I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.

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#121

Stephen

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Stephen

12.20.2020 08:22AM

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@Castin

I am not someone who believes in scripture.

Well this is where many here misunderstand me, and do so purposely and out of sheer bloody-mindedness for argument,sake. I do believe these scriptures I just do not accept them in the state that they have come down to us. I am not religious but believe that Jesus existed. I also believe that he would have been appalled that a whole new religious ideology had sprang up in his name. I believe that he was king come to regain a throne that he (as did others) believed was rightfully his.

The Christian invention of literal "miracles" that Jesus was said to have performed can all be explained. Water into wine for instance was an initiation ceremony. Think ` silk purse from a sows ear` in todays language.

Seriously, ask yourself, what kind of god would waste his maiden "miracle" on making sure the " wedding" guests got drunk? Who was Jesus and his mother to all of a sudden take over catering arrangements at a "wedding" that wasn't even his own(?) and when there was a perfectly good and capable steward(master of ceremonies) on hand to send out for more refreshments? No this was no miracle. It was an initiation ceremony en masse. As was the feeding of the 4-5 thousand.

If this was indeed miracle ,why would Jesus rebuke his mother and tell her "his time had not yet come" but then perform it anyway? Why didn't the steward or anyone else even comment on this "miracle " .

Why cure just a few leapers when this god man could have eradicated all of leprosy from the face of the earth? Because this too was an initiation to a higher degree in the Jesus movement. As was making the "blind" see.

I ask questions that Christians don`t , won't or cannot think to ask for themselves and questions that they certainly don`t like to be confronted with.

John the baptist: "the greatest prophet that ever lived" according to Jesus himself and the forerunner paving the way for Jesus, for reasons known only to himself suddenly believed that Jesus was supposed to be baptising him!?? - after all those years apparently doing nothing but preaching about "the one to come" And when that little bit of confusion was sorted and after John heard the voice of god himself saying this "is my son", John is arrested and has serious doubt as to who Jesus is and sends his own disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one prophesised about! "Are you the one to come after me or shall we wait for another?" seriously !!! didn't he know?? If John the greatest prophet that ever lived had his doubts, then what chance did Jew public and the lost sheep of Israel have of believing it?

Why didn't Jesus raise John "the greatest prophet" from the dead as he did his mere friend Lazarus? Why didn't Jesus shed a single tear on hearing about John's death as he did for his friend Lazarus?

If my probing questions, my criticizing and scrutinizing of these scriptures happen to offend or upset Christians , I am not sorry. They should be able to defend them with proof and logic and not by inserting words into the text that are not there and by putting words into the mouths of the biblical authors and characters in poor attempts to explain away these biblical anomalies.

Christian always turn nasty and show their true colours when confronted with these types of questions.

I can also see that Christians view Jesus's sacrifice as a miracle

And I see how they have been lied to and have been lying to themselves for millennia.

I have found that the OT is more truthful and honest than the New. I take the Old Testament as an history of one single bloodline.. When it is scrutinized we can see that this "Lord" had only the interests and concerns of one single family and one single bloodline in mind.

I answered your question here, by the way >>#42

#122

Reece101

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Reece101

12.20.2020 11:21AM

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@ethang5

@Stephen

How does the old saying go? God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.

Seems like God has a psychological complex or it’s just bronze/Iron age peasants projecting their wishes onto a god figure.

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#123

Stephen

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Stephen

12.20.2020 11:40AM

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@Reece101

How does the old saying go? God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.
Seems like God has a psychological complex or it’s just bronze/Iron age peasants projecting onto a god figure.

I was trying to avoid that obvious glaring trait, Reece 101. A trait that is never and has never quite been explained , has it. And certainly won't be without invoking the supernatural.

#124

ethang5

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12.20.2020 04:58PM

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@Reece101

How does the old saying go? God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.
Seems like God has a psychological complex or it’s just bronze/Iron age peasants projecting their wishes onto a god figure.

Or that you are ignorant of Christian doctrine and wish us to know you are ignorant. Either or.

#125

ethang5

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ethang5

12.20.2020 04:59PM

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@Castin

I think original sin is an unjust doctrine.

I agree. But I agree also because the bible says it is untrue and unjust.

#126

Reece101

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12.20.2020 08:30PM

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@ethang5

How am I ignorant in this regard? Do you conduct any introspection?

#127

Tradesecret

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12.20.2020 09:29PM

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@Stephen

Seriously, ask yourself, what kind of god would waste his maiden "miracle" on making sure the " wedding" guests got drunk?

