Does the "mind" even exist?

Author: Sum1hugme

Posts

Total: 65
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@ebuc
I would disagree and say that concepts exist only because there are animals like us with brains to construct them and a language to codify them for information transmission. Your claim seems like a platonic idea of "forms" that exist independently of the individual's perception of their expressions.

  Can you demonstrate how a concept can exist without an animal with a brain and language to construct and codify them?
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Sum1hugme

  Can you demonstrate how a concept can exist without an animal with a brain and language to construct and codify them?
To be clear,  you are not able to repeat back to me, the  three, and only three, primary Cosmic existence categories, that, eternally exist.

Here  is a couple of ways to "demonstrate" that they exist independent of our ability to access the Metaphysical-1 { spirit-1 } existence.

1} did we humans  invent them?  No?  yet they existence as what they are, Metaphysical-1 { spirit-1 } mind/intellect/concepts i.e. before humans existed, did they exist? Yes.  So humans discovered what already exists eternally,

2} consider eternally existent truths, aka  cosmically absolute principles/laws ex they has eternally existed, only five regular/symmetrical and convex, ---platonic mean Plato discovered them--- polyhedra. Humans did not create or invent this truths.  They were truths eternally long before humans on Earth existed.

So can now repeat back to me 1, 2 and three Cosmically primary catagories?  No? I didnt think so.  The problem is ego.  When you can place you ego to the side and use some rational, logical common sense, you find those three in message #30.   Use your mind accessing abilities to winnow them out from the text presented to you.
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@ebuc
You haven't laid out three categories of existence, or explained what that even means. I don't accept your cosmic trinary outline because you haven't demonstrated it to have any substance. You're arguing that concepts exist without a person to build them, but that's simply wrong. Notions and ideas necessarily have to be invented by a thinking thing. Animals like us, with brains and language. Ideas do not exist out there to be discovered. You aren't going to find the Marine Corps "models of competition" (MCDP 1-4), or Einstein's equations behind a rock somewhere. They have to be invented. 

Laws of nature are properties of matter that we observe consistently and codify into language. Matter interacts, but these interactions are not a "concept" until they have been abstracted and codified.


  



ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
You haven't laid out three categories of existence,
False and this is your ego speaking. Sad :--(

or explained what that even means. I don't accept your cosmic trinary outline because you haven't demonstrated it to have any substance.
Dude you need to us a dictionary and understand what the word "substance" means.  A "substance" is an occupied Space, concepts are not.  Your confused and that is partly because of your ego blockage to rational, logical common sense truths.

You're arguing that concepts exist without a person to build them, but that's simply wrong.
No, your wrong. Truths exists eternally irrespective of humans existence.  Your confused and that is partly because of your ego blockages.

Notions and ideas necessarily have to be invented by a thinking thing.
False. Words are invented to convey what Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts, occupied Space and truly non-occuipied Space are.
Your still confuse and that is partly because of your ego blockages to truth.

Animals like us, with brains and language. Ideas do not exist out there to be discovered.
Yes concepts of mind intellect do exist eteranally and humans discovery them, not  invent them. Place your ego to the side and approach truth.

You aren't going to find the Marine Corps "models of competition" (MCDP 1-4), or Einstein's equations behind a rock somewhere. They have to be invented. 
I never said "behind a rock some where". So you create a false narrative becuase your ego cannot handle the truth as I presented and not as you false narrative presents it as tho I stated it. Place the ego to the side and approach truth.

Laws of nature are properties of matter that we observe consistently and codify into language. Matter interacts, but these interactions are not a "concept" until they have been abstracted and codified.
I never  said that "interactions" are a concept. More false narrative on your part because of your ego. This is some common for what people with ego blockages to truth do.  Please repeat the three cosmically primary catagories when your ready to place you ego to the side and approach truth.
 
It is not going to happen with you --as is case with most--- because it is harder for the human to place the ego aside, than it is for a human to go through the eye of needle. 

