAN FILM IT MAYBE.   

Clergy privilege 
Is if The cops belive priests. Anddddďd I can't see how they can. 

It's definitely not going to be allowed as evidence in a Cort of law. 
Is it? 

Look I'm going to use one of my two remaining passes for this. 
There's to much to it. 

PASS. 

Good game.
Good game. 

Ya start to think about things like. 
If a priest raped a kid. He can go to the cops and say that this kid said he was raped.  A mask.    

Then the track record of priests committing this crime ( which should not play a part ) but it will.,  they ain't the best judges in matter related to child abuse  

PS.
It's only illegal if you get caught. 


STOP IT. 
 


Danielle
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@Mopac
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It seems you agree that clergy should not have to report instances of child abuse and do not agree with the lawsuits finding the Catholic church negligent. That's fine; this is an opinion based dialog. But under current constitutional law, the government can and does impose restrictions on a religious belief or practice, as long as the law in question applies to everyone and does not target a specific religion or religious practice. The Supreme Court has consistently held that the right to free exercise of religion is not absolute. For example in Reynolds v. United States, the Court upheld the criminal conviction of Mormons engaging in polygamy even though that is part of their religious practices. 
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@Deb-8-a-bull
So to confirm, you do not think it was criminally negligent for the Catholic Church to allow child molestation to continue by known pedophiles, correct?



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Counselors are mandatory reporters and subject to confidentiality except when a crime or danger to self or others presents. I see not reason clergy should not fall under counselor. 
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@Danielle
The government claims to have a right, but it would be incredibly sscreligious for priests to reveal confessions.

It won't happen, and if the government tries to force us, we would not respect any right they claim to do so.

We have our lines in the sand. Church history does not look too kindly on the Sergianists in the Soviet Union.
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@Danielle
Besides that though, I believe that it is not a religious right to remain silent. That is a right everyone has.
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@Danielle
The problem with pedophilia in the RCC is among their clergy.

Certainly they should be prosecuted, and if their church is aware of these things, canonically they are supposed to depose those offending clergy.

We don't have this problem in the Orthodox Church, we don't tolerate this kind of behavior with clergy. There would be a riot.
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The government and church were once one entity and churches were safe spaces where one's rights and physical well being were protected from tyranny. To now keep a crime from the system is not protecting from the government but protecting the individual from punishment and the victim from recourse.  The kings aren't cutting off heads anymore. 
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@Mopac
 Orthodox Church, we don't tolerate this kind of behavior with clergy. There would be a riot.
Abuse occurs in all kinds of institutions and relationships.  Religious organizations have a tendency to create an atmosphere where a lot of it is kept secret. There are different denominations of Orthodox churches so I don't know which one you belong to, but if you look it up I'm sure you'll find it has happened. If your church does a better job at dealing with it than others -- good. But we must recognize abuse happens in other places. 

Once again, I understand it is considered sacrilegious to reveal confessions. But not every religious belief is recognized or validated by law. I'm asking if you think this particular religious belief (the sanctity of confession) is worth upholding at the expense of children being molested. You seem to be answering yes, you believe it is more important to protect religious rights to privacy and ritual than it is to protect the victims of rape. I understand your point. I disagree but I understand. 
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@Danielle
There are no denominations in orthodoxy, denominationalism is a protestant heresy. A denomination is by definition not catholic. When there are serious moral violations in the church, those responsible are dealt with. I have seen it happen. I know of those who held high positions who were found guilty of these sort of thimgs, and were deposed, even excommunicated.

I am not talking about anything other than the sacrament of confession. If someone confesses a really bad sin, they can be excommunicated. If a priest confesses to molestation or something, they would be deposed. There are ways we deal with these.things internally.

But to equate this with "protecting religious rights to privacy and ritual over protecting the victims of rape" is insulting and has nothing to dk with what I am saying.

No secular law can prop itself over our sacraments. To do so is a declaration of war against our faith. Confession is a sacred thing.

But besides that, I stand on this not beimg a religious issue. No one should be forced to say anything they don't want to. If someone sees a murder, and would prefer to hide and keep it to themselves, that is their business.

But in particular when it comes to our faith, the sacrament of confession cannot be overturned by secular laws. If secular laws encroach on the church, they are to be disobeyed. And on that note, making laws requiring people to snitch on others is unenforceable to begin with.