Does Christianity present salvation as a whole, in the afterlife, or are Christians saved while being saved? For instance, is man's spirit saved by the Holy Spirit, saving the body and soul? For somewhere it says the spirit returns unto God, and elsewhere, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Saved or Saved Being Saved?
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@Lit
As things stand "Christianity" is just a club based upon one creation hypothesis....And the club book has yet to be verified.....Afterlife like GODS is an assumption, and there are various hypothetical afterlife and GOD formats.
Nonetheless given the nature of Christian texts and their disjointed compilation, contradiction and misinterpretation is only to be expected....So make of Christian texts what you want to make of them....It's the beauty of the religion.
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@zedvictor4
As things stand "Christianity" is just a club
To beat arrogant Christians over the head with when they deny even their own bibles facts.
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@Lit
Does Christianity present salvation as a whole, in the afterlife, or are Christians saved while being saved? For instance, is man's spirit saved by the Holy Spirit, saving the body and soul? For somewhere it says the spirit returns unto God, and elsewhere, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Thats a very good question what you asked because when you are saved only a true christian can be saved and go to heaven and his boy will be saved and his spirit will be saved too because the body will be immacculate and glowing and dressed in white. But if you are not saved it is your fault because you did not want to be saved because you did not get saved by Jesus and then your body will be saved alright but it will be saved in hell when a drop of water will not touch your tung and your teeth will nash. But your soul it will not destroy because hell is eternal to and your body will burn but it will keep burning for eternity.
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@Utanity
Does Christianity present salvation as a whole, in the afterlife, or are Christians saved while being saved? For instance, is man's spirit saved by the Holy Spirit, saving the body and soul? For somewhere it says the spirit returns unto God, and elsewhere, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.Thats a very good question what you asked because when you are saved only a true christian can be saved and go to heaven and his boy will be saved and his spirit will be saved too because the body will be immacculate and glowing and dressed in white. But if you are not saved it is your fault because you did not want to be saved because you did not get saved by Jesus and then your body will be saved alright but it will be saved in hell when a drop of water will not touch your tung and your teeth will nash. But your soul it will not destroy because hell is eternal to and your body will burn but it will keep burning for eternity.
Yes, but do Christians experience salvation in the present life or is salvation something only to be experienced after death? If the latter, then in what way does the Spirit testify with a Christian's that they are saved, as is mentioned in the new testament?
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@Lit
Salvation for the Christian is simple and complex.
God is eternal. Humans are time creatures. Hence when we look at something - we consider in the past, the present and the future. For God - there is no particular distinction between the three. And in the Scriptures - He works in both time and eternity.
Christians talk about being saved. We talk about being saved. And we talk about the fact that we will be saved.
Jesus died on the cross to secure salvation. This is past history. Yet in our lives - we continue to sin. And when we die or Jesus returns, and when we are in heaven there will be no more sin.
Christians also talk about salvation, sanctification, and glorification to describe these three aspects of time. They are at times used interchangeably. For instance when Paul says - work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word salvation is not getting saved - so far as the process of sanctification.
Salvation begins in the past - and never ends. It is everlasting. Hence when people trust Jesus - they are saved from that moment on - everlasting.
I think it is inaccurate to use the term eternal life for Christians. Not a heresy. But unhelpful - since it mixes eternity with time, the divine with the human.
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@Tradesecret
Salvation begins in the past - and never ends. It is everlasting. Hence when people trust Jesus - they are saved from that moment on - everlasting.
You cant get salvation in the past because the scientists prove that you cant go back and if you have to get salavtion in the past then you will not get salvation so you are being dum. Then you cant get salvation that is everlasting because what if you get salvation then you change your mind then start to call god a scum then you will go to hell so that is even dumer.
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@Lit
Yes, but do Christians experience salvation in the present life or is salvation something only to be experienced after death? If the latter, then in what way does the Spirit testify with a Christian's that they are saved, as is mentioned in the new testament?
When a true christian gets salvation you will no it because God will choose you and you cannot deny it or take it back and you will glow and that experience is true and will stay with you if you are true to God so that when you die you just go to heaven anyway.
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@Utanity
Salvation begins in the past - and never ends. It is everlasting. Hence when people trust Jesus - they are saved from that moment on - everlasting.You cant get salvation in the past because the scientists prove that you cant go back and if you have to get salavtion in the past then you will not get salvation so you are being dum. Then you cant get salvation that is everlasting because what if you get salvation then you change your mind then start to call god a scum then you will go to hell so that is even dumer.
Hey Utanity,
please tell me, how does one get salvation?
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@Tradesecret
please tell me, how does one get salvation?
No many people can get salvation but they must be true to the true god and they get picked on by the true God then you cant go back so thats when you have salvation and you are a true christian .
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@Utanity
please tell me, how does one get salvation?No many people can get salvation but they must be true to the true god and they get picked on by the true God then you cant go back so thats when you have salvation and you are a true christian .
Can you explain that a little better. I am pretty dumb and don't understand.
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@Tradesecret
Ha ha I'm pretty dumb to so thats alright but its like you dont have only one person that gets salvation because there are lots more and you dont have to understand because it is just what happens when god makes salvation for you but you know when it happens and it is true. Ask not what the Lord does for you Exodus 27.
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@zedvictor4
As things stand "Christianity" is just a club based upon one creation hypothesis....And the club book has yet to be verified.....
It would be more accurate to say a collection of clubs with a collection of books of varying editions and translations and a career total fan base that surely must be in trillions by now... And growing....
If you've ever been a part of a club with devoted members, you'll know that all these are crucial elements for insuring generations disjointed doctrine. "Sorry Dad, I kinda like episode 2&3. Can we just not talk about the last one and eat dinner?" To be fair, what kind of thousand year logistics were we expecting when the original authors (aside from God) were stone/iron age working class slaves?
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@Lit
This seems like a Schrodinger's cat situation. You can conclude that God always knows the status of your salvation and gives you everything to obtain it. You are in equal danger of being saved AND not saved, not "or". The spirit- logical conclusion is to maintain faith, and proceed forward in life cautiously and righteously as possible... Kinda like what the book said to do!
A logic problem that's actually a map, leading God's children back to him.
Essentially the entire "saved" thing is bullshit, god was the one who supposedly put us in this position, therefore would be no need to be saved if god wasn't an apparent asshole.
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@Tradesecret
Salvation for the Christian is simple and complex.God is eternal. Humans are time creatures. Hence when we look at something - we consider in the past, the present and the future. For God - there is no particular distinction between the three. And in the Scriptures - He works in both time and eternity.
Are we time creatures presently, because there's death? Man may think in the past present and future, but we also ponder a whole lot about eternity, and faith is an eternal venture because it deals with the afterlife. Wouldn't this equate to us being eternal as well?
Christians talk about being saved. We talk about being saved. And we talk about the fact that we will be saved.Jesus died on the cross to secure salvation. This is past history. Yet in our lives - we continue to sin. And when we die or Jesus returns, and when we are in heaven there will be no more sin.
In 1st John it outlines that those who live in him won't continue to sin. I imagine this is referring only to willful sin.
Christians also talk about salvation, sanctification, and glorification to describe these three aspects of time. They are at times used interchangeably. For instance when Paul says - work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word salvation is not getting saved - so far as the process of sanctification.Salvation begins in the past - and never ends. It is everlasting. Hence when people trust Jesus - they are saved from that moment on - everlasting.I think it is inaccurate to use the term eternal life for Christians. Not a heresy. But unhelpful - since it mixes eternity with time, the divine with the human.
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@Theweakeredge
Essentially the entire "saved" thing is bullshit, god was the one who supposedly put us in this position, therefore would be no need to be saved if god wasn't an apparent asshole.