Ego is the greatest danger facing humanity and in the end, it is a collective set of human ego's that will lead to the resultant, end-date-for-humanity  on Earth.  I think my last prognostication  approximate end-date is the in and around the year 2232. See LINK

  


The_Meliorist
The_Meliorist's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 27
0
0
6
The_Meliorist's avatar
The_Meliorist
0
0
6
-->
@Sum1hugme
it seems like Rene Descartes's argument applies to both the brain and a mind.

also, it seems very strange (and unnecessary) to concede that the brain exists, and the mind doesn't. Are you saying that you not aware of the world and your experiences, or  think, and feel; and have the faculty of consciousness and thought?

are you saying you don't think? but if you think, therefore, you are. 

Also, it seems like the "brain" definition and the "mind" definition are saying the same thing, but with different words, therefore, the brain is the mind.




zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@The_Meliorist
The brain is a tangible organic computing device, and the mind is the intangible result of the processes thereof.

Nonetheless......As far as we are able to know the processes and the result are real....And therefore existent.
The_Meliorist
The_Meliorist's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 27
0
0
6
The_Meliorist's avatar
The_Meliorist
0
0
6
-->
@zedvictor4
so is the mind grounded in physical realty, or is it part of something higher (like the supernatural), on your view?

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,596
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@The_Meliorist

Have you ever been put under by general anesthesia? So the mind is grounded in physical realty.

ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@zedvictor4
Nonetheless......As far as we are able to know the processes and the result are real....And therefore existent.
Three primary catagories of "existence". Can you repeat them? Can you understand and/or comprehend them?

A brain [ nervous system } is an occupied space, and concept is not and occupied space.

A brain has mass, a concepts have no mass.

A brain has color and concept has no color.

A brain has a temperature, a concept has no temperature.

A brain has properties mentioned above and more, where as concepts have none of those properties I've mentioned or others I did not present.

Those who attempt to deny truth of Metaphysical-1, { spirit-1 } mind/intellect/concepts existence, need to begin by checking in with a few differrent dictionarys definitions of mind, intellect, concepts and Metaphysical

The truth --- Metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concept--- exists for what they are , and that is not and occupied nor are they the truly non-occupied space.

True non-occupied space is what the finite, occupied space Unvierse may expand outward into, or contractively recede inward away from.

Occupied space Universe does not expand into Metaphyscial-1, mind/intellect/concepts nor does in contract inward away from Metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concepts.  
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,596
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@ebuc
In the most recent study,  Brick Johnstone, professor of health psychology in the School of Health Professions studied 20 people with traumatic brain injuries affecting the right parietal lobe, the area of the brain situated a few inches above the right ear. He surveyed participants on characteristics of spirituality, such as how close they felt to a higher power and if they felt their lives were part of a divine plan. He found that the participants with more significant injury to their right parietal lobe showed an increased feeling of closeness to a higher power.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@FLRW
......characteristics of spirituality, such as how close they felt to a higher power and if they felt their lives were part of a divine plan. He found that the participants with more ...... increased feeling of closeness to a higher power.
It is not clarified why you presented this text to me ergo I have to speculate why.

Perhaps you believe my use of the word 'spirit-1' is directly related to your words "spirituality" "higher Power" and "divine plane".

I think such a belief is a lack of misunderstanding on your part, even tho their is some distant relationships

Metaphysical-1{ spirit-1 } mind/intellect/concepts

--------------conceptual line-of-demarcation------------------

Metaphysical-2 macro-infinite non-occupied Space,

Physical { spirit-2 } fermions, bosons, hybrid set and collection thereof,

Metaphysical-3 { spirit-3 } Gravity (  )

Metaphysical-4 { spirit-4 } Dark Energy )(

There is no "higher power", "divine plan" spirituality" as related to any of my presented set of five Metaphysicals spirit definitions or the physical spirit-2.