I take the view that this first wedding miracle was instrumental in demonstrating that God was prepared sensitively to the culture of the people he was coming to love.

The West is quite culturally different to the Middle East. The Middle East is a shame honor culture. The West is not. The shame inherent in not being able to provide for guests in that culture is deeply imbedded in a way that ought not be discounted. That Jesus would initiate his first miracle at a wedding in such a fashion is a remarkable and brilliant stroke of genius.

That you have turned it into a "wasted" maiden miracle on account of some getting drunk - does not surprise me. Yet your comment reveals only that you are ignorant of other cultures, especially the one you seem to have latched onto.

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#128

Stephen

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Stephen

12.21.2020 06:19AM

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@Tradesecret

Seriously, ask yourself, what kind of god would waste his maiden "miracle" on making sure the " wedding" guests got drunk?
I take the view.

And I don't.

#129

ethang5

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ethang5

12.21.2020 09:45AM

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@Reece101

Do you conduct any introspection?

I didn't need to. This isn't guessing or based on feelings. This fact.

How am I ignorant in this regard?

Allow me to show you. You said...

God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.

The father is not the son, who in turn is not the Holy Spirit, who in turn is not the Father. God did not "sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself". The only people who say this are either dishonest people trying to take a shot at Christianity, or ignorants who actually are dense enough to think they have found a logical error after billions of people missed it for 2,000 years.

And God is not saving us from Himself. That is like a little child telling the parent they could just overlook that he's taking drugs and skip the correction and the problem would disappear. Either dishonest or ignorant.

Then you reached a psychological conclusion based on the stupidity you posted!

Seems like God has a psychological complex or it’s just bronze/Iron age peasants projecting their wishes onto a god figure.

My guess, based on years of experience with militant online atheists, is that you are not ignorant, you're dishonest. You know your comment is not a true representation of Christian doctrine, but you will throw away your integrity for a cheap shot at God. But I could be wrong.

#130

Reece101

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12.21.2020 11:28AM

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@ethang5

The father is not the son, who in turn is not the Holy Spirit, who in turn is not the Father. God did not "sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself"

Isn’t God synonymous with the trinity? God is the amalgamation of the three, correct?

The only people who say this are either dishonest people trying to take a shot at Christianity, or ignorants who actually are dense enough to think they have found a logical error after billions of people missed it for 2,000 years.

Don’t worry, there are far older religions with logical errors which are still around today.

I assume you would agree with that. If so, why am I not surprised?

And God is not saving us from Himself. That is like a little child telling the parent they could just overlook that he's taking drugs and skip the correction and the problem would disappear. Either dishonest or ignorant

With absolute power comes absolute responsibility. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, correct?

When a tragedy happens all you need to tell yourself is, it’s part of God’s plan.

To be fair it doesn’t have to be a tragedy, yet it becomes meaningless all the same.

My guess, based on years of experience with militant online atheists, is that you are not ignorant, you're dishonest. You know your comment is not a true representation of Christian doctrine, but you will throw away your integrity for a cheap shot at God. But I could be wrong.

If God exists, he would not care in the slightest. Well I guess it depends. OT God was pretty troubled relative to the NT.

#131

Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

12.21.2020 11:34AM

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@Stephen

LOL!

Of course you don't!

You have just expressed complete bewilderment that God would commence his miracles at a wedding.

You confessed ignorance however is not a hinderance from anyone else expressing an opinion.

LOL! - @ Stephen.

No wonder you have to ask so many questions.

#132

ethang5

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ethang5

12.21.2020 02:01PM

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@Reece101

Isn’t God synonymous with the trinity? God is the amalgamation of the three, correct?

I don't know what you mean, but your comment was wrong. Each person in the trinity is not ⅓ God, with the 3 adding up to one. Each person in the trinity is fully God in Hinself., yet they make one God.

Don’t worry, there are far older religions with logical errors which are still around today.
I assume you would agree with that. If so, why am I not surprised?

I don't agree with that. And you have not shown a logical error. The only thing you've shown so far is they you either don't know of what you speak, or you don't care if you lie. Either way you are less than logical.

With absolute power comes absolute responsibility.

Is that a truth you created?

God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, correct?

And immutable and eternal.

When a tragedy happens all you need to tell yourself is, it’s part of God’s plan.

Why would I lie to myself when tragedy happens? Oh, ah, you want me to take on your half-baked beliefs. No thanks.

To be fair it doesn’t have to be a tragedy, yet it becomes meaningless all the same.

My. Life has meaning. It probably because I don't substitute my beliefs for reality. If you did that, you might find you life less meaningless.

If God exists, he would not care in the slightest.

Tell us more O great oracle of God.

Well I guess it depends.

On your magic 8 ball? How the tea leaves fell? The pain in your joints?

OT God was pretty troubled relative to the NT.

That probably made sense to you inside your head. But your comment was still wrong. Throw up a million tangents and you'll still be wrong.

#133

ethang5

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ethang5

12.21.2020 02:03PM

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@Tradesecret

You confessed ignorance however is not a hinderance from anyone else expressing an opinion.

- To Stephen

He thinks it should be.

#134

Reece101

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Reece101

12.21.2020 09:39PM

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@ethang5

I don't know what you mean, but your comment was wrong. Each person in the trinity is not ⅓ God, with the 3 adding up to one. Each person in the trinity is fully God in Hinself., yet they make one God.

Alright we’re now on the same page. So where’s the problem with “God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.“?

I don't agree with that. And you have not shown a logical error. The only thing you've shown so far is they you either don't know of what you speak, or you don't care if you lie. Either way you are less than logical.

Wait, you don’t agree there are older religions (than christianity) with logical errors which still have followers? Can you give reason?

Is that a truth you created?

No, it’s self-evident. When an entity has absolute power (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence) it’s absolutely responsible.

You don’t agree? Why?

Why would I lie to myself when tragedy happens? Oh, ah, you want me to take on your half-baked beliefs. No thanks.

My. Life has meaning. It probably because I don't substitute my beliefs for reality. If you did that, you might find you life less meaningless.

Don’t conflate meaning for meaningfulness.

Yeah, If I didn’t have the dragon in my garage telling me not to murder, I would go on a killing spree.

That’s the same sentiment said by many abrahamic believers in debates. If that were true, they should keep believing.

But sadly I think it’s not the case. I reckon it’s them just throwing a tantrum.

That probably made sense to you inside your head. But your comment was still wrong. Throw up a million tangents and you'll still be wrong.

Can you please try giving reason for your beliefs instead of just saying I’m wrong.

#135

ethang5

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ethang5

12.22.2020 02:39AM

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@Reece101

Alright we’re now on the same page. So where’s the problem with “God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself.“?

God didn't sacrifice Himself TO Himself. Maybe you should explain that because it isn't in the bible. Further, God didn't save us FROM Himself. Maybe you should tell us where you got that because it isn't in the bible.

I don't agree with that. And you have not shown a logical error. The only thing you've shown so far is they you either don't know of what you speak, or you don't care if you lie. Either way you are less than logical.

Wait, you don’t agree there are older religions (than christianity) with logical errors which still have followers? Can you give reason?

Christianity begins with the creation of the universe. What's your religion that's older than that? You got a pre-big bang religion? Every other religion has logical errors.

Is that a truth you created?

No, it’s self-evident. When an entity has absolute power (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence) it’s absolutely responsible.
You don’t agree? Why?

Because I don't see how absolute responsibility can be self evident. I think it also depends on what this being with absolute power does that makes it absolutely responsible or not. It isn't absolutely responsible simply by existing.

Why would I lie to myself when tragedy happens? Oh, ah, you want me to take on your half-baked beliefs. No thanks.

My Life has meaning. It probably because I don't substitute my beliefs for reality. If you did that, you might find you life less meaningless.

Don’t conflate meaning for meaningfulness.

I said nothing about meaningfulness. I did not even use the word.

Yeah, If I didn’t have the dragon in my garage telling me not to murder, I would go on a killing spree.

Who would feed your dragon after you were arrested and jailed? Your dragon has vested interests in you not going on a killing spree.

That’s the same sentiment said by many abrahamic believers in debates. If that were true, they should keep believing. But sadly I think it’s not the case. I reckon it’s them just throwing a tantrum.

That probably made sense to you inside your head. But your comment was still wrong. Throw up a million tangents and you'll still be wrong. Now you're on dragons and killing sprees! You are aware that we cannot see inside your head right?

Can you please try giving reason for your beliefs instead of just saying I’m wrong.

All you've done is given us your beliefs, and then confuse them for mine.

Christians do not believe they would be immoral without God. We say morality would have no meaning without God. You seem not to be able to see the difference.

It's obvious that what you think is Christianity, is instead some gibberish you saw on some atheist website. We are currently correcting your beliefs, not stating mine.

If you have a question about my beliefs, just ask, instead of giving me the current militant atheist talking points about it and expecting me to know what you're blathering about.

#136

Reece101

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12.22.2020 05:30AM

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@ethang5

It looks like it would be better if we stay on one topic because you lack basic reasoning.

You might as well have just kept saying I’m wrong.

If you have a question about my beliefs, just ask, instead of giving me the current militant atheist talking points about it and expecting me to know what you're blathering about.

Alright, I’m going to do you one better. I’m going to adopt a more logically consistent world view of yours and argue for it against yours.

You would probably agree and accept what I’m about to say in different circumstances.

Are you ready?

Here we go:

Christianity begins with the creation of the universe. What's your religion that's older than that? You got a pre-big bang religion? Every other religion has logical errors.

Hasn’t Christianity always existed because God has always existed?

So yes, I’m capable of fully understanding what people believe better than they do themselves.

#137

Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

12.22.2020 05:35AM

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@Reece101

Christianity has not always existed.

#138

Reece101

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Reece101

12.22.2020 05:42AM

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@Tradesecret

Fully read what I said.

#139

Tradesecret

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12.22.2020 06:22AM

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@Reece101

I did

#140

Reece101

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12.22.2020 07:10AM

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@Tradesecret

Well tell that to ethang5. Spacetime came into existence with the universe.

Keep in mind I’m trying to make the most coherent argument I can with ethang5’s belief in the existence of God.

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#141

Stephen

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Stephen

12.22.2020 07:20AM

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@Tradesecret

Christianity has not always existed.

That's right, Reverend. There wasn't a Christian in sight in Jesus time. Jesus had a religious ideology of his own (that he and others believed he was head of) and he would have been appalled that a completely alien religious ideology had sprang up in his name.

#142

ethang5

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ethang5

12.22.2020 08:41AM

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@Reece101

It looks like it would be better if we stay on one topic because you lack basic reasoning.

I stayed on topic Cletus. You started yammering about dragons and killing sprees.

You might as well have just kept saying I’m wrong.

There was no need, you remained wrong.

If you have a question about my beliefs, just ask, instead of giving me the current militant atheist talking points about it and expecting me to know what you're blathering about.

Alright, I’m going to do you one better. I’m going to adopt a more logically consistent world view of yours and argue for it against yours.

??? Do you proof read your posts?

You would probably agree and accept what I’m about to say in different circumstances.
Are you ready?

Sure.

Here we go:

Christianity begins with the creation of the universe. What's your religion that's older than that? You got a pre-big bang religion? Every other religion has logical errors.

Hasn’t Christianity always existed because God has always existed?

No. God is not synonymous with religion. God is superior to, and precedes, all.

So yes, I’m capable of fully understanding what people believe better than they do themselves.

Lol!! OK Jasper. Your IQ must be sky high.

#143

zedvictor4

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12.22.2020 09:13AM

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@ethang5

Hey Mr Ethan your starting to backslide.....Ease up on the personal attacks....As it will only end up with another 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness..

And are you up late or up early..... Are the thoughts of all those Syrian Jihadists keeping you awake?

Me.... I'm waiting for the carpet fitter.

#144

ethang5

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ethang5

12.22.2020 09:33AM

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@zedvictor4

Hey Mr Ethan your starting to backslide.....Ease up on the personal attacks....As it will only end up with another 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness..

Thanks Z-man, but you and Willows put way more value in ability to post here than I do. That is why the mods act as if they are Smeg, sitting on a treasure.

And are you up late or up early..... Are the thoughts of all those Syrian Jihadists keeping you awake?

Why would any sort of jihadist keep me awake? Most of the world is not as run over with jihadists as England is. Only sheep or soldiers get killed by jihadists.

#145

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

12.22.2020 09:39AM

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@ethang5

Luckily, I don't live in England.

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#146

Stephen

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Stephen

12.22.2020 09:42AM

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@ethang5

Only sheep or soldiers get killed by jihadists.

You really are disgustingly fkn ignorant at times aren't you. You will say just about anything for wont of a reply and as long as it serves you as a response. You are absolutely disgusting and vile!!!

Those "sheep" you mention also happen to be hundreds of thousands of Christians that are being murdered all over the fkn globe by jihadists.

You was bragging not long ago how Christianity was expanding in African and the east, yet here you are mocking & deriding - if not celebrating - the deaths of hundreds of thousands of gods Christian "sheep". I think you are ill, I really do.

#147

ethang5

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ethang5

12.22.2020 09:49AM

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