God did not put in this situation. He place humanity in a good situation. They are the ones who stuffed up.
God put them on notice - before they stuffed up. And God tells the truth. Surely you would not think God would lie?
But perhaps you would be more comfortable if God did lie?
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@Tradesecret
Question, did or did not the Christian god make humanity?
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@Lit
I would say you're correct in your reference to 1 John.
To try and add to that, at least in my interpretation open to correction.
If a saved person continues in wilful sin, they will still be saved, but will need to undergo a severe process before being received into eternal joy.
I base this on the man found in adultery in 1 Corinthians. I think Paul gave him the benefit of the doubt as far as being a believer, and suggested that he needed extreme circumstances to bring him to that place where God could deal with his heart.
He was to be removed from fellowship, and face a sort of destruction from the expert on that which is Satan. To be removed from fellowship, and turned over to Satan is very serious.
Easy believism, I believe, is a false term as far as reality is concerned. Salvation in one sense is easy, and in another quite hard. The salvation is solid, but the outcome of living in darkness presents severe hardship.
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@Lit
Are we time creatures presently, because there's death? Man may think in the past present and future, but we also ponder a whole lot about eternity, and faith is an eternal venture because it deals with the afterlife. Wouldn't this equate to us being eternal as well?
This is a pretty valid question. Our presence and perception is planted in a "now" and propelled forward. But you're free to conceive all temporal states and eternity as a whole via recollection and reckoning. So where does your "soul live"? If it-- the actual you-- lives in an eternal state... It must be already/eternally saved, yes?
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@Theweakeredge
Do you think God gave humanity free will or not?
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@Theweakeredge
I have children. Did I think before I had children, that they might turn out to be a mass murderer? The position is possible. Did this stop me from having children? No.
Now if I knew that my child WOULD be a mass murderer - would it be right or wrong to have the child?
I think that if I decided not to have a child before they became a mass murderer because I knew this was going to be the case - that I have determined their fate before they actually commit any offences.
I don't think it is just to judge someone before they commit an offence. For them to be judged prior to committing the offence - even if I know that they are going to commit the offence - then this is unjust.
If I knew that Jo down the street was going to kill someone, is it my moral duty to stop that from happening? If I can. Yes. Why though? Is the knowledge I possess - does it make me culpable if I don't do something about it? What if I know that homosexuality is a sin against God? Should I stop that person down the road doing it or not? At what point is my knowledge make me culpable or not?
Or are the laws of the land - more important than the laws of God?
How can God be culpable for anything that his creation does - if he gives them free will? Surely they are culpable and not God? That is what the Bible says. But why should it be different?
just because we can stop something from doing something - why should that make us culpable or not? Surely the person doing the wrong - is the one who is responsible?
If I saw someone about to touch my daughter - I would do everything to stop that from happening. But would that be a moral position or a legal responsibility?
If I knew it was going to destroy her life - would it have been better if I had never had a daughter in the first place. If I knew it was going to happen - would it be wrong to let my daughter be born? After all, that would be my decision.
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@RoderickSpode
I would say you're correct in your reference to 1 John.To try and add to that, at least in my interpretation open to correction.If a saved person continues in wilful sin, they will still be saved, but will need to undergo a severe process before being received into eternal joy.I base this on the man found in adultery in 1 Corinthians. I think Paul gave him the benefit of the doubt as far as being a believer, and suggested that he needed extreme circumstances to bring him to that place where God could deal with his heart.He was to be removed from fellowship, and face a sort of destruction from the expert on that which is Satan. To be removed from fellowship, and turned over to Satan is very serious.
That passage in 1st Corinthians 5, the fifth verse has the word may instead of will except in a few translations. May never necessitates will. What those other translations might have in mind is this: the only real possibility of saving a Christian's waywardness is through being given over to Satan, and so the word will would bring out the implication of hope. We say things with conviction like this all the time for things we know works but not everytime. Punishment works, but it's up to the punished to recognize its justness.
Easy believism, I believe, is a false term as far as reality is concerned. Salvation in one sense is easy, and in another quite hard. The salvation is solid, but the outcome of living in darkness presents severe hardship.
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@Lit
That passage in 1st Corinthians 5, the fifth verse has the word may instead of will except in a few translations. May never necessitates will
A problem with saying "will" is it would require knowing the person was a genuine believer, or having a revelation that they will "become" a believer.
I think the text suggests that Paul may have had doubts about the person's stance as a believer.
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@KeLu777
It might be accurate to say billions.
And if population increases then indoctrination will increase proportionately, obviously relative to the breeding tendencies of certain sub-groupings.
So there will undoubtedly be similar increases in the Christian, Islam and Atheist clubs....Though which one becomes the most popular club depends primarily on who breeds the quickest.
Nonetheless, the enjoyment of, and devotion to historical fiction is what it is.....Living in the past.
It's the very select clever club that moves things forward.
And a GOD looks down in amazement, and says what the F**K....And chuckles to itself.
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@zedvictor4
The Abrahamic faiths neither outbreed, nor overpowered them by great force. Quite simply, they outlived their competition/captors, and made themselves an ernest labor force. They're the working class religions, paving roads and laying brick. They excelled at masonry, carpentry, farming, medicine, record keeping, law, money lending, all through a curious exchange of religions cultural tendencies, for enslavement to history's worst oppressors. The Jews have proven countless times that the designated scapegoat will survive in the end.
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@KeLu777
People breed and people endure....Faith in a limited hypothesis is an accompaniment....And the transfer of data is inevitable...And the relevance of data is only relevant to what it is relevant to.
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@Tradesecret
@Utanity wrote; No many people can get salvation but they must be true to the true god and they get picked on by the true God then you cant go back so thats when you have salvation and you are a true christian .Can you explain that a little better. I am pretty dumb and don't understand.
I see you let the edit clock runout on you again there , Reverend
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@Lit
Does Christianity present salvation as a whole, in the afterlife, or are Christians saved while being saved?
Christians can never make their minds up when it comes what they call to being "saved".
For instance, when the subject of "innocent" children being killed for no reason by god or anyone else, Christians stampede to tell us that the children "weren't innocent" as we are all sinful because our ancestor/s had listened to a snake instead of god.
Ok let's accept that on the face of it, for now.
But then along comes John the Baptist, seemingly without any authority, teaching people to pray going around baptising others in a ritual that scriptures says washes away our sins as long as we repent and believe Example:
Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
and to make this clear Paul in says the same in ( Acts 22:16)
as does Peter (Acts 2:38)
and Lukes gospel (Luke 3:3)
So here we now are, according to the above, cleansed of our sins , all's forgiven all back in the state of innocents. It must have felt like they had been born all over again to those sinners. Nice and clean just out the wrapper, lovely, brilliant and absolute smashing we are all going to heaven or paradise, take your pick.
But then, along comes Jesus/ God and son of himself. He speaks a few bias and contradictory parables, tell us to give all our hard earned worldly goods to the poor while the bible tells us the end is nigh (which one has to wonder how giving away one's worldly goods benefits the poor if the end is just around the corner) and love him/god and one another and THEN! Christians tell us that - after being beaten to within to inches of his life , he suffered the most HORRIFIC execution ever dreamed up by man AND - HE - DIED!?
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [ that would be giving himself as ransom for himself], that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
WHY? Well you may well ask , Lit. By all accounts it was to "save us from our sins" that we didn't even have ! That is if we are to believe Mark 1:4 & Peter (Acts 2:38) & (Luke 3:3) & John 3:16 & ( Acts 22:16)
What is anyone to make of this garbled nonsense?
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@Tradesecret
It doesn't matter. Free Will that is, because according to your own god we don't really "choose" anything. There is a set plan by god and everything will go according to that plan. The bible was the first source of determinism. Lmao