Unless your attempting to associate Cosmically Absolute laws/principles with your presentation. Or synergetic principles or something else along those lines. I dunno without more clarity from you.




zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@The_Meliorist
Very good question.

I would suggest that the acquisition, storage and manipulation and output of data all requires a physiological mechanism and process.

Whether or not human data output, solely as thoughts and not involving chemical processes, can transcend the body, rather than remain a wholly internal physiological process, remains a moot point and a question that I have no answer to.


ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@The_Meliorist
....is the mind grounded in physical realty, or is it part of something higher (like the supernatural), on your view?
No, it is not "grounded".   Grounding is the return path to Earth fro AC electric lines.
In DC is the negative post that acts as grounding to complete the circuit.

Nervous system { brain } is a complex consciousness pathway to access to discovery of  Metaphysical-1 { spirit-1 } mind/intellect/concepts.

Woman { Xx } being the most complex consciousness ---in general--  of  Universe that we know to exist.

Here is another way to get our heads around Metaphyiscal-1, mind/intellect/concepts not a "grounding" phenomena.

Extend your occupied space arm out in front of you. Move the arm back and forth and while doing so, raise and lower your hand. We will have created a geometrical wave pattern.  Now stop moving your arm ergo you hand. 

1} the occupied space arm and  hand still exists out in front of us,

2} the Metaphysical-1 mind/intlellect/conceptual sine-wave pattern is no longer existent out in front of us, yet we still know via recall { memory } what a geometrical, sine-wave pattern is.

So some will counter and say the geometrical sine-wave pattern is a physical, occupied space reality.  Even tho once our arm the sine-wave did exist out in front of us were the hand was before and now still exists.

Think of a sine-wave pattern of 10 dots that make to half of one hump and peak of the sine-wave, and  another 10 dots on paper. Next image-ine the dots are now one ant in 20  differrent galaxies that in approximately the same plane.  So we have to  have our viewpoint zoomed way way outward to  winnow out this sine-wave pattern, even tho some would say, that were grasping at straws to still call such a large viewpoint a valid sine-wave pattern.


/\/\/\/\/\/ = Euclidean { straight line } is the same topology of a curved sine-wave. Or lets us try the following minimal set to define assess { winnow-out } a sine-wave pattern

".................*.........*..........*............*........*..........
......................*...........*..........*..........*........."

Next fill in the  via * your memory as mind in the following set

".....................................................................................................
...................................................................................................."

Now do the same with follow set of no dots of any kind.

"                                                       
                                                                             "

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,596
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius

ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4

......"essentially, electricity seeks to return its electrons to "ground"—that is, to discharge its negative energy and return to equilibrium. Normally, the current returns to ground through the neutral wires in the electrical system. But should some breakdown of the pathway occur, the hot current may instead flow through other materials, such as wood framing, metal pipes, or flammable materials in your home."

So push-pull phenomena comes into play with the above.  There is now evidence that electrical path leaves Earth to meet the electric current in atmosphere.

Alll of the above has properties of charge. Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts have no properties of charge.

Memory recall is the brain attempting to re-image what came into its nervous system via visual, tactile or auditory pathways of experience.

The concept of triangle exists and recalled via humans memory of the experience of seeing, feeling hearing a triangular set of relationships.

The further away in time of the initial experince the more distorted our memories are of the specifics of any triangle.

What does remain, is the pattern of angles /\ or Y or /\/      A single angle my be image-ine as a incoming trajectory and outgoing trajectory.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@FLRW
#38....Good point.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
I think about something ---occupied space experience--- with and occupied space something   --aka the brain-nervous system--- ergo, I exist as a complex animal, that, has access to complex relationships between my thoughts/concepts, that, appear to me as a mindful pattern of related concepts, that, I then create pattern of sounds, that, we label as language, to communicate those complex thoughts/concepts to self, therefor in review of, and to others,  in hopes of feedback.

*  * = animal

* i * = more complex animal

* i * = most complex generalized set as woman, that, more often has more bilateral action  between the bilateral hemi-spheres of the brain

Women are attractor { --->Inward<---  }} men are pushers { <---outward---> }. 

Push-Pull phenomena are basic fundamentals of the only perpetual motion machine, that, we label as Universe.

Humans conceptualize themselves outside of finite conceptual Universe, as if they are a God, looking back in on the finite conceptual Universe, that, that they  hold in their finite, conceptual hands.

Humans conceptually organize their experiences in hierarchical outlines of pattern. 

At the top, we find the Cosmic Trinary Outline only has three primary categories and all other existence is a subset of those three.  This appears to me to be one set of finite truths, with larger set of finite truths, that, humans can winnow out from their experiences of a finite, occupied space Universe.

There exists only three primary directions. In, out and around

All aspects of bilateral-ism has a third correlated aspect, or resultant of bilateral.  Two eyes triangulate as point at some distance ergo depth perception viewpoint *v*

Push-pull results in precession ---most often at 90 degrees-- and other resultants.

Brain = complex consciousness { awareness, other-ness, twoness at minimum }

Mind = most complex resultant of brain { Cosmic Trinary Outline }
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@ebuc
"False and this is your ego speaking. Sad :--("
 "Your confused and that is partly because of your ego blockage to rational, logical common sense truths."
"Your confused and that is partly because of your ego blockages."
"Your still confuse and that is partly because of your ego blockages to truth."
"Place your ego to the side and approach truth."
"Place the ego to the side and approach truth."
" More false narrative on your part because of your ego. This is some common for what people with ego blockages to truth do.  Please repeat the three cosmically primary catagories when your ready to place you ego to the side and approach truth."
" because it is harder for the human to place the ego aside, than it is for a human to go through the eye of needle."
"Ego is the greatest danger facing humanity and in the end, it is a collective set of human ego's that will lead to the resultant, end-date-for-humanity  on Earth."
  Thank you for the diagnosis lol. Now how about you set your ego aside and provide some proof of your assertions?

"Dude you need to us a dictionary and understand what the word "substance" means.  A "substance" is an occupied Space, concepts are not."
    I'm assuming you're using this definition?

Substance - A particular kind of matter with uniform properties [1].

  Can you prove that a concept is not a physical phenomenon, since we know that thoughts correspond to brain activity?

"This work underscores the importance of the prefrontal and orbitofrontal cortices in moral judgment and in the automatic attribution of morality to social events.[2]"



Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@The_Meliorist

"it seems like Rene Descartes's argument applies to both the brain and a mind.

also, it seems very strange (and unnecessary) to concede that the brain exists, and the mind doesn't. Are you saying that you not aware of the world and your experiences, or  think, and feel; and have the faculty of consciousness and thought?

are you saying you don't think? but if you think, therefore, you are. 

Also, it seems like the "brain" definition and the "mind" definition are saying the same thing, but with different words, therefore, the brain is the mind."
  It just seems like the "mind" isn't separate from the brain. I do think we have the faculty of a heightened awareness, or "aware of  being aware" and that we think and feel, but it seems like this is a product of the physical brain, and not a non-physical "mind". This would leave the concept of "mind" as superfluous to simply "brain activity".
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Sum1hugme
Thank you for the diagnosis lol. Now how about you set your ego aside and provide some proof of your assertions?
Your welcome.  Where is my ego the problem as compared to where you ego is the problem  --in error--  Ive clearly laid out?


Substance - A particular kind of matter with uniform properties [1].
Fermionic "Matter'= occupied space

Bosonic force = occupied space and both of these are old news to those who seek truth

Can you prove that a concept is not a physical phenomenon, since we know that thoughts correspond to brain activity?

abstract = ...'existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.'......LINK ergo Metaphysical-1 { spirit-1 } And again, this old news to those who seek truth.  Is 'definition of 'abtract' a "proof"? No, it is a common enough agreement to be valid in at least one dictionary --if not may others--.

If you want proofs then it is best to stick with mathematics as people in philsophical circles go way off into its all an illusion of brain the stuff that occurs outside of the brain and not the actually the stuff taking place outside the brain, so on and so on.

This why some people went into mathematics, cause there exists proofs for this or that conclusion, instead of all other philosophical based conclusions.





68 days later

Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
There is nothing in the laws of physics that work on large scales, on huge chunks of matter or objects as a whole. The laws of physics work on each individual particle, and the large scale effects only occur because of the massive amounts of smaller particles. Thus, the brain doesn't have any property not coming from its individual parts and their interactions.

The brain is just a word drawing an arbitrary line, diving some atoms from the rest of the world. Physically speaking, on the fundamental quantum level, there is no difference between a brain and a rock. The division only makes sense from a large scale perspective. The brain is made up of the same quarks and elementary particles, but their structure perpetuates a specific set of movements. Biology is merely the perpetual motion and replication of specific structures -- whose building blocks are no different from the building blocks of rocks and alike. It makes no sense to claim that the movement or reactions of individual particles in the brain are different from those in a rock. The same particles and interactions on a fundamental scale happen both in the brain and the rock. 

Logically speaking,
IF the brain is a mind due to the interactions of smaller physical particles, THEN a rock is just a different mind
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Benjamin
Just because two things share the quality of being composed of atoms does not mean that they share the quality of having thoughts. You're making a composition fallacy.
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
If what I said was a fallacy, it would be a fallacy of division.

I didn't say that a rock can think. I said that if the interaction of elementary particles in the brain makes it a mind, then anything with those interactions has a mind-ish.

My point is, the mind isn't simply the interaction of particles. 
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Benjamin
At one level of analysis, it is particle interactions. At a different level of analysis, it is system interactions. But it doesn't appear that the reduction actually ever goes to anything non-physical.
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
Exactly. Whatever is the nature of our universe, it is going to be physical. If the brain is the mind, then that means that the mind is ultimately physical. But if that is the case, then the mind is the brain. But our experience of reality isn't physical, there is no particle called "experience" that is created in the brain. Thus, the brain and the mind can't be the same, lest one wants to argue that the position of atoms in the brain is somehow the secret structure capable of summoning experience. 

One thing is for sure, the brain has no non-physical properties. The mind, on the other hand, could potentially have that. We don't know, but it makes no sense to equate them.
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Benjamin
Well our experience can be manipulated by changing the physiology of the brain. How do you account for that?
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@Benjamin
Your consciousness is purely the emergent properties of physical properties- your appeal to qualia is uncompelling - there is no actual evidence that qualia actually exists - it is simply the preception of creatures with complex brain chemistry, simple as that. 
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 98
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@Theweakeredge
Well, we know for a fact that our own qualia exist. I can't be sure about yours anyway, but I know that I exist and have qualia.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,596
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Benjamin
Anesthesia is proof of Theweakeredge's statement that  consciousness is purely the emergent properties of physical properties.
Many anaesthetics are thought to work by making it harder for neurons to fire, but this can have different effects on brain function, depending on which neurons are being blocked. So brain-imaging techniques such as functional MRI scanning, which tracks changes in blood flow to different areas of the brain, are being used to see which regions of the brain are affected by anaesthetics. Such studies have been successful in revealing several areas that are deactivated by most anaesthetics. Unfortunately, so many regions have been implicated it is hard to know which, if any, are the root cause of loss of consciousness.
I have had an operation under general anaesthetic to remove my gallbladder.  After the operation I awoke with no memory of what had passed between the feeling of mild wooziness and waking up in a different room. I was told that the anaesthetic would make me feel drowsy, I would go to sleep, and when I woke up it would all be over.
What they didn’t tell me was how the drugs would send me into the realms of oblivion. They couldn’t. The truth is, no one knows.




RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@FLRW
I'll rebuke you like this:

Your closing sentence concedes that for all you know you were merely unplugged from the Matrix for that period of time inside